From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

[Mladen]

We still have Dr. Pepper doing Lollys and Queen Cersei I on Shae.

Has anyone talked about Lysa`s influence? I mean her death was ultimate lesson for Sansa...

[brashcandy]

Has anyone talked about Lysa`s influence? I mean her death was ultimate lesson for Sansa...

Yes, Lady Lea looked at Lysa :)

[Lyanna Stark]

All Starks have similar paths...It`s the same thing with Bran and Winterfell...Crippled but not dead, burnt but not utterly destroyed...Catelyn is somewhere between life and death, and Arya is faceless as she is Stark. The Starks are well aware that Winter is coming, and that makes them more resilient to all the crappy things that happenned to them...

I'm not completely convinced Cat should be counted among the Starks anymore. She seems like a cross between a angry Revenant and the Angel of Death to me. Sure, she's after saving Sansa and Arya, but what then? Is she just going to go "Oh great to see you again, toodeloo, need to be off killing me some Freys." I'm of two minds on whether UnCat should ever see her daughters again. Also Sansa's arc so far has been so incredibly magic free I wonder if GRRM will break that trend with her. On the other hand, Jaime's has been mostly magic free too, but he's up for a date with UnCat any time soon.

[Lady Lea]

I'm not completely convinced Cat should be counted among the Starks anymore. She seems like a cross between a angry Revenant and the Angel of Death to me. Sure, she's after saving Sansa and Arya, but what then? Is she just going to go "Oh great to see you again, toodeloo, need to be off killing me some Freys." I'm of two minds on whether UnCat should ever see her daughters again. Also Sansa's arc so far has been so incredibly magic free I wonder if GRRM will break that trend with her. On the other hand, Jaime's has been mostly magic free too, but he's up for a date with UnCat any time soon.

I wonder if UnCat finds out about Sansa being with LF if she'll try to take her, or she'll think Sansa's safe with a friend of the family and just leave it.

[Mladen]

Yes, Lady Lea looked at Lysa :)

God, how did I ommit that? Oh, I know, in 3 days, we have 300 posts :)

I'm not completely convinced Cat should be counted among the Starks anymore.

Me too. But she was Stark during the most of her life, so I was thinking of that. But, it`s quite nice parallel between all Stark children...Bran, and Arya, Sansa and Winterfell...

I wonder if UnCat finds out about Sansa being with LF if she'll try to take her, or she'll think Sansa's safe with a friend of the family and just leave it.

She`ll never leave her with LF. Also, she have lost herself...I mean, does she really know what`s best for her kids?

[1234567]

Sorry I've been out of the discussion, but has anyone done Lady Tanda? It's a small exchange, but it is one of the few times we see anyone at Court actually revealing that they feel sorry for her, or what they truly think of her.

[Lady Lea]

God, how did I ommit that? Oh, I know, in 3 days, we have 300 posts :)

I think it was in the old thread!

Sorry I've been out of the discussion, but has anyone done Lady Tanda? It's a small exchange, but it is one of the few times we see anyone at Court actually revealing that they feel sorry for her, or what they truly think of her.

No one has. Maybe you could do one about the ladies in court, including Tanda?

[Kittykatknits]

I disagree that the character doesn't need to identify something as erotic for it to be erotic. Sansa is simply not sexually mature enough to think it is, and if she is, she's not telling us. She's not telling us her physical state when she thinks and dreams about Sandor, and to me, that's the very definition of an erotic desire. I think the only thing I can do as a reader is recognize the potential for it, but give Sansa the benefit of figuring it out for herself. And, for what it's worth, Sandor may not be at the end of all this. It may be a waystation to a different relationship.

Well if we're waiting for these characters to tell us everything they're thinking and feeling, some of which they can't even recognize or admit for themselves, then we might as well pour our analytical skills down the drain. Kittykatknits has mentioned already how the limited 3rd person POV can be misleading and restrictive concerning what we learn about these characters. You're right when you highlight that Sansa is still a young girl grappling with these feelings, but we as readers can perform independent analysis of these signs and what they signify/symbolise. Just because Martin chooses to have Sansa give an ambiguous reaction to the dream doesn't mean that we cannot recognize an erotic dream for what it is. I have always noted that Sansa's feelings for Sandor are still confusing, and that she's not fully aware of them yet, or what they could be, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... I am fully behind giving Sansa the benefit of figuring it out, but as readers we operate on a metatextual basis, looking at foreshadowing, conversations, dreams, etc, and can therefore reach a conclusion of sorts.

If things were that clearly defined in ASOIAF, we would not have spent up to 12 years discussing them. There are still battles raging about Dany's prophecies in the HoTU and I think I read my first discussion about that in 1999. GRRM loves to leave things unsaid, or unthought and ambiguous.

<snip>

Even if she has not considered in depth what is and isn't appropriate or acceptable outside of marriage, we have seen her take a rather accepting stance towards Cat having slept with LF. The one thing she seems to hold against LF here is that if he really loved her mother, he would not marry Lysa. The problems and possibilities that surround marriage and love in Westeros have been central to Sansa's story arc so far, as well, more so than any other character arc so I think it is relevant to look specifically for clues regarding this in the text. It's a bit like reading Dany with the issues surrounding women ruling in their own right in mind, or Dany/Jon/Cersei in AFFC/ADWD with leadership problems and what it does to you in mind. There are other things to look for, too, but these are the main themes.

You both brought up some great points when it comes to reading Sansa as a character that have had me thinking quite a bit. This reminds me of another discussion in a different thread on Sansa fighting the patriarchy. Dany was brought in as well as an alternate example and it became clear that some were expecting statements from the characters that would indicate a conscious decision to fight patriarchy. I don't think we are going to get it, that's not Martin's style. With ASOIAF, what's written directly on the page is the untruth, the things that are truly important are shown - not said, and finally the 3rd person limited can be very misleading as it can influence the perceptions and opinions of readers.

Martin has said more than once that he wrote these books in such a manner that they really need to be read more than once and that's a very accurate statement. We are not going to get statements from Sansa that show she understands that she had an erotic dream. Rather, she'll just have the dream. It's our job as readers to figure that out. This approach appears over and over again within the books. In Sansa's storyline we have the death of King Turd. LF tells us a bit of what happened, but the true story is spread across multiple books, multiple chapters and multiple POVs. We need to piece all of that together to truly understand the sequence of events. It's the same thing with Lady. In fact, we don't learn the full story about that night until three books later when Jaime tells us in Feast.

It's the exact some rule with other chracters too. In Dance, Dany has a conversation with the GG who suggests that she marries Hizdahr. If we rely merely on what the text is telling us, the GG can be trusted and has Dany's interests at heart. But, we as readers, need to step back and remember this is merely Dany's POV and remember who the GG is. It's only when the reader does this that we see just how much the GG is threatening Dany and that she very much is not an ally. But, this fact has never been written on the page. We need to do the work ourselves.

To bring this back to Sansa a bit more, we are not going to be told that she is experiencing a sexual awakening or having erotic thoughts. We learn of this through her inner thoughts, she doesn't need to tell herself that she's having them - they are her thoughts. A very similar example is what we saw happening to Jaime in Feast. Reading the text, it is very apparent that he is breaking up with Cersei yet not once does Jaime say so nor do we need him too. But we can see what is happening and figure it out for ourselves. He's feeling lonely, thinking on their time together, having lots of bitter thoughts, trying to distract himself with other things (KG, job as LC, subduing the Riverlands), and ignoring her efforts to contact him. Plus, he's doing this in a messy, two steps forward, one step back manner. That sounds an awful lot like a breakup to me. I fully expect Sansa's storyline in this area to continue in the exact same path it has been following so far.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

It also seems to me that Sansa's capacity for bouncing back is one of her greatest strengths. Despite what she has been through, she is far from broken. In many ways it has strengthened her instead and make her better suited to weather bad situations. I know a lot of people want to project some sort of bad trauma on her, possibly do to her coming across as a more feminine type women, which then must equal mentally fragile, but I think she seems surprisingly untraumatised considering what she has been through. Arya seems to have suffered more in this regard. :(

I agree with this. Sansa, despite what she's gone through, has retained a pretty strong grip on sanity and reality. For all she's presented as the "delicate" one and Arya the "fierce" one, Arya is far more broken at this point. When I read about Arya I'm reminded of the stories of child soldiers and how traumatized they are, and how much work they need to get back to being able to function.

We haven't seen Rickon return yet so I do not know what he'll be like, but when we last saw him he was heading towards feral. Arya is a child soldier now and Bran is more and more living on another plane of existence. And of course there is UnCat. At this point Sansa is the most grounded in reality and sanity of all the Starks. Another reason I see her arc as being set up to rule in some way - even if she's not a Queen or Lady in name, I think she will be in fact.

[brashcandy]

To bring this back to Sansa a bit more, we are not going to be told that she is experiencing a sexual awakening or having erotic thoughts. We learn of this through her inner thoughts, she doesn't need to tell herself that she's having them - they are her thoughts.

Agreed. I also think it has to do with Sandor being so completely outside of her normal fantasies. Look at how comfortable she is fantasising about what she would like to do to Loras Tyrell. He fits the safe, ideal type that she's always gone for: handsome, gallant, noble born. Sandor doesn't exactly tick those boxes. However, the attraction/chemistry is still there, so these are working to fuel Sansa's dreams and thoughts, even though she can't articulate such unfamiliar desire to herself. This is why the unkiss happens perhaps. Because it's Sansa's way of "understanding" what is happening between her and Sandor. A kiss is a symbol that she can easily interpret and digest, but it's also a gateway to other things that Sansa wasn't ready for - physically or mentally at that time.

[Grail King]

Sansa has had so many near misses when it comes to sex/rape that I can't see GRRM not choosing to make her first time (if indeed he does write it into the story) a pleasant experience.

I hope you're right, but this is GRRM and so I'm on the fence ( God I hope we get a Sansa chapter soon ) Sansa has no lack of men who just want to score her.

Congrats. on 5K

[Grail King]

I think they are going to take her to the QI personally.

I found a quote from Jaime recently that I thought might provide a good hint on his fate. I was scanning through AFFC trying to find it again but don't remember where I read it. Anyways, he thinks to himself that he couldn't hurt Cersei as long as Tommen is alive because he had already lost so much. That's just a paraphrase and not an exact quote. But, I thought it might give us a hint on what leads Jaime to kill Cersei.

And brashcandy - congratulations on 5000 posts. Your request for a Leave of Absence has been formally denied. I apologize in advance for any inconvenience this may cause.

No she / you doesn't / don't :laugh:

[Grail King]

I quoted myself. What an idiot... :blushing:

Don't be harsh on yourself, I did it twice in one thread once.

[mythsandstuff]

You both brought up some great points when it comes to reading Sansa as a character that have had me thinking quite a bit. This reminds me of another discussion in a different thread on Sansa fighting the patriarchy. Dany was brought in as well as an alternate example and it became clear that some were expecting statements from the characters that would indicate a conscious decision to fight patriarchy. I don't think we are going to get it, that's not Martin's style. With ASOIAF, what's written directly on the page is the untruth, the things that are truly important are shown - not said, and finally the 3rd person limited can be very misleading as it can influence the perceptions and opinions of readers.

[/lurking]

Kittykatknits, I know you're talking about eroticism mostly, but it occurs to me that while Martin doesn't have the non-villainy characters directly fighting the patriarchy, he does actually have one doing it (and badly) in Cersei.

[lurking]

[Grail King]

All Starks have similar paths...It`s the same thing with Bran and Winterfell...Crippled but not dead, burnt but not utterly destroyed...Catelyn is somewhere between life and death, and Arya is faceless as she is Stark. The Starks are well aware that Winter is coming, and that makes them more resilient to all the crappy things that happenned to them...

Except this crop really hadn't had any real bad experiences happen to them until the King showed up, so they are finding their way blindly as they encounter all these setbacks.

As is said by the Krackens and Kelly Clarkson What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

[Lady Lea]

Except this crop really hadn't had any real bad experiences happen to them until the King showed up, so they are finding their way blindly as they encounter all these setbacks.

As is said by the Krackens and Kelly Clarkson What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Yes, the Stark children (even the older ones like Robb) were summer children. They were kind of taken unawares by all the terrible things that happen to them.

[brashcandy]

I hope you're right, but this is GRRM and so I'm on the fence ( God I hope we get a Sansa chapter soon ) Sansa has no lack of men who just want to score her.

Congrats. on 5K

Thank you :) And yes, knowing GRRM one can't be sure of anything, but I'm optimistic... I fear we're not get anything on Sansa before the actual book is published.

[/lurking]

Kittykatknits, I know you're talking about eroticism mostly, but it occurs to me that while Martin doesn't have the non-villainy characters directly fighting the patriarchy, he does actually have one doing it (and badly) in Cersei.

[lurking]

Yup. What's interesting about Cersei is that she resents the patriarchy but she also wants to assume the role of the patriarch. Cersei may have killed Robert and hated Tyrion, but it's her inability to empathise with other women and her crimes against them that really stick out like a sore thumb.

[Valkyrja]

[also lurking]

I'm traveling in Iceland w/ out constant internet at the minute, but I just wanted to pop in and say "WELL DONE!" to all and sundry for the most recent posts. Thanks so much for not only giving us quantity, but even more importantly....quality in our discussions! :D

And congrats to brashcandy on the 5k posts! :cheers: At my rate it will take me until GRRM publishes ADoS before I reach even half that amount. :P

[/back to lurking]

[Kittykatknits]

Arya is far more broken at this point. When I read about Arya I'm reminded of the stories of child soldiers and how traumatized they are, and how much work they need to get back to being able to function.

I had a chance to meet some former child soldiers while I was in college and got to know one decently well. It's a horrifying story. By the time I met them, they had been in the US for some time and were receiving lots of support through a local church organization.

I hope you're right, but this is GRRM and so I'm on the fence ( God I hope we get a Sansa chapter soon ) Sansa has no lack of men who just want to score her.

I'd love one but I don't think we will. The Tyrion, Vic, and Theon chapters extend storyline we already knew about. Sansa's will be a whole new story arc so I could see Martin keeping it to himself. Rather cruel of him though.

[/lurking]

Kittykatknits, I know you're talking about eroticism mostly, but it occurs to me that while Martin doesn't have the non-villainy characters directly fighting the patriarchy, he does actually have one doing it (and badly) in Cersei.

[lurking]

Yup. What's interesting about Cersei is that she resents the patriarchy but she also wants to assume the role of the patriarch. Cersei may have killed Robert and hated Tyrion, but it's her inability to empathise with other women and her crimes against them that really stick out like a sore thumb.

Yup, brashcandy echoes many of my thoughts. I'm not sure if I would say that Cersei is fighting the patriarchy; I think she wants to be the patriarchy, if that makes sense. She wants to be Tywin and she resented not being able to fight during the BBW. Cersei is more concerned with being in the patriarchy and doesn't seem to be concerned with changing it. She understands that she suffers but she doesn't quite make the connection that what she wants is the very thing that caused her pain. Again, brashcandy, you have the right of it on her inability to empathize. It never occurs to her that she is doing to other women what was done to her. Sansa's forced wedding is a perfect example of this.

[Caro99]

My dear Brash, congratulations on the 5K!!!

i agree with others that it would be nice for jaime & brienne to reach the QI and catch up with sandor. sansa can take SR there (is it too much to hope LF won't accompany them? he may be busy and entrust lothor and mya with sansa's care?) or sandor, jaime and brienne can go there alon with the Elder Brother to tend the ailing SR? i just have these feeling that all these characters are geographically near for a reason... but what i don't like about that is Ser Illyn being closer to sansa, and maybe not even UnCat. i am still not so sure it would be the best thing for sansa to not only have seen her father's head chop off but too also see her mother as she is now- but she is stronger than she appears, so maybe she can cope with the meeting emotionally in a way arya wouldn't be able to do so?

and yes, poor arya. she's gone through some harsh stuff and i fear at times that her story has been linked with death so much cause in the end she will either die or prefer to be a FM. but i am stil crossing my fingers for her to give that up and help re-build Winterfell... though it won't be the same for them all..

i don't remember hearing that George said his books must be read more than once, but it's so true! and that's one of the reasons i love the books: they just don't entretain you for a while. you can't let them down and have to come back to them again and again and again, and every time is just as good or even better than the previous one...