From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

[StarkWhite]

She's an idiot. She'll be dead before the end of the series.

[brashcandy]

Sigh... A reminder, this thread is for serious discussion on Sansa. If you have nothing useful or productive to contribute, please go elsewhere.

[StarkWhite]

Oh I'm sorry. I thought I was allowed to submit my opinion. I don't think she's going to be a player. I think she's going to perish. It wasn't a kick or attempt at nastiness. It's just what I think is in her future. Don't hate due to a different opinion.

[brashcandy]

Oh I'm sorry. I thought I was allowed to submit my opinion. I don't think she's going to be a player. I think she's going to perish. It wasn't a kick or attempt at nastiness. It's just what I think is in her future. Don't hate due to a different opinion.

Stating that Sansa's an idiot sounds pretty nasty to me, besides just being plain incorrect. I would recommend perusing the original re-reads and coming back when your "opinion" has been enlightened with actual facts. Until then...

[StarkWhite]

Stating that Sansa's an idiot sounds pretty nasty to me, besides just being plain incorrect. I would recommend perusing the original re-reads and coming back when your "opinion" has been enlightened with actual facts. Until then...

Oh, you mean until I've decided to agree with you? Not likely. Toodles :)

[Pod The Impaler]

I agree with this. Sansa, despite what she's gone through, has retained a pretty strong grip on sanity and reality. For all she's presented as the "delicate" one and Arya the "fierce" one, Arya is far more broken at this point. When I read about Arya I'm reminded of the stories of child soldiers and how traumatized they are, and how much work they need to get back to being able to function.

This is how I think of Arya's experiences as well - refugee, POW camp survivor, orphan, child soldier, cult member.

Her experiences are closer to that of a Khmer Rouge recruit than that of a princess.

[Monica21]

To bring this back to Sansa a bit more, we are not going to be told that she is experiencing a sexual awakening or having erotic thoughts. We learn of this through her inner thoughts, she doesn't need to tell herself that she's having them - they are her thoughts.

You said some interesting things that I removed mostly because I wanted to comment about what we read versus what we can safely assume. I do remember what it's like to be a teenage girl so as a teenage girl, I can assume, based on my own experience, what it means to dream about a man in your bed. What I don't feel comfortable doing though is reading something into the the text that isn't stated. I would call that overreading. Something may happen that destroys all of these links I've built up and then I get mad at GRRM and say "but you wrote this and then this and then your characters did something that didn't make sense!"

There was a college student who got tired of his English teachers talking about symbolism in works that he didn't see, so instead of taking the teachers words for it he wrote to the authors and asked them. Of the ones who responded, most said that any symbolism was entirely coincidental and unintentional on the author's parts.

So, is Sansa maturing sexually? Of course. How much does her sexual maturity have to do with Sandor and how much to do with the fact that she's simply growing up? I don't know, and I'm really unwilling to speculate on it. How much of her thoughts about Sandor have to do with the fact that he's the only male in her life, aside from her father, who has protected her? I don't know that either.

What I'm trying to say is that Sansa is a very interesting character apart from whatever one-line thought about her sexual awakening in a chapter otherwise filled with intrigues. Chapters filled with the politics of the Vale, with her training at Littlefinger's hand, my own questions about whether Littlefinger sees what's happening in Essos as a potential problem. She's isolated politically, allowing the Vale to be something of a training ground. She's physically safe, although whether that will continue now that they've gone below the Eyrie is anyone's guess. Her very isolation is what allows her to become a powerful and surprising force when she is revealed. How that will happen is anyone's guess and I think Sansa's story is the one with the most question marks and it's simply because of that that I find her character so fascinating.

[brashcandy]

There was a college student who got tired of his English teachers talking about symbolism in works that he didn't see, so instead of taking the teachers words for it he wrote to the authors and asked them. Of the ones who responded, most said that any symbolism was entirely coincidental and unintentional on the author's parts.

I think it has to be said that not all people will read a text in the same way, neither will everyone see the same thing. I'm also of the belief that a book isn't solely invested of meaning by an author, but the reader is a necessary, vital part in the production of meaning. Therefore, sometimes an author might not have intended for something to be read in a certain way, but that doesn't mean that the reader's interpretation is invalid or illegitimate.

Now, with respect to what is under discussion here: Whilst we get no clear cut reaction from Sansa about her dream, and while we can appreciate that she is in the early stages of sexual awakening, the symbolism of the dream itself: a naked man climbing into bed and asking for a song is overwhelming erotic. Whether Sansa appreciates the dream as such isn't necessary for it to communicate such meaning. It's also important that we see Sandor is substituting Tyrion in the dream. We know how she feels about Tyrion, so it's not hard to guess why even her subconscious isn't willing to hold unto him for long; but her feelings toward Sandor are not so clearly set out, and this dream is heavily suggestive about what those feelings could be.

So, is Sansa maturing sexually? Of course. How much does her sexual maturity have to do with Sandor and how much to do with the fact that she's simply growing up? I don't know, and I'm really unwilling to speculate on it.

But why not? We have evidence in the text that shows this sexual maturity is intimately related to Sandor, starting with the unkiss and developing into more suggestive dreams and thoughts. She's growing up, but she has an object for her desires clearly.

How much of her thoughts about Sandor have to do with the fact that he's the only male in her life, aside from her father, who has protected her? I don't know that either.

Sandor's protecting her is important, but Sansa's shown she doesn't merely transfer romantic and erotic feelings for someone because she's grateful to them. (See Dontos, Tyrion, Littlefinger). Also, Sandor is by no means a traditional guardian figure. He's rough, uncouth and brutal. He handles her gently whilst speaking to her harshly. He would be the last person you would expect a soft spoken, noble girl to fall for.

What I'm trying to say is that Sansa is a very interesting character apart from whatever one-line thought about her sexual awakening in a chapter otherwise filled with intrigues.

Preaching to the choir here, Monica :)

[Pod The Impaler]

Someone (15 pages ago ? LOL) asked me to do a write-up of Sansa in regard to her direwolf Lady, because I asked what influence / lesson Sansa had. Taking a look, the relationship is very brief, and nearly all of it comes in one Sansa chapter (the first). So I will make a comment instead...

NOTE: Don't take this brainstorming 100% seriously.

I think Lady was quite an influence on Sansa, brief though it was. It's already been covered about 100 times that the direwolves each take after their Stark owners and vice-versa; they exist in a symbiotic relationship with them.

At one point Septa Mordane commented "You're a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature, you're as willful as your sister Arya." Sansa had just made a point of noting this Lady was not a dog, but a direwolf - whether that was her just sassing her elder, or whether she herself did not view Lady as a pet dog, is hard to say.

Later on in the same chapter, we see a scene where "anxious to see, Sansa let Lady clear a path through the crowd. people moved aside hastily for the direwolf."

Sansa is frightened by Ser Ilyn and being laughed at, and Lady growls at those around her, protecting her. Sansa seemed to instinctively fear Ser Ilyn the moment she met him, and Lady seemed to instinctively dislike him. As in many cases, the direwolf seems to have instincts that are more than just protective, but predictive. Ser Ilyn cultivates a fearsome aspect as well as the Hound, but Sansa seems able to deal with him better. (This despite the fact the Hound did more to actually menace.)

What I see here is that Sansa views Lady as being more than a pet. She is able to use Lady as an extension of her own nobility. Direwolf as nobility versus common hounds, and indeed the crowd parts for her wolf as they should for her - Sansa seems to make this connection or use this technique without thinking. Sansa / Lady is an instinctual connection, and of course when she leaves Lady behind to go riding with Joffrey, not only does trouble follow, but if you recall, she gets there after lies and says to Joffrey she loves riding when she really doesn't.

Perhaps this too a predictor of her later being false about what Arya did, and from that moment on, she finds herself immersed more and more in a world of lies and falseness. Does Sansa have any sort of predictive powers or instincts ?

One wonders. When in ADWD, you see from the Varamyr Sixskins prologue that a warg and a skinchanger are so close, that when one dies, not only does the shock and pain get transferred into the other, but their personality / soul does to some degree as well. What part of Lady's soul might Sansa have absorbed ? Any? Is it that part which dropped her submissiveness and told Joffrey that perhaps Robb would bring her Joffrey's head ? A mostly gentle creature baring its teeth when hurt or afraid ? The part of her which is naturally regal and seems able to lead others ?

It is hard to say. Of all the Starks, Sansa probably had the least time to be with hers. Beyond the supernatural element, what did she really learn from Lady, except from seeing an image of herself as a wolf ? Perhaps the (eventual) realization that one does not have to be malicious to come to great harm. When she remembers Lady and misses her, it is more than just protection and companionship that can be substituted by the Hound and others; maybe she is remembering a better and more noble version of herself, one that had not yet gone down the wrong path.

[Lyanna Stark]

Damn Pod, that was a post full of awesomeness and really thoughtprovoking stuff (and I am out of likes as always). I love your theory.

Someone (15 pages ago ? LOL) asked me to do a write-up of Sansa in regard to her direwolf Lady, because I asked what influence / lesson Sansa had. Taking a look, the relationship is very brief, and nearly all of it comes in one Sansa chapter (the first). So I will make a comment instead...

NOTE: Don't take this brainstorming 100% seriously.

I think Lady was quite an influence on Sansa, brief though it was. It's already been covered about 100 times that the direwolves each take after their Stark owners and vice-versa; they exist in a symbiotic relationship with them.

At one point Septa Mordane commented "You're a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature, you're as willful as your sister Arya." Sansa had just made a point of noting this Lady was not a dog, but a direwolf - whether that was her just sassing her elder, or whether she herself did not view Lady as a pet dog, is hard to say.

I think this is a really interesting catch, because that could alwaos be extended to mean that Sansa, like Lady, is not a Lady but really a direwolf. She might look a Lady, but underneath there is something else.

Later on in the same chapter, we see a scene where "anxious to see, Sansa let Lady clear a path through the crowd. people moved aside hastily for the direwolf."

Sansa is frightened by Ser Ilyn and being laughed at, and Lady growls at those around her, protecting her. Sansa seemed to instinctively fear Ser Ilyn the moment she met him, and Lady seemed to instinctively dislike him. As in many cases, the direwolf seems to have instincts that are more than just protective, but predictive. Ser Ilyn cultivates a fearsome aspect as well as the Hound, but Sansa seems able to deal with him better. (This despite the fact the Hound did more to actually menace.)

What I see here is that Sansa views Lady as being more than a pet. She is able to use Lady as an extension of her own nobility. Direwolf as nobility versus common hounds, and indeed the crowd parts for her wolf as they should for her - Sansa seems to make this connection or use this technique without thinking. Sansa / Lady is an instinctual connection, and of course when she leaves Lady behind to go riding with Joffrey, not only does trouble follow, but if you recall, she gets there after lies and says to Joffrey she loves riding when she really doesn't.

Good point on how the direwolves not only protect, but seem to be able to predict badness. The fearsome aspect is interesting too, I think, since the direwolves are pretty fearsome. Even Lady, as gentle as she was, was still a direwolf, who would grow up to be a killer and a hunter. If we look at the other Direwolves alive: Nymeria, Summer, Ghost and Shaggydog, they're definitely not small gentle creatures. They can be extremely loyal and good companions, but to their enemies they are brutal, hulking monsters who can easily rip someone's throat out.

Perhaps this too a predictor of her later being false about what Arya did, and from that moment on, she finds herself immersed more and more in a world of lies and falseness. Does Sansa have any sort of predictive powers or instincts ?

I know Rapsie has put forward before that Sansa is the Deanna Troi of Westeros, i.e. that she has some of the talents of an empath, in that she can sense people's feelings. It could also explain that she sometimes seem to act on what she desribes as instinct, for instance when she saves Dontos, reaches out to Sandor or manages to calm the ladies during the Battle of the Blackwater.

One wonders. When in ADWD, you see from the Varamyr Sixskins prologue that a warg and a skinchanger are so close, that when one dies, not only does the shock and pain get transferred into the other, but their personality / soul does to some degree as well. What part of Lady's soul might Sansa have absorbed ? Any? Is it that part which dropped her submissiveness and told Joffrey that perhaps Robb would bring her Joffrey's head ? A mostly gentle creature baring its teeth when hurt or afraid ? The part of her which is naturally regal and seems able to lead others ?

It is hard to say. Of all the Starks, Sansa probably had the least time to be with hers. Beyond the supernatural element, what did she really learn from Lady, except from seeing an image of herself as a wolf ? Perhaps the (eventual) realization that one does not have to be malicious to come to great harm. When she remembers Lady and misses her, it is more than just protection and companionship that can be substituted by the Hound and others; maybe she is remembering a better and more noble version of herself, one that had not yet gone down the wrong path.

I often think that she misses Lady as a symbol of home, of what she was, but also for the practical side of companionship and protection. I do like your theory of how she remembers a more noble, innocent version of herself though. She seems so bitter when she's meeting with the Tyrell ladies about her lost innocence and childishness, and later on in the Eyrie she thinks the same thing. We have a similar scene with Arya when she is travelling with the Hound, and this kid follows her around with a doll and Arya gets really angry about it. It's really sad how both Sansa and Arya have been so robbed of growing up safely with their family.

[Jolene Brown]

Has the question of how Arya would respond to a meaningful relationship between Sandor and Sansa, if that happened and they are all re-united, ever been discussed?

[Lyanna Stark]

Has the question of how Arya would respond to a meaningful relationship between Sandor and Sansa, if that happened and they are all re-united, ever been discussed?

Not in this thread particularly, but in other places, like this one, so any particular discussions on that can probably be confined to that thread unless it's discussed as a part in illuminating Sansa's arc.

EDIT: fail linking is fail.

[A...]

At one point Septa Mordane commented "You're a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature, you're as willful as your sister Arya." Sansa had just made a point of noting this Lady was not a dog, but a direwolf - whether that was her just sassing her elder, or whether she herself did not view Lady as a pet dog, is hard to say.

Great analysis, Pod, I loved reading your thoughts on Lady!

I find it really touching how the direwolves represent some common ground between the sisters so early on in the story, when we've been seeing them being somewhat petty to one another (as sisters often are) just a few pages previously and especially so when the comment on this similarity comes from the septa - a person who has many times contributed to discord between Arya and Sansa in the past (praising one over the other and being generally prone to favouritism).

One wonders. When in ADWD, you see from the Varamyr Sixskins prologue that a warg and a skinchanger are so close, that when one dies, not only does the shock and pain get transferred into the other, but their personality / soul does to some degree as well. What part of Lady's soul might Sansa have absorbed ? Any? Is it that part which dropped her submissiveness and told Joffrey that perhaps Robb would bring her Joffrey's head ? A mostly gentle creature baring its teeth when hurt or afraid ? The part of her which is naturally regal and seems able to lead others ?

This is a very interesting thought. I definitely see some of the wolf present in Sansa when she's making the descent from the Eyrie - she mentions something about how Sansa would have been afraid, but Alayne is bastard brave, but this statement seems more like an idle thought, somehow disconnected any deeper feelings. We know Sansa manages to chat easily with Randa while making the journey down the mountain and bravely crosses over the narrow stone ledge with the precipice to either side, which left her mother closing her eyes in fear and having to be led blindly by Mya (bearing in mind Catelyn must have been to the Eyrie more than once and this was Sansa's first time coming down in conjunction with the fact that Sansa's descent was at the beginning of Winter, while Catelyn's was still in Summer/Autumn this seems to me pretty good evidence supporting possible wolfish bravery in Sansa).

And on a completely unrelated note, a belated congratulations to Brashcandy on 5000 posts, these discussions would not be the same without you! :)

[Mladen]

Someone (15 pages ago ? LOL) asked me to do a write-up of Sansa in regard to her direwolf Lady, because I asked what influence / lesson Sansa had. Taking a look, the relationship is very brief, and nearly all of it comes in one Sansa chapter (the first). So I will make a comment instead...

NOTE: Don't take this brainstorming 100% seriously.

I think Lady was quite an influence on Sansa, brief though it was. It's already been covered about 100 times that the direwolves each take after their Stark owners and vice-versa; they exist in a symbiotic relationship with them.

At one point Septa Mordane commented "You're a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature, you're as willful as your sister Arya." Sansa had just made a point of noting this Lady was not a dog, but a direwolf - whether that was her just sassing her elder, or whether she herself did not view Lady as a pet dog, is hard to say.

Later on in the same chapter, we see a scene where "anxious to see, Sansa let Lady clear a path through the crowd. people moved aside hastily for the direwolf."

Sansa is frightened by Ser Ilyn and being laughed at, and Lady growls at those around her, protecting her. Sansa seemed to instinctively fear Ser Ilyn the moment she met him, and Lady seemed to instinctively dislike him. As in many cases, the direwolf seems to have instincts that are more than just protective, but predictive. Ser Ilyn cultivates a fearsome aspect as well as the Hound, but Sansa seems able to deal with him better. (This despite the fact the Hound did more to actually menace.)

What I see here is that Sansa views Lady as being more than a pet. She is able to use Lady as an extension of her own nobility. Direwolf as nobility versus common hounds, and indeed the crowd parts for her wolf as they should for her - Sansa seems to make this connection or use this technique without thinking. Sansa / Lady is an instinctual connection, and of course when she leaves Lady behind to go riding with Joffrey, not only does trouble follow, but if you recall, she gets there after lies and says to Joffrey she loves riding when she really doesn't.

Perhaps this too a predictor of her later being false about what Arya did, and from that moment on, she finds herself immersed more and more in a world of lies and falseness. Does Sansa have any sort of predictive powers or instincts ?

One wonders. When in ADWD, you see from the Varamyr Sixskins prologue that a warg and a skinchanger are so close, that when one dies, not only does the shock and pain get transferred into the other, but their personality / soul does to some degree as well. What part of Lady's soul might Sansa have absorbed ? Any? Is it that part which dropped her submissiveness and told Joffrey that perhaps Robb would bring her Joffrey's head ? A mostly gentle creature baring its teeth when hurt or afraid ? The part of her which is naturally regal and seems able to lead others ?

It is hard to say. Of all the Starks, Sansa probably had the least time to be with hers. Beyond the supernatural element, what did she really learn from Lady, except from seeing an image of herself as a wolf ? Perhaps the (eventual) realization that one does not have to be malicious to come to great harm. When she remembers Lady and misses her, it is more than just protection and companionship that can be substituted by the Hound and others; maybe she is remembering a better and more noble version of herself, one that had not yet gone down the wrong path.

First, Pod, no one asked you, we have just encouraged you. After all, it was your idea...And, may I say, it was indeed pleasure to read it. Well done...

Sansa`s surname is Stark. I always think people somehow forget this. Once, when I discussed Arya-Sansa relationship, I said that Arya may have Stark looks, but it is Sansa who really understands Stark philosophy and those words "Winter is coming". Sansa`s exterior may be tame and warm as in any southern girl...But, deep down, in the essence of her being she is strong and harsh as winter, everlasting as the home she left. Also, Lady represente connection with her Stark side, and once she lost it, it was far more difficult for her to prepare for everything that`s coming (including winter). But, she has done impossible and survived KL on her alone.

One of the main reasons why people were so sad when Lady got killed, it was because of all direwolfs, she was the tamest. Her beauty and grace, unlike her siblings, is quite noticable...What I want to say is that Lady represented Sansa completelly. Her beauty may have hidden her teeth, but they were there and everyone knew it...Much like Sansa, she`s just another beautiful girl, but she `s Stark of Winterfell, and even after her family has been slaughtered, she was dangerous (what Tywin Lannister wonderfully noticed).

Also, about Lady`s soul being absorbed by Sansa...That`s actually a great thinking. All others (Bran, Jon, Robb, Arya) had their direwolfs next to them, they used them in many ways, and by befriending them, they started to explore not just warging abilities, than just wild Stark side...one that comes from calling Starks the wolves...wild side, one that`s guided by your own instincts...Sansa didn`t have that. She didn`t have a protector, someone who would warn her, like others. But, she has all of that even without direwolf. Sansa hasn`t become just perceptive, her survival instincts have become through the books better and better...Her naivite was exchanged by her perception, and more importantly her instints. Because, it was after all, her instincts who let LF take her anywhere he wants...She learnt them on harder way, but she have learnt them, which is the most important thing...

Throughout the books, I have seen little girl Sansa was being replaced by someone who is far more instinctive and perceptive, someone like a wolf...It was her Lady side, when Hound un/kissed her, it was Lady, when she refused to bow in front of Tyrion, it was Lady when she built an entire wall of courtesy to Tyrion...And yes, it is Lady, who will never allow complete transformation into Alayne...

[Kittykatknits]

I think Lady was quite an influence on Sansa, brief though it was. It's already been covered about 100 times that the direwolves each take after their Stark owners and vice-versa; they exist in a symbiotic relationship with them.

At one point Septa Mordane commented "You're a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature, you're as willful as your sister Arya." Sansa had just made a point of noting this Lady was not a dog, but a direwolf - whether that was her just sassing her elder, or whether she herself did not view Lady as a pet dog, is hard to say.

Later on in the same chapter, we see a scene where "anxious to see, Sansa let Lady clear a path through the crowd. people moved aside hastily for the direwolf."

I echo others here, this is a great post. Completely agree with you, I think Lady was and is a great influence on Sansa, even if they were together only briefly. They are very much in a symbiotic relationship. Each one influencing and reflecting the other. The feral nature of Rickon and Shaggydog was pretty obvious but Sansa had the same relationship with Lady. Ned commented that Lady was the most gentle of all the wolves yet we saw that still growled and still looked for threats. I think this is very true of Sansa, even to the point that some readers do not see past her gentle exterior.

I also really like that the first hint we see of Sansa's rebellious or stubborn nature is with her wolf. Sansa was the good girl, eager to please, doing what she is told. But, this exchange with the Septa shows that this is clearly not the case with Sansa. It's a good hint that Sansa will go after what she wants later and can be very determined. Her plan to confront her aunt comes to mind here.

Later on in the same chapter, we see a scene where "anxious to see, Sansa let Lady clear a path through the crowd. people moved aside hastily for the direwolf."

Sansa is frightened by Ser Ilyn and being laughed at, and Lady growls at those around her, protecting her. Sansa seemed to instinctively fear Ser Ilyn the moment she met him, and Lady seemed to instinctively dislike him. As in many cases, the direwolf seems to have instincts that are more than just protective, but predictive. Ser Ilyn cultivates a fearsome aspect as well as the Hound, but Sansa seems able to deal with him better. (This despite the fact the Hound did more to actually menace.)

What I see here is that Sansa views Lady as being more than a pet. She is able to use Lady as an extension of her own nobility. Direwolf as nobility versus common hounds, and indeed the crowd parts for her wolf as they should for her - Sansa seems to make this connection or use this technique without thinking. Sansa / Lady is an instinctual connection, and of course when she leaves Lady behind to go riding with Joffrey, not only does trouble follow, but if you recall, she gets there after lies and says to Joffrey she loves riding when she really doesn't.

Love that bolded sentence. I also think Martin was using this incident to tell us a bit more of the relationship each of the Stark siblings will have with their wolves. Robb and Jon failed to heed their wolves and paid a price for it. In book two, Catelyn wonders why the wolves failed to save Rickon and Bran, which should have been a big hint that there may have been a bit more to the story. I've wondered before what would have happened to Sansa if she had more time to develop her relationship with Lady.

Edited for spelling...

[Alissa]

:bowdown: @all

This is a very interesting thought. I definitely see some of the wolf present in Sansa when she's making the descent from the Eyrie - she mentions something about how Sansa would have been afraid, but Alayne is bastard brave, but this statement seems more like an idle thought, somehow disconnected any deeper feelings. We know Sansa manages to chat easily with Randa while making the journey down the mountain and bravely crosses over the narrow stone ledge with the precipice to either side, which left her mother closing her eyes in fear and having to be led blindly by Mya (bearing in mind Catelyn must have been to the Eyrie more than once and this was Sansa's first time coming down in conjunction with the fact that Sansa's descent was at the beginning of Winter, while Catelyn's was still in Summer/Autumn this seems to me pretty good evidence supporting possible wolfish bravery in Sansa).

And on a completely unrelated note, a belated congratulations to Brashcandy on 5000 posts, these discussions would not be the same without you! :)

Good point about the difference between Sansa and Catelyn here. Just another example of how Sansa is more Stark than Tully. Also, she may always think of herself as Alayne, and that Alayne is bastard brave, where Sansa would be afraid etc, but then they come to the most dangerous part of their descent and she compares the wind to the howling of a wolf:

It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.

Somehow I've always liked this.

So, yes, completely agree with you :)

[brashcandy]

And on a completely unrelated note, a belated congratulations to Brashcandy on 5000 posts, these discussions would not be the same without you! :)

Thank you A.... :grouphug:

And great post Pod! I think it's very telling that Sansa always remembers Lady in times when she's feeling frightened or lonely and confused, and notably she always manages to overcome these doubts and fears by being "a lady." The power of memory and love is perfectly exemplified in the relationship she shares with the wolf, and if we accept the theory that Sandor is Lady's replacement, it might explain the bond between them as well.

[Kittykatknits]

You said some interesting things that I removed mostly because I wanted to comment about what we read versus what we can safely assume. I do remember what it's like to be a teenage girl so as a teenage girl, I can assume, based on my own experience, what it means to dream about a man in your bed. What I don't feel comfortable doing though is reading something into the the text that isn't stated. I would call that overreading. Something may happen that destroys all of these links I've built up and then I get mad at GRRM and say "but you wrote this and then this and then your characters did something that didn't make sense!"

I really think Martin wants us to do just that as readers. I've read interviews with him many times over the years and he has often stated that he's written these books in such as way that he feels they require re-reads and analysis. I know that each time I re-read one of the books or a particular chapter that I learn something new. The more I analyze the text, for any character, the more I discover that relying on the text by itself means that I am only absorbing half the story. There are incidents, apart from Sansa's sexuality, that require us to to look at body language, question what the POV character is saying, and to look for meaning in ambiguity. That's been Martin's style since the first book and I don't anticipate any changes to this either. Personally, I love this as it makes me work a bit as a reader, I have to force myself to analyze and question what I am seeing. The power of this story is not just the words on the page it is what is unsaid too.

What I'm trying to say is that Sansa is a very interesting character apart from whatever one-line thought about her sexual awakening in a chapter otherwise filled with intrigues. Chapters filled with the politics of the Vale, with her training at Littlefinger's hand, my own questions about whether Littlefinger sees what's happening in Essos as a potential problem. She's isolated politically, allowing the Vale to be something of a training ground. She's physically safe, although whether that will continue now that they've gone below the Eyrie is anyone's guess. Her very isolation is what allows her to become a powerful and surprising force when she is revealed. How that will happen is anyone's guess and I think Sansa's story is the one with the most question marks and it's simply because of that that I find her character so fascinating.

I think you will find many people that agree with you on this, I am certainly one of them. Have you had a chance to read through the re-read or previous re-thinking threads at all? We've spent many, many pages discussing Sansa's relationship with her sister, LF and his influence on her, trauma from her past, her future role in WF, her quest for agency, and, one of my favorites, Sansa as a vehicle (is there a better word here anyone?) for Martin to provide insight in to women in Westeros. In fact, every topic you bring up has been a big topic here at one point or another.Five re-read threads and seven re-thinking threads and I feel like we aren't done yet either.

[Mladen]

What I don't feel comfortable doing though is reading something into the the text that isn't stated. I would call that overreading

I like the analysis but I think sometimes people go too far...There are things on the forum that are completely crazy, and not even stated anywhere...Good point, Monica...

[Kittykatknits]

I like the analysis but I think sometimes people go too far...There are things on the forum that are completely crazy, and not even stated anywhere...Good point, Monica...

Well, I think there is a difference between crackpot theories and serious analysis based upon what is said and unsaid, looking for a more critical appreciation of the work. Completely crazy is the assertion that Syrio is alive or the crackpot that Rhaegar is hiding out on the QI. An analysis of Sansa's sexual awakening or to allude to my earlier example, Jaime's breakup process with Cersei, fall in to the realm of critical analysis. Again, it's exactly what Martin has said he likes for his readers to do.