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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

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I think this is because Petyr had a hand in it. It was his intention that she be blamed so that she need rely on him for protection.

Quite likely, but the Tyrells were still in on it, so they were ok with Sansa taking all the risk for them and to be thrown under the bus should someone think to add 2 and 2 together. In fact, I think the Tyrells and LF all come out looking really bad from the whole affair. Sure, I can sympathise in general with offing Joffrey, but not with how they implicated Sansa in it, and were totally fine with Tyrion taking the blame. Especially since Garlan was so very nice to both Tyrion and Sansa before and during the event. Proper two-faced liars the lot of them.

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Quite likely, but the Tyrells were still in on it, so they were ok with Sansa taking all the risk for them and to be thrown under the bus should someone think to add 2 and 2 together. In fact, I think the Tyrells and LF all come out looking really bad from the whole affair. Sure, I can sympathise in general with offing Joffrey, but not with how they implicated Sansa in it, and were totally fine with Tyrion taking the blame. Especially since Garlan was so very nice to both Tyrion and Sansa before and during the event. Proper two-faced liars the lot of them.

Good points but I don't think Garlan had a role in it. Mace didn't know that QoT planned to take Sansa to Highgarden and I think that's the case with this plot. I'm betting it mostly Margaery and Olenna plotting to wed Margaery to someone more to their liking.

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Good points but I don't think Garlan had a role in it. Mace didn't know that QoT planned to take Sansa to Highgarden and I think that's the case with this plot. I'm betting it mostly Margaery and Olenna plotting to wed Margaery to someone more to their liking.

Oh Garlan definitely knew about it. He's the one they tasked with flattering Tyrion and increasing his ill will towards Joffrey so that when the time came it would be believable that Tyrion was behind Joff's murder. Mace is much too bumbling and would never want to take the risk of getting rid of Joffrey, so he's left out of the loop.

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Yes - I definitely see LF's intention to blame Tyrion (so he would be out of the way) and Sansa (so she'd need protection). I think the Tyrells wanted to implicate Tyrion and not the Dornishmen (since they put Garlan up to aggravate Tyrion and make him look guilty) but I'm still not sure if they really wanted her to be implicated (although they certainly foresee that she could be blamed) because they had other plans for her...

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Catelyn Tully - Sansa's mother

Cat's impact on Sansa is something we have to deduct from second hand sources and from internal monologue as they don't actually have any interaction "on stage" in ASOIAF.

Physical appearance: Sansa is definitely her mother's daughter in so far as she has inherited her looks. This is perhaps enforced the most in how Littlefinger reacts to seeing her at the Hand's Tourney, where he seems vaguely stunned at first, and then says that Sansa's mother was once his Queen of Beauty. Both Catelyn and Sansa are supposed to be very beautiful, although neither of them seem to compare themselves to others particularly.

Littlefinger's introduction to Sansa:

When Sansa finally looked up, a man as standing over her, staring. He was short, with a pointed beard and a silver streak in his hair, almost as old as her father. "You must be one of her daughters," he said to her. He had grey-green eyes that did not smile when his mouth did. "You have the Tully look"

"I'm Sansa Stark," she said, ill at ease. The man wore a heavy cloak with a fur collar, fastened with a silver mockingbird, and he had the effortless manner of a high lord, but she did not know him. "I have not had the honour, my lord".

Septa Mordane quickly took a hand. "Sweet child, this is Lord Petyr Baelish, of the King's small council."

"Your mother was my queen of beauty once," the man said quietly. His breath smelled of mint. "You have her hair." His fingers brushed against her cheek and he stroked one auburn lock. Quite abruptly her turned and walked away.

Behaviour: Sansa is good at being dutiful and ladylike and has learnt from an early age to use courtesy efficiently. Cersei comments that Sansa has almost nothing of the North in her, and that she is all her mother's daughter. Cat surely wanted Sansa to be brought up to be a proper lady, but Cat herself mostly chooses to not dress ostentatiously and from what we know, she doesn't seem overly focused on stereotypical ladylike pursuits like embroidery, gossip and reading romance novels. In fact, we know Cat got a rather male centred upbringing, and she chooses to give Sansa a rather different one (more on this below).

Indulgent parenting: Both Cat and Ned seem fairly indulgent with their children and they seem to want to parent them more than perhaps is common among other noble families in Westeros. For instance, none of the Stark children are sent off to be fostered elsewhere and Cat lets us know in her chapters how she dismissed the handmaidens so she could brush Sansa's hair herself.

View on marriage and sex: I think this is one area where Cat and also Ned had perhaps the greatest impact on Sansa. Their marriage was arranged, but it was also one of those rare happy arranged marriages where the parties really and truly grew to love eachother. Both the readers and Sansa realise that this is far, far from the norm of Westeros, but Sansa grew up assuming that marriage equals love. This is all well and good, (and it makes for a nice, stable and loving family life) but a fairly disastrous illusion to have in the cut throat "a claim means everything" world of marriage alliances in Westeros. Cat herself tells us that she was afraid at her wedding and that she thought of Ned as a stranger to whom she gave her maidenhead. It seems she has not chosen to divulge this information to Sansa?

Cat's history with Littlefinger: this is something Sansa learns about during the novels. Littlefinger tells her in AGOT that her mother was once his Queen of Beauty, but in ASOS he also tells her that he was the one to deflower Cat:

"You are old enough to know that your mother and I were more than friends. There was a time when Cat was all I wanted in this world. I dared to dream of the life we might make and the children she would give me...but she was a daughter of Riverrun, and Hoster Tully. Family, Duty, Honour, Sansa. Family, Duty, Honour, meant I could never have her hand. But she gave me something finer, a gift a woman can give but once. How could I turn my back upon her daughter? In a better world, you might have been mine, not Eddard Stark's. My loyal loving daughter....Put Joffrey from your mind sweetling. Dontos, Tyrion, all of them. They will never trouble you again. You are safe now, that's all that matters. You are safe with me, and sailing home."

Later on when Sansa hears of Littlefinger's marriage to Lysa, she thinks he should honour her mother better and she is still not completely convinced that Cat loved Littlefinger either:

"Wed?" Sansa was stunned. "You and my aunt?"

"The Lord of Harrenhal and the Lady of the Eyrie."

You said it was my mother you loved. But of course Lady Catelyn was dead, so even if she had loved Petyr secretly and given him her maidenhood, it made no matter now.

Sansa also want to take her mother's name when Littlefinger wants her to masquerade as his daughter. Regardless of what people say to her, she seems to feel a deep loyalty to her mother throughout, and like Arya, when masquerading as someone else, she picked her mother's name, just like Arya as Cat of the Canals.

Some things to discuss:

  • Ned and Cat were quite indulgent parents. Was this due to that they experienced war and strife while still quite young themselves? Cat also lost her mother quite early in. Is she compensating for her own lost childhood with Sansa?
  • It seems Littlefinger and others assume that Sansa and Cat are alike and only defined by Family, Duty, Honour. Is this something people assume based on physical looks alone?
  • Ned and Cat's marriage was one of love. Will this forever colour Sansa's view of marriage or will she be so disillusioned that she thinks of it only as a political institution?
  • What is the impact of Littlefinger divulging his relationship with Cat which he claims they had before she married Ned?

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Great analysis Lyanna!

Catelyn Tully - Sansa's mother

Cat's impact on Sansa is something we have to deduct from second hand sources and from internal monologue as they don't actually have any interaction "on stage" in ASOIAF.

Physical appearance: Sansa is definitely her mother's daughter in so far as she has inherited her looks. This is perhaps enforced the most in how Littlefinger reacts to seeing her at the Hand's Tourney, where he seems vaguely stunned at first, and then says that Sansa's mother was once his Queen of Beauty. Both Catelyn and Sansa are supposed to be very beautiful, although neither of them seem to compare themselves to others particularly.

This is something I never really noticed before but you're right. There's a lack of vanity on both their parts even though they do acknowledge their good looks.

Littlefinger's introduction to Sansa:

She notices his smile doesn't reach his eyes, showing that early perceptiveness that is later displayed in the Vale. A connection between Littlefinger and Lyn Corbray is certainly appropriate.

] Behaviour: Sansa is good at being dutiful and ladylike and has learnt from an early age to use courtesy efficiently. Cersei comments that Sansa has almost nothing of the North in her, and that she is all her mother's daughter. Cat surely wanted Sansa to be brought up to be a proper lady, but Cat herself mostly chooses to not dress ostentatiously and from what we know, she doesn't seem overly focused on stereotypical ladylike pursuits like embroidery, gossip and reading romance novels. In fact, we know Cat got a rather male centred upbringing, and she chooses to give Sansa a rather different one (more on this below).

I think everyone was charmed by Sansa's good graces and ladylike behaviour :) and for a woman like Cat who's endured her share of hardships it must have been nice to be able to indulge the natural proclivities of her daughter.

] View on marriage and sex: I think this is one area where Cat and also Ned had perhaps the greatest impact on Sansa. Their marriage was arranged, but it was also one of those rare happy arranged marriages where the parties really and truly grew to love eachother. Both the readers and Sansa realise that this is far, far from the norm of Westeros, but Sansa grew up assuming that marriage equals love. This is all well and good, (and it makes for a nice, stable and loving family life) but a fairly disastrous illusion to have in the cut throat "a claim means everything" word of marriage alliances in Westeros. Cat herself tells us that she was afraid at her wedding and that she thought of Ned as a strange to whom she gave her maidenhead. It seems she has not chosen to divulge this information to Sansa?

Yes, great point. Sansa sees a functioning happy marriage and assumes that all marriages are like that. We know now that Sansa could have benefitted from hearing those hard truths, but it seems like Cat's and Ned's mode of parenting was to hand out lessons on a need to know basis. By the time Sansa desperately needed to know certain things it was too late.

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This is something I never really noticed before but you're right. There's a lack of vanity on both their parts even though they do acknowledge their good looks.

I thought this was worth pointing out especially since both Cat and Sansa get a lot of flak for somehow being snotty, but they really aren't. Neither of them think of themselves as beautiful. Cersei thinks of herself in that way (although I really felt for her when she was broken during the WoS), but not Cat or Sansa. Other people comment on their beauty, prettiness or attractiveness, like Tyrion, Jaime, Littlefinger, Sandor, Arya, Myranda, but not themselves.

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I thought this was worth pointing out especially since both Cat and Sansa get a lot of flak for somehow being snotty, but they really aren't. Neither of them think of themselves as beautiful. Cersei thinks of herself in that way (although I really felt for her when she was broken during the WoS), but not Cat or Sansa. Other people comment on their beauty, prettiness or attractiveness, like Tyrion, Jaime, Littlefinger, Sandor, Arya, Myranda, but not themselves.

Perhaps this is why we don't see them relying on that beauty as a means to an end, and why others like Brienne and Sandor, who would be considered ugly naturally gravitate towards them and are influenced by the kindness and compassion they meet?

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  • It seems Littlefinger and others assume that Sansa and Cat are alike and only defined by Family, Duty, Honour. Is this something people assume based on physical looks alone?

I never understood how people limited both Sansa and Arya on their physical looks alone. Sansa looks like Tully, and Arya like Stark, but their life philosophy is completely different. Many times Arya showed us that she does understand the meaning of FAMILY, DUTY, HONOR, but not the Stark words. I disagree with Cersei that there`s no North in Sansa. Tyrion commented that her courtesy shield is cold as the Wall, she is Stark to the bone (remember how she refused to bent the knee on her wedding). And the most important thing, she understands Stark words. She knows that winter is coming, and she is preparing herself for that. That is why she`s becoming so good in Game, and that`s why a lot of us think she will be LF`s doom

As for analysis, well done, Lyanna. You showed us where her imaginative side has come from. I really liked your thoughts about her being raised in loving marriage, and thus she wants to marry out of love...One more time, this is by far, the best thing that came from so little material... :bowdown:

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Physical appearance: Sansa is definitely her mother's daughter in so far as she has inherited her looks. This is perhaps enforced the most in how Littlefinger reacts to seeing her at the Hand's Tourney, where he seems vaguely stunned at first, and then says that Sansa's mother was once his Queen of Beauty. Both Catelyn and Sansa are supposed to be very beautiful, although neither of them seem to compare themselves to others particularly.

I forgot about this. Sansa was compared to Margaery during Purple wedding by Tyrion. Remember how he thought Sansa was more beautiful, and she would have made a better wife than Margaery if Joffrey had been smart enough just to love her. We see that someone relatively objective thinks Sansa is really beautiful...Also, Cersei had remarks on her beauty too...

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I still don't understand something - perhaps one of you could explain. Was Sansa really meant to be blamed for the poisoning along with Tyrion, or did the Tyrells just want to implicate Tyrion, thus freeing Sansa for a new marriage?

The sad look Margaery gives her, the way the other ladies ignore her, make me think they decided to pin it on her as well, but then the QoT talks about getting her to Highgarden yet again, so I'm not sure what to think.

I agree with Lyanna Stark here. They wanted to make her complicit in it. They were fine with her keeping the hairnet. I always remember Donto's thoughts about the Tyrells. They may be roses but they have thorns and are no different than the Lannisters. They may not have thought that she would be put on trial but they were fine throwing her under the bus.

Good points but I don't think Garlan had a role in it. Mace didn't know that QoT planned to take Sansa to Highgarden and I think that's the case with this plot. I'm betting it mostly Margaery and Olenna plotting to wed Margaery to someone more to their liking.

I think he did actually. His words to Tyrion were very deliberate I think. I believe that him, Margaery, and the QoT were the three in on it. I don't think Mace, Leonette, or Loras had anything to do with it.

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Sansa is definitely her mother's daughter in so far as she has inherited her looks. View on marriage and sex: I think this is one area where Cat and also Ned had perhaps the greatest impact on Sansa..
Great analysis Lyanna! This is something I never really noticed before but you're right. There's a lack of vanity on both their parts even though they do acknowledge their good looks.

It seems like this is something else that we an attribute to Catelyn. Sansa's treatment of people comes from her mother her. They both realize they are beautiful but that's just a part of them. It's not a weapon in any way. Sansa's is courtesy.

Sansa sees a functioning happy marriage and assumes that all marriages are like that.
I think this is one area where Cat and also Ned had perhaps the greatest impact on Sansa. Their marriage was arranged, but it was also one of those rare happy arranged marriages where the parties really and truly grew to love eachother. Both the readers and Sansa realise that this is far, far from the norm of Westeros, but Sansa grew up assuming that marriage equals love. This is all well and good, (and it makes for a nice, stable and loving family life) but a fairly disastrous illusion to have in the cut throat "a claim means everything" world of marriage alliances in Westeros.
. You showed us where her imaginative side has come from. I really liked your thoughts about her being raised in loving marriage, and thus she wants to marry out of love...One more time, this is by far, the best thing that came from so little material... :bowdown:

It seems like Catelyn and Ned gave Sansa an unrealistic view of what marriage is like in Westeros but I'm not sure that is actually the case. Sansa has been surrounded by unhappy marriages and was forced in to one herself. But, she's seen and grew up in a home where her parents genuinely loved each other. So, Sansa knows this is possible. I think it will make her even less likely to settle for a loveless, unwanted political marriage.

. I disagree with Cersei that there`s no North in Sansa. Tyrion commented that her courtesy shield is cold as the Wall, she is Stark to the bone (remember how she refused to bent the knee on her wedding). And the most important thing, she understands Stark words. She knows that winter is coming, and she is preparing herself for that.

I agree about Cersei's thoughts here, you are right! Cersei makes a couple statements about Sansa that I think get taken as truth at times. And, as we know, hardly anything that comes from Cersei is correctT Sansa is very much a Stark.

I forgot about this. Sansa was compared to Margaery during Purple wedding by Tyrion. Remember how he thought Sansa was more beautiful, and she would have made a better wife than Margaery if Joffrey had been smart enough just to love her. We see that someone relatively objective thinks Sansa is really beautiful...Also, Cersei had remarks on her beauty too...

Tyrion notices her beauty and then comments that grief just seemed to add to it as well. I always wondered about this observation of his. For Sansa, hearing about the death of her family is a Winter is Coming moment for her. The idea that her grief adds to her beauty is another way of tying her to the North.

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The lovely Butterbumps! has agreed to do a write-up on Jeyne Poole, which leaves me with only Kella to do. I'll be posting my analysis in a couple hours.

Tyrion notices her beauty and then comments that grief just seemed to add to it as well. I always wondered about this observation of his. For Sansa, hearing about the death of her family is a Winter is Coming moment for her. The idea that her grief adds to her beauty is another way of tying her to the North.

Yes, it was an interesting comment. I've always read it as Tyrion seeing Sansa how he wants to see her, which is as this very beautiful girl, whose grief only enhances her beauty, and his desire to be close to her. It speaks to the disconnect between them too, as he is completely shut off from Sansa's thoughts and feelings, so really, he can only notice the external qualities.

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Yes, it was an interesting comment. I've always read it as Tyrion seeing Sansa how he wants to see her, which is as this very beautiful girl, whose grief only enhances her beauty, and his desire to be close to her. It speaks to the disconnect between them too, as he is completely shut off from Sansa's thoughts and feelings, so really, he can only notice the external qualities.

It irked me. Call me a Tyrion hater, but "her grief had only made her more beautiful" is a really douchey comment. Her whole family is dead. And he is thinking about how that makes her look. Winter's Knight also commented in the Reading Women thread on this weird trope that some writers use, of the "vulnerable and haunted" look making women more beautiful when IRL this is def not the case.

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My Mya Stone analysis was done a day earlier than I thought, so that’ll be my next post. I just wanted to comment on what has been discussed recently:

- There was some talk of Cat & Brienne being the only women with a positive friendship connection, I think. Couldn’t Arianna and the Sand Snakes count as well?

- Brash, agree with your thoughts on the UnKiss. If one takes away the stale vomit and the drunken breath, there is left this broken man who cried after hearing the Mother’s Hymn even though he is one of the best killers out there. So Sansa by recreating that night is trying to recall the most “magical” and “poetic” aspects of the moment, despite Cersei’s previous education about how a woman’s life is more pain than magic. It reminds me of when the queen also tells her to rule through fear, but Sansa won’t allow herself that. She’ll rule through love.

- Mladen, great 2nd post on Marg and the Tyrells. I liked how you write that courtesy is also a weapon, & the way you ended your post regarding how roses are pretty but dangerous made me think of Meggie from The Thorn Birds exclaiming, “And there’s one thing you’ve forgotten about your precious roses, Ralph. They’ve got nasty, hooky thorns!

- Lyanna: First of all, congratulations on the 20K! & great analysis. I agree with you that Cat may have indulged Sansa because sine when Cat was little she had to take the role of the son till Edmure was born, she wanted her daughter to enjoy being a care-free happy little girl. When you asked if she would’ve ever told Sansa about her earlier days with Ned, I think she might have, but only until Sansa was grown up and married herself, and maybe going under the same situation. She talks about those first years with Ned and in the North with Jeyne Westerling and Jorah Mormont’s second wife, so why not Sansa? When Joffrey came along and Sansa was so happy at the prospect of marrying him, maybe Cat believed Sansa wouldn’t be in the initial exact position she was in when she married Ned though.

& what I like about Sansa & Cat is that though they are extremely beautiful, they aren’t the sort of vain women Cersei, Scarlett O’Hara, or Becky Sharp are. When trying on her wedding dress she is happy to be and look beautiful, but she doesn’t look down on other women due to their looks the way Cersei does. I believe Sansa is even more beautiful than Marg is, by far. Mladen touched the issue when he commented how Tyrion compared the 2 girls and thought Sansa was more beautiful. This reminds me of Cersei’s thoughts in Feasts about Marge:

She is pretty enough, she had to admit, but most of that is youth. Even peasant girls are pretty at a certain age, when they are still fresh and innocent and unspoiled, and most of them have the same brown hair and brown eyes as she does.

Cersei may be exaggerating here, but I don’t remember anyone ever thinking of peasant girls looks and Sansa’s along the same lines. (Well, Jaime sort of does with his comment on Sansa remaining hidden and marrying a blacksmith, but that’s not about looks).

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What I learned from Mya in regards to Sansa is that though Randa is the one constantly chattering on about men, marriages, what happens in bed and more, Mya is the one who is much closer to Sansa where matters of the heart are concerned…

Mya Stone is first introduced as a pretty, lean, cocky girl from the Vale when Cat is bringing Tyrion to Lysa. Some of the first things we learn about her is that she’s clever and trustworthy, according to Lord Nestor Royce. The only “fault” Cat can find in her is that she is a bastard, reminding her of Jon. But these, along with some other little remarks, are maybe “foreshadowy” of the time Sansa will spend in the Vale later on. In that time Sansa ends up using the surname given to the bastard of the region and is recalling Jon with fondness. This may be her Stark nature breaking through the Stone persona… Anyways, ever since GoT George lets us know that Mya & Sansa are similar, like with this passage:

“Mychel’s my love,” Mya explained. “Mychael Redfort. He’s squire to Ser Lyn Cobray. We’re to wed as soon as he becomes a knight, next year or the year after”… She sounded so like Sansa, so happy and innocent with her dreams. Catelyn smiled, but the smile was tinged with sadness. The Redforts were an old name in the vale, she knew, with the blood of the First Men in their veins. His love she might be, but no Redfordt would ever wed a bastard. His family would arrange a more suitable match for him… If Mychael Redfort laid with this girl at all, I would be on the wrong side of the sheet.

This last remark sounds a lot like Sansa’s in her last Feast chapter:

… And no Tyrell would ever kiss Alayne Stone. Pretty as she was, she had been born on the wrong side of the blanket.
.

So Sansa & Mya started in a relativley similar path, but given fate and circumstances they were both disillusioned with their first love. When Alayne & Myranda are talking about Mya, the latter remarks:

Mychel was the best young swordsman in the Vale, and gallant… or so poor Mya thought.”

Just as Mya was mistaken with Mychel, Sansa was also mistaken about Joff… But between the 2nd and 3rd books, Sansa’s fate interwines with Sandor, Willas, Tyrion, Sweetrobin, Harry… but Myranda states that though her father has tried finding a match for her, Mya just won’t have any of them… Sansa and Mya’s paths connect again here since at presenet they are both “bitter?” were men are concerned. I’m thinking on Sansa’s “No one will ever love me for myself,” line, and of Mya telling Sansa that:

Men come and go. They lie, or die, or leave you. A mountain is not a man though, and a stone is a mountain’s daughter…”

Well, the first part of that quote reminds me a lot of this: “He took a song and a kiss and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.” So I can see Sansa possibly agreeing with Mya here, since even though Sandor doesn’t lie to her, at least by the end of Crows Sansa is giving us the impression that she beleives he choose to leave her… Maybe in the near future these 2 girls who’ve been in a “similar” path where “romantic” relationships are concerned will decide to choose for themselves the man they want to share their lives with…

& that brings me to Lothor Brune and Sansa’s future romantic decisions. This man trusts Sansa, showing us her ability to have “commoners” open up to her. He tells her the story of his childhood, and Sansa notices that he always smiles when he speaks of Mya. Sansa ends up measuring him up pretty good with:

Alayne wondered what Mya made of Ser Lothor… It is a common face but an honest one… Sober, he was a quiet man, but a strong one. And loyal… Mya was much younger than Ser Lothor, but her father had told her that young girls were always happies with older man… Brune would be as good a match for a bastard girl like Mya Stone.

Of course Sansa isn’t really a bastard girl, and she can do much better than that. But then the whole Winterfell claim issue would have to be dragged out, and maybe that’s something Sansa does not want? I’m not saying that she should forget Winterfell and stay a Stone forever, but maybe knowing for the first time true happiness and love was only possible while she was pretending to be a bastard. And so when the time for Sansa Stark to appear again comes, Sansa will treasure what she knew as a Stone enough to not let go of it? She has the exampled of Lysa & Cersei to guide her as well…

It’s like what Lady Lea said in a previous post:

But it was good for Sansa to see that some highborn ladies do sometimes find love among the "lower class" and how duty was poison to both Lysa and Cat. I really think she'll take this into consideration in the future.

& then Elba the Intoner and Kittykat touched the issue with these:

Could this become a parallel later for Sansa and Sandor? Sansa is as highborn as you get and Sandor has nothing.
It may be. I took this as a message on how a woman could change the social circumstances for their personal desires.

Anyways, besides the love issue, Sansa manages to break Alayne’s composed matured thread of thoughts when Mya is concerned. We see the younger ladylike Sansa appear as she does the Lothor/Mya match-making and even remarks that if Mya would only wear girl clothes, she could be pretty... & then the whole “Do you think Ser Lothor prefers her in mail or satin?” thoughts...

From what I’ve seen of the Sansa, Mya & Rands together, i think that it would be nice if Sansa ended up as the sort of Marg of the trio. Marg was the little leader of the tyrell cousins group, and Sansa is very strong and inspires people to break allegiances and help her, so I’m hoping Mya will have an important part to play in Sansa’s role in the next book. Alongside lothor maybe?

I’m sure that even though being a Stone is at present useful and safe and maybe even fun, Sansa Stark will appear again. Mya may love the Vale and the mountains are her home, but Sansa lets us know exactly what she thinks of a stone (whether it be the surname or the actual living in the Vale with LF or with Harry means) with this passage:

The Eyrie was built of fine white stone, and winter’s mantel made it whiter still. So beautiful, Alayne thought. So impregnable. She could not love this place, no matter how she tried.”

I think that this means that Sansa does care about Winterfell and that just as the snow covers up the stone, Sansa will end up controlling Alayne, not the other way around. So maybe that means LF’s influence won’t pay off in the end and Sansa will still be honorable, good, compassionate... just a bit more wised up? And will rule through love, not fear? And live a happy life where love for her family is first and foremost atop the list?

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Caro, that was a lovely discussion :) I really liked how you showed the similarities between Mya and Sansa's views on their first love, and how Cat's fears matches Sansa's later estimation concerning Loras Tyrell.

Caro:

What I learned from Mya in regards to Sansa is that though Randa is the one constantly chattering on about men, marriages, what happens in bed and more, Mya is the one who is much closer to Sansa where matters of the heart are concerned…

Indeed. Sansa is sincerely interested in Mya and Lothor's potential romance, and one has to wonder just why this particular union fascinates her so much ;) Sansa has not fully identified with her bastard persona as yet, but she appears to be using Mya Stone to explore the possibilities of a romantic match for a bastard girl. When birthright and riches are stripped away, the important qualities such as honesty and loyalty become paramount, and Sansa's description of Lothor Brune sounds like someone familiar to us doesn't it?

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thanks lady lea & brash! :grouphug: i'm so happy you liked it, and just as you said brash, it's lovley to see sansa trying to wage her own future possibilites that being a bastard allows her, or that will involve her future love life. it's nice to see her doing this in such a "Sansa" style: playing cupid. she knows those regions and so she'll try to fit see how her own position would like if you take mya and lothor out and put in herself and a certain mystery man with a scarred face whose kisses are cruel :wub:

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