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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

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- I'm also very hesitant to bring this up but I will gently put it out there. I've been wondering for awhile now how the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion will play out in the story. My big concern is that this thread will turn in to another Mrs. Sansa Lannister thread and I'm really done with that topic. I'm more interested in exploring what the series is likely to do with this plot line. I can see everyone not being up for this one either so I'll respect the decision the group makes on this. :)

HANDLE WITH CARE!!!

Honestly I've never seen a discussion of this that hasn't spiraled into Mrs Sansa Lannister. If we could do it it would be a feat. But as soon as anyone mentions that she should learn to appreaciate him I'm coming up with a Mrs SL bingo card.

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Would anyone be open for talking about the Stark words for Sansa?

I'd like to talk about that Blackwater episode too and this line but I agree, we can't do it in this thread. The mods would come down on us. If there is enough interest from others though, I'd be glad to open a thread i the GOT forums for us to talk about it there.

I have a couple topics too:

- I'd like to talk in more detail on how Sansa will be LF's downfall. I know it's been brought up in the past but we've got a few new people so I'm curious if anything new will come up.

- I'm also very hesitant to bring this up but I will gently put it out there. I've been wondering for awhile now how the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion will play out in the story. My big concern is that this thread will turn in to another Mrs. Sansa Lannister thread and I'm really done with that topic. I'm more interested in exploring what the series is likely to do with this plot line. I can see everyone not being up for this one either so I'll respect the decision the group makes on this. :)

- Sansa's relationship with Ser Sweetrobin.

I think Sansa may poison LF's wine with the strangler from the hairnet she brought from King's Landing. She will have allies first; think The Baba Yaga, a beautiful girl sent to the cabin of a witch, Baba Yaga, who has the girl perform tasks, and the girls makes allies of animals and objects belonging to the witch who were instructed to harm her instead help her as she performs acts of kindness for them. Sansa will get Luthor Brune after she gets Mya to marry him, he will be indebted to Sansa.

I think Sansa may develop feelings (not romantic) towards Sweetrobin as he starts to be less of a pain in the ass, and shows more affection towards Sansa, even giving an "I love you." This will make it harder for Sansa to go along with LF's plan, and we see some internal conflict on her part.

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I wouldn't mind writing something on this in relation to the knowledge that Sansa now has about Littlefinger's role in poisoning Jon Arryn and kicking off the Westeros shitstorm.

LF has always been a master at covering his own behind, but this has left him bare-assed to the wind and Winter Is Coming up behind him. The question is whether he has grasped the full implications of this, and also when and how Sansa will use this knowledge to bring him down (and I am betting she will; she didn't hear that conversation just so we the readers would know what went on).

If we get some further interest, that would be great! This would make a great topic.

HANDLE WITH CARE!!!

Honestly I've never seen a discussion of this that hasn't spiraled into Mrs Sansa Lannister. If we could do it it would be a feat. But as soon as anyone mentions that she should learn to appreaciate him I'm coming up with a Mrs SL bingo card.

And this is why I am so hesitant about it too. It's a part of her storyline but I don't want that debate. BTDT and I'm ready for a break from it. But, it's still a plot point for her so there is some value to discussing it. Yet, I don't want Mrs. Sansa Lannister. Hence the dilemma. :)

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Wow, this thread is moving so fast that I can't quite catch up.

Lollys

Lollys isn't exactly role model for Sansa, at least not one that Sansa consciously internalizes. She doesn't think back on the things she sees when she's around Lollys, for example. However, the few brief encounters Sansa has with her reveals quite a bit about Sansa's character, and perhaps about Lollys as well. They are sometimes described in the same way and they sometimes react to things in similar fashions which might suggest that perhaps Lollys is more than she appears much like Sansa is.

The first time Sansa mentions Lollys, she describes her as placid and dull. This is in sharp contrast to all of the descriptions Lollys gets from nearly everyone else (bovine lackwit, dimwit...terms meant to devalue her mental capacity and insult her shape). Sansa neither thinks or says one insulting thing about Lollys, unless placid and dull can be considered insulting. Compare this with the way people describe Sansa - dimwitted, a mouse, a chirping liar. The physical adjectives used to describe these two are quite different - Lollys is large and unattractive while Sansa is thin and beautiful. One's appearance obviously goes a long way in establishing one's opinion about a person.

The next time Sansa encounters Lollys, it is on the way to Maegor's Holdfast. Sansa stops to help coax Lollys across a bridge. Sansa speaks gently to Lollys and Lollys is able to be moved after. Again, she does not note Lollys' mental capacity, only that Lollys is sick which Sansa understands to mean pregnant.

The most curious thing about this scene is when Lollys stops and gapes at Sansa. I have a couple of ideas about what it could mean. One, there is a theory that part of Sansa's warg abilities appear in the way she can empathize and calm people. There could be something that Sansa is unknowingly doing that calms Lollys in a way her mother, sister and maid Shae cannot.

My other idea about this scene is one I think much more likely. Lollys is obviously traumatized by what happened to her during the riots and since then (and perhaps even before) people, including her immediate family, speak to her in rough commands and condescending tones. Sansa does not. She explains to Lollys where they are going and why and assures her that she will be safe. This is a big thing when dealing with traumatized people and I think this means a lot to Lollys. This may also be a confidence booster for Sansa when she has to calm the women in Maegor's Holdfast after Cersei flees.

At Sansa's wedding, Lollys is seen to be sobbing. Let her sob, Sansa thought. Perhaps I shall do the same before this day is done. Sansa soon starts crying. My initial thoughts about Lollys crying was that she was scared to be out of her room and she might have been upset to have lost a potential husband. After all, Tyrion was one of the men Lady Tanda pursued for her daughter. However, Tyrion never did meet privately with Lollys and her family so it's a pretty big assumption that Lollys would be devastated about losing this potential match.

Considering how Sansa calmed Lollys during the Blackwater, I think a more likely explanation is that Lollys understands what this may be like for Sansa. Where Lollys was saying "I don't want to," before going into Maegor's Holdfast, Sansa was saying the same thing before being brought into the sept. One wonders what Lollys would have said to Sansa if she had been able to meet her on the walk to the altar.

It's obvious why Sansa cried during her wedding. However, it is interesting that she acknowledges that Lollys is the only other one doing so and then thinks she will do the same. Sansa is not afraid to be compared to a woman in which so many men have contempt for. She is a little more subtle than Lollys, but her crying and acting dimwitted is helpful in that many do not suspect her capable of being a mastermind of anything. Subtly is probably more important for Sansa than for Lollys considering Sansa doesn't have the same courtly protections that Lollys has.

A few questions for further consideration, in this thread or another. Will Sansa consider Lollys as any sort of ally in the future? Will there ever be a reason their paths might cross again? Considering the comparisons, is Lollys more clever than other characters think she is? Will she come out a strong, powerful woman?

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Guys, since we ended the discussion of how women inflenced Sansa and her behaviour, can we continue...here are some of my ideas:

1. Let`s talk about family words, both Tully and Stark, and really get into discussion is she closer to her mother`s or her father`s family.

2. I always wanted to disscus the line from Blackwater episode " You won`t hurt me"

3. Sansa as Queen of the North...

She is her father's daughter.

#2 I think there is a thread already in the TV section under season 2.

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Wonderful post Dr. Pepper! I'm out at dinner and on my phone so I can't give a substantive reply, but will do so when I return home. Thanks again for this contribution :)

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I have to partially agree with you. Especially when GRRM acts like he's surprised that fans like Sandor or that SanSan is a thing. I think that's disingenuous at best. I don't disagree with a lot of the analysis, but from my reading of this thread and the previous one it seems that Sansa's sexuality tends to take over the discussion. Like I said, I don't disagree that those themes are there. She's replacing Tyrion with Sandor for a reason and the unkiss is there for a reason. But I don't want to speculate on why simply because I have no idea where GRRM is going with it. There is still his repeated comment of "unreliable narrator" which tends to make me wonder when I read the Sansa\Alayne chapters. And I'm incredibly hesitant to put too much meaning behind it if only because reading this series has taught me that I have no idea where GRRM is taking these characters.

I literally just finished ADWD two days ago, so I haven't gone through any of the re-read or rethinking threads other than this one and the previous one. It's probably that everything I've thought about and questioned is in those threads. I've meant to go through them but just haven't had the time.

Martin is trolling. He even confirmed that there was something there in a recent interview so he knows exactly what he did.

There are quite a few threads on re-reading Sansa and all of them are absolutely amazing. They've set the standard for re-reads on this board and have spawned numerous other topics to further explore themes in the books. The Reading Women thread came from this one for example. The topics that are on here drift and move from topic to topic based upon what members want to talk about. I think you will find that the regular, and occasional, posters have examined Sansa's storyline, and all its many themes, in quite a bit of detail. If you've only seen this one and a previous one, you have only gotten a small sample of what is out there. As I said in my previous point, I urge you to take a look.

I'm not sure I can agree with you on speculating or predicting what will happen. That's the purpose of 90% of the threads on this board. Right now, there are active threads on the BWB and it's fate, Jaime/Brienne, Dany's potential death, R+L = J, and a re-read of Dany and Jon in Dance. All of these threads are speculation and analysis based upon the text, what is unsaid, symbolism, and extensive evidence gathering. We may not be able to be inside Martin's mind but going through this exercise is the next best thing.

I certainly like the symbolism a lot as well. You could take it a little further and make comparisons to Sandor as well. The younger, crueler, vicious Hound as one protector, and then the blind, docile, simple Dog as another. Both sort of fulfill similar roles as well- Sandor is not able to fully protect Sansa from the brunt of Joffrey's violence, and the Dog is not able to protect her at all from Marillion (although our favorite Sandor stand-in Lothor Brune is ).

Speaking of Sansa and warging and symbolism and imagery, there's a lot Sansa allusions to animals. You have the Hound and the Blind Dog, Little Bird and Sweetrobin (and his preference for Winged Knight stories or whatever those were), and also LF's sigil of mockingbird. I'd just like to see Sansa's warging ability develop further to tie her more to the other Stark children. It certainly seems a possibility that that is what was happening with the blind dog.

Yeah I love all this. Lothor Brune is probably the next possibility for her compassion to play out (and he is, as has been noted before on here kind of a Sandor stand in. Even their names sound familiar lol).

Maybe LF only sees the Fish so to speak (of Catelyn Tully) and not the Wolf of Eddard Stark?

I like your take imagery with the blind dog, that's a great way of looking at it. Earlier, someone (brashcandy, was this you?) said that Lother is what Sandor could have been if he had not been burned. I like that. I'm very curious what will happen with him and Sansa in the next book. I think it's possible that he will change his allegiance at some point and that Mya wil have something to do with it.

I think LF is making the same mistake that may readers do. He sees the Tully look and gentle manners and sees what he wants to see. We see lots of readers coming to similar conclusions.

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Mladen,

Sansa`s surname is Stark. I always think people somehow forget this. Once, when I discussed Arya-Sansa relationship, I said that Arya may have Stark looks, but it is Sansa who really understands Stark philosophy and those words "Winter is coming". Sansa`s exterior may be tame and warm as in any southern girl...But, deep down, in the essence of her being she is strong and harsh as winter, everlasting as the home she left. Also, Lady represente connection with her Stark side, and once she lost it, it was far more difficult for her to prepare for everything that`s coming (including winter). But, she has done impossible and survived KL on her alone.

I totally agree with your words here… it’s not only that sansa is more mature and can therefore cope with what winter is coming means. She is as you said strong and harsh as winter. LF is underestimating her here…

- Lyanna,

There's also the fact that Sansa has been involved in no less than 5 marriage alliances she has had no say in, but Sandor she has started having feelings for completely on her own, with no pressure from anyone involved. Which is a fact it seems a lot of people dismiss when they think he is not suitable. Whatever Sansa chooses will be "suitable" enough for her will be enough. Especially if it's free from other people's meddling influences and involve no interest in her claim to Winterfell. Sandor has no interest in her claim to Winterfell. He seemed rather taken with Sansa the girl, not Sansa the claim to Winterfell.

Indeed, I’m sure that by the end of the books she will know her heart better than anyone and be able to know what’s best for her in the long run. If she chooses sandor then that’s that. & please please do the tapestries theory! It wouldn’t only be an insightful read, but a way to keep us going for the next year till Winds comes out J so pretty please yes??

- Tagganaro:

You could take it a little further and make comparisons to Sandor as well. The younger, crueler, vicious Hound as one protector, and then the blind, docile, simple Dog as another. Both sort of fulfill similar roles as well- Sandor is not able to fully protect Sansa from the brunt of Joffrey's violence, and the Dog is not able to protect her at all from Marillion (although our favorite Sandor stand-in Lothor Brune is ).

I love this!!

- Kitty, Well, I think she might be LF’s downfall, but I am not sure if I want to see her doing it herself or hiring someone to do it. it would be ironic and maybe poetic to use the moonstones but she would be a murderer then.. Maybe LF will hurt Mya and Lothor will kill him in a mad rage? It would certainly be a good excuse for mya and lothor to pack theit bags and flee to the QI, and sansa could come along since she was the one who made them see the potential for a steady and true relationship…? As to the SR topic, since I just can’t figure out what will happen with him I would like to have some discussion going on if others are into it too J

Dr. Pepper, great analysis on Lollys! The way you said how maybe Sansa’s warging emphaty and compassionate abilities helped soothe Lollys reminded me of the connection between bran & hodor. After Lollys got raped many spoke to her harshly, but Sansa didn’t. this could be because she was almost on her shoes had it not been for sandor, and yet when sandor insults lollys and Tyrion, sansa doesn’t agree with him. she is so good and kind she can’t accept such a harsh take on the world and on those who can’t defend themselves. I think Lollys could be a good support for sansa one day since she is her family’s heir now, but since I can’t see sansa returning to KL any time soon it may happen in the long future.

- I think this has sort of been addressed today: sansa not being able to be viewed by many who don’t get her or aren’t that interested in her sotry as a sexually active teenager… I can’t recall for the life of me the name of the thread but it’s been said by others that sansa is just too innocent for that. Well, not if George and the laws of nature disagree. George is starting to address sansa’s emotional maturity, and those people who can’t view her like that will just have to wait. It’s like back in the 1st or 2nd book, many would not have suspected that sansa could end up being a great politician and brining the clever powerful LF down… but now it can be done…

Anyways, one good thing I suppose that LF has done has been to allow sansa to explore this side of her which she seems to enjoy whenever he encourages to puzzle out something- that of the politician. Had she just married some high lord, managing his castle, that would have been about as far as her life would develop since women in Westeros so far have had to excersise their power through men (like the QoT), and maybe the sansa of AGOT would still be pretty much present in that picture. But after everything she has surprised many by showing them that she can play the game and be a good poltician, whether it is a queen or master of whispers or just lady of the dreadfort or winterfell. Even is she chooses to live as simple a life as it will be allowed to her as a surviving stark, I can see her not regretting that she developd her political side. It can come in Handy when ruling the north or just being rickon’s regent. So I guess what I am trying to say is that LF is helping her explore a side of her which had live hadn’t turned out the way it did- well, the possibility of sansa as a political threat not by her claim but by her wits it’ appealing.

- 1 more thing: I would like to see the “you won’t hurt me” thread started over at the tv forums. I find it beautiful…

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@Dr.Pepper

I really must commend your analysis of Lollys in that you've managed to make me see that she is much more complex than I had originally appreciated. As you noted, so many characters within the story (and readers) dismiss Lollys and project their feelings onto her, without considering that she's a human being with her own desires and wishes. This is eerily similar to what happens to Sansa, as she remains a pawn of the Lannisters and is exploited for her claim. However, you brought up a salient point: Sansa's physical attractiveness and her ability to at least communicate with others in a meaningful way have ensured her a better outcome than Lollys. She was able to count on the Hound's protection during the riots, whilst poor Lollys was forgotten by everyone and gangraped. Also, Tyrion would rather have "sweet smelling" Sansa Stark, whereas the mere mention of Lollys makes him feel as though he would chop his penis off and feed it to the goats. Lollys is then left to marry Bronn, and we have no idea how he's treating her.

Lollys' predicament highlights the extreme victimization that noble women can be subjected to, even within an environment that is supposedly there to protect them. I found your point here to be particularly insightful:

Considering how Sansa calmed Lollys during the Blackwater, I think a more likely explanation is that Lollys understands what this may be like for Sansa. Where Lollys was saying "I don't want to," before going into Maegor's Holdfast, Sansa was saying the same thing before being brought into the sept. One wonders what Lollys would have said to Sansa if she had been able to meet her on the walk to the altar.

This is really poignant and I do agree that Lollys is commiserating with Sansa here. She knows what it's like to be powerless and at the mercy of others, and this is exactly the situation Sansa finds herself trapped within. Whereas Lollys is unable to enunciate her suffering in clear terms, Sansa realises that her suffering isn't important to the people around her; it simply doesn't matter what she wants and therefore it won't be recognized. Both women are rendered voiceless and are meant to bear their oppression in silence.

Yet, the tears that Lollys cries, and the earlier assistance Sansa offers in helping her across the bridge do form a kind of unacknowledged sisterhood between the two women. Empathy and compassion are Sansa's greatest strengths, and the fact that Lollys demonstrates these as well reveals her to be a very special person. As with Sansa, others have rushed to judgement about Lollys, not appreciating what is beneath the surface, and the very humane qualities that she displays. This is true beauty - a beauty that callous women like Cersei and Shae can never possess, and both Sansa and Lollys, despite the terrible treatment they endured in KL, manage to survive where others have fallen arguably because of these very qualities.

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At Sansa's wedding, Lollys is seen to be sobbing. Let her sob, Sansa thought. Perhaps I shall do the same before this day is done. Sansa soon starts crying. My initial thoughts about Lollys crying was that she was scared to be out of her room and she might have been upset to have lost a potential husband. After all, Tyrion was one of the men Lady Tanda pursued for her daughter. However, Tyrion never did meet privately with Lollys and her family so it's a pretty big assumption that Lollys would be devastated about losing this potential match.

Considering how Sansa calmed Lollys during the Blackwater, I think a more likely explanation is that Lollys understands what this may be like for Sansa. Where Lollys was saying "I don't want to," before going into Maegor's Holdfast, Sansa was saying the same thing before being brought into the sept. One wonders what Lollys would have said to Sansa if she had been able to meet her on the walk to the altar.

Yes! This is such a brilliant point. It also struck me while rereading the wedding scene recently that Lollys may in fact be the only one to show her feelings of sympathy with Sansa here. Everyone else either didn't care, or didn't show that they have any sympathy, but Lollys did. I definitely think that despite not being the sharpest tool in the box, Lollys understood how depressing and sad the entire event was for Sansa.

It's also a very good point that Sansa is never mean to Lollys, unlike almost everyone else who talks down to her.

I tend to not think Lollys will be more than she seems, but at the same time it's interesting that people in Kings Landing viewed Sansa as only a little bit smarter than Lollys. It also seems that both Lollys and Jeyne Poole have been set up to show what could have happened to Sansa and that her environment was truly dangerous.

I really, really dislike Bronn, but if he is kind to Lollys, I may forgive him. That poor girl needs a break. Also, the one redeeming feature with Bronn is that when Tyrion tells her the Tysha story, Bronn tells Tyrion he'd have killed Tywin for it.

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LF’s downfall – GOOD point (however, it seems that I am as always too late in replying…?).

In her last dramatic appearance, Lysa stated to LF.... that HE told her to drop THE TEARS (of Lys...) into Jon Arryn’s wine and to accuse the Lannister's of having poisoned JA in the respective letter to Catelyn (and so one came to another) … Lysa did this for LF (= love for him as man to finally live with him) and for SR (= love for her child)… Sansa (and Marillion) whitnessed these words. Well, Marillion COULD be dead (is he really or is he rotting in a kind of black cell? If he is not dead… well, he could be of importance again in a trial against LF…). Sansa had a shock after Lysa’s attacking her and Lysa's death through LF. Additionally, LF manages to give her some of his guilt that Lysa is dead (oh, he is so brillant, this devil ;-). BUT when being Alayne, she could remember it in a more neutral position. But what to do with this knowledge? Actually, I have no idea (sobb). She has no important person whom she could tell such a dynamite secret to and who had the power to proceed against LF. She actually could only learn from the Lysa-drama NOT to trust LF! However, Cersei’s words came to my mind as well: Love is a sweet gift… As well as Jaime’s: Things I will do for love… She can see that some (weak?) people are doing terrible things in the name of love (either to protect their kids or to achieve a certain gain).

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OK, I first have to answer on the question what I meant by talking about Sansa as Queen of the North...

I have no doubts here that Sansa is seen as Queen of the North in LF`s eyes. But, does she see herself like that? Can she rule the people she never even met? What would be the greatest obstacle to her? How can she handle that idea? What if she finds out Rickon is alive? Will anyone understand her marriage to Tyrion? And, will Riverlords also bow the new Queen of the North? Essentially, what I wanted us to disscus is what her game shall be if LF opens that door?

Second about line "You won`t hurt me"...Let us talk about Sandor...and the evolution of Sansa`s view on true love(I think Lyanna had written something about it). Let us also talk about, how she saw through him and finally realised that he loves her...Another, arranged marriages for Sansa...Will LF be satisfied with just half the kingdoms, when he has a better match for Sansa (Aegon, perhaps?).And in that case, will Queen of the North marry Targaryen heir (again, if Aegon is Targaryen)...And I wanted to talk about blue rose in the ice...Can that reffered on Sansa and not Jon, like everyone think...

Stark vs Tully...Two sides in one person...two completelly different sides colliding in one girl...I know we all agree that she`s Stark to the bone, but let we elaborate it a little bit...

@Lady Lea, you are the sweetest thing, you couldn`t offend me in any case, I don`t want that, I just want to talk what she inherited from her parents. Legacy in those words...

@Kittykatknitts, I would like to talk about Sweetrobin, I have already told that her compassion will be LF`s doom...

@brashcandy, let someone of us open a topic YOU WON`T HURT ME...in GOt forum and we`ll know it...

@Dr.Pepper, I haven`t a formed opinion about Lollys, so I`ll have to re-read your post one more time to give you piece of my mind...

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And guys, have we forgotten this...can we talk about Lyanna`s influence on Sansa(not our Lyanna :wideeyed: )? I mean, they both disregarded their families just because of love...

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LF’s downfall – GOOD point (however, it seems that I am as always too late in replying…?).

In her last dramatic appearance, Lysa stated to LF.... that HE told her to drop THE TEARS (of Lys...) into Jon Arryn’s wine and to accuse the Lannister's of having poisoned JA in the respective letter to Catelyn (and so one came to another) … Lysa did this for LF (= love for him as man to finally live with him) and for SR (= love for her child)… Sansa (and Marillion) whitnessed these words. Well, Marillion COULD be dead (is he really or is he rotting in a kind of black cell? If he is not dead… well, he could be of importance again in a trial against LF…). Sansa had a shock after Lysa’s attacking her and Lysa's death through LF. Additionally, LF manages to give her some of his guilt that Lysa is dead (oh, he is so brillant, this devil ;-). BUT when being Alayne, she could remember it in a more neutral position. But what to do with this knowledge? Actually, I have no idea (sobb). She has no important person whom she could tell such a dynamite secret to and who had the power to proceed against LF. She actually could only learn from the Lysa-drama NOT to trust LF! However, Cersei’s words came to my mind as well: Love is a sweet gift… As well as Jaime’s: Things I will do for love… She can see that some (weak?) people are doing terrible things in the name of love (either to protect their kids or to achieve a certain gain).

Yes, this is the frustrating part of the clipping of Sansa's storry in AFFC (apparently GRRM had at least one more Sansa/Alayne chapter written but it was cut and placed in TWOW). Sansa got a proper infodump from Lysa and it just seems unlikely that she will not use it somehow, since it's rare to get that amount of an infodump without it being useful to the character and not just as exposition to the readers.

One aspect is certainly to warn her about Littlefinger's manipulative and above all deadly nature, but the pure facts can also be useful. Should she really think about it and analyse it (which I hope she has time for later) she should be able to piece a couple of things together that few people know. Interestingly, Sansa is probably the only one who may suspect LF's role in siccing the Starks vs the Lannisters.

I also agree with you that something is fishy with Marillion. Sansa had her doubts so I wonder what LF is up to with Marillion and I tend to agree with her. Marillion and the tapestries are the two most suspicious things in Sansa's AFFC chapters.

Second about line "You won`t hurt me"...Let us talk about Sandor...and the evolution of Sansa`s view on true love(I think Lyanna had written something about it). Let us also talk about, how she saw through him and finally realised that he loves her...

I don't think Sansa "knows" that Sandor loves her. She thinks he would not hurt her and she sees him as a protector, as someone who can give her useful advice and who does not lie to her. But as someone who loves her? I don't think so.

In fact, I'd say if confronted, both of them would deny having feelings of that nature for the other. Currently it really seems a subconscious thing for both of them, although judging by Sandor's deathbed confession, I'd hazard a guess and say that even if he does deny it and does not recognise it, his feelings are there.

Sansa also rather surprisingly comes up with Sandor when Myranda starts talking about marriage beds, which is probably the conscious thought she has that is most straight forward together with the one about how he kissed her and left her.

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And guys, have we forgotten this...can we talk about Lyanna`s influence on Sansa(not our Lyanna :wideeyed: )? I mean, they both disregarded their families just because of love...

I think Sansa only knows the official version of that story - Lyana was kidnapped and raped,I don't think she,at this point,has any reason to think otherwise. Furthermore we also only know for sure what we were told and only assume the rest based on what other people say about Raegar ( that he was good man ). Nothing is confirmed yet.

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I think Sansa only knows the official version of that story - Lyana was kidnapped and raped,I don't think she,at this point,has any reason to think otherwise. Furthermore we also only know for sure what we were told and only assume the rest based on what other people say about Raegar ( that he was good man ). Nothing is confirmed yet.

But with her imagination at the start of ASOIAF, she may think that Lyanna loved Rhaegar...

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But with her imagination at the start of ASOIAF, she may think that Lyanna loved Rhaegar...

She's been told all her life to think the opposite,I don't know...she never had any reason beside her being a romantic to think it was sad love story.You think she does based on your own impression or you remember something from the text. I myself am waiting to be convinced that this was once in a life time love story.

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Typical of me I decided to bypass perusing all the posts to this thread and offer my take.

It seems to me that Sansa is patterned after Jane Bennet and Marianne Elliot of Jane Austen fame. That being the case all she will ever be is a pretty pawn. To be a player takes intelligence and while I'm not saying Sansa is a lack wit she is ultimately medicore in that department. The best she can do is stay quiet and look pretty.

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But with her imagination at the start of ASOIAF, she may think that Lyanna loved Rhaegar...

I'm not sure Sansa has ever thought much of Lyanna and Rhaegar, nor that it has really influenced her. Dany seems to think more of Lyanna and Rhaegar than Sansa does. I don't know if it's because Sansa doesn't see any connection between herself and Lyanna, or because she thinks she knows the whole story, which is the one of Rhaegar abducting her and her dying because of it. Considering that Sansa is familiar with songs and romance, it is interesting that she doesn't consider Lyanna and Rhaegar as potentially romantic, but that in itself is probably an indicator of which version of the story she has been fed.

Typical of me I decided to bypass perusing all the posts to this thread and offer my take.

It seems to me that Sansa is patterned after Jane Bennet and Marianne Elliot of Jane Austen fame. That being the case all she will ever be is a pretty pawn. To be a player takes intelligence and while I'm not saying Sansa is a lack wit she is ultimately medicore in that department. The best she can do is stay quiet and look pretty.

I can only recommend that you do read the entire thread, plus perhaps some of the first round of "From Pawn to Player" threads. It's also stated in the text that Sansa is not stupid, she is in fact a model student. The only topic Arya thinks she is better at is sums. It's also fairly clear Littlefinger does not view her as stupid. However, Joffrey and Cersei do, but I do believe they are not the end all and be all. Mildly put.

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But the EB could be aware of Sandor’s love for Sansa IMO. He was fully aware of which maid Brienne is talking about and he SOFTLY said “Sansa Stark” (not, “ah, you mean… what’s her name… the daughter of Lord Stark… Sansa, isn’t it…?”). I guess Sandor would not admit that he loves her (bugger that strange feeling), but EB is a wise mentor (and in his first life he was in love as well) and hopefully will explain Sandor something about human feelings… And Sansa? As I noted it she is not aware that she has feelings for Sandor either. She thinks of him as the Hound, and dreams of him in a neutral HE – avoids his name… Is this a kind of ladylike “not this guy, please, I always wanted a prince” feeling? Ladies, please I am looking forward to reading your opinion (guys as well of course, but perhaps this behavior is more female…???).

Regarding Lyanna and Sansa: First of all I thought: These 2 girls? – noooo similarities, no go. BUT during lunch and a boring meeting, I now have to admit that some parallels crossed my mind: Lyanna was betrothed to a man who loved to love other women besides her (and Lyanna was fully aware of it). Sansa’s Harry seems to be another version of Robert. And it seems that both girls wanted and wants to be loved for themselves and not for their claim. I am convinced that Sansa while becoming stronger will fight for and achieve what she wants: Her true love - when she found it.

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