From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

[Kobayashi Maru]

I'm not sure Sansa has ever thought much of Lyanna and Rhaegar, nor that it has really influenced her. Dany seems to think more of Lyanna and Rhaegar than Sansa does. I don't know if it's because Sansa doesn't see any connection between herself and Lyanna, or because she thinks she knows the whole story, which is the one of Rhaegar abducting her and her dying because of it. Considering that Sansa is familiar with songs and romance, it is interesting that she doesn't consider Lyanna and Rhaegar as potentially romantic, but that in itself is probably an indicator of which version of the story she has been fed.

Also she' is not alone in this.Not many people are second guessing the official version of events. We haven't heard anybody doubting it.It happened a long time ago and people stopped thinking about it.b

[weaselontherun]

Lyanna "a model student" does not necessarily engender intelligence far from it. A "model student" in this fantasy is submission and discipline. That is why there is a comparison to P&P and S&S

[Kobayashi Maru]

Regarding Lyanna and Sansa: First of all I thought: These 2 girls? – noooo similarities, no go. BUT during lunch and a boring meeting, I now have to admit that some parallels crossed my mind: Lyanna was betrothed to a man who loved to love other women besides her (and Lyanna was fully aware of it). Sansa’s Harry seems to be another version of Robert. And it seems that both girls wanted and wants to be loved for themselves and not for their claim. I am convinced that Sansa while becoming stronger will fight for and achieve what she wants: Her true love - when she found it.

There are similarities,and quite a few but my point is I don't think Sansa is aware of any of them so how can she be influenced by her aunt if she only believes one version of events and is not thinking about Lyana's actions at all.

Regarding Hound being in love...When you go back to rescue someone from angry mob and in the process cut of hands of poor git who dared to touch her it says love to me.Does he know it? I guess he is aware that he has some feelings for her considering that prior to meeting her only thing he "loved" was his horse.When you start being overprotective and tend to touch other person for no good reason and you pour your sad life story to them you are bound to question yourself why are you doing it for.

Sansa's feelings are more hidden and I don't think she herself fully understands them. The best she may come to conclude from her dreams and memories is that she no longer fears the Hound and that brings us back to the line "you won't hurt me" from tv show.I guess GRRM had to work with the material he was given.We as readers know there is a lot more to Sansa's and Sandor's relationship than it was shown on tv show and Martin build it up nicely.People who only watch the show have what little the writers have given them and Martin had to compensate.In stead of making it more complicated by adding some elements from the book he decided IMHO to just sum up what he intended to be the message of that scene Sansa will eventually in books come to realize (trough her dreams and unkiss memory) that Hound is on her side and she can trust him not to hurt her.That gives me some hope that we'll see these two together again and at this point she won't be afraid of him and will trust him at least to some extend.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyanna "a model student" does not necessarily engender intelligence far from it. A "model student" in this fantasy is submission and discipline. That is why there is a comparison to P&P and S&S

Seriously, I suggest you read through some of the previous threads. This has been dealt with in depth. I don't mean to be snarky, but Sansa being "stupid" is a common complaint and part of the "Sansa bingo" as it were. The people who think Sansa is stupid are Cersei and Joffrey. Littlefinger on the other hand calls her clever and Arya thinks Sansa is better at everything but sums. Sansa can also write poetry at age 11 and is said to be a better reader than all her brothers.

I also suggest that if you think Sansa is a Jane Bennett, you need to look at Sansa again. The only comparison I can think of to Marianne in S&S is that Sansa may come to love an older man (maybe), and even then, Marianne really loved Willoughby. The point of S&S is also to contrast Marianne's over emotional state with Elinor's too controlled, and that neither is a particularly good state to be in. S&S has very little to do with female agency. P&P has arguably a bit more, but it is more in how the material is presented than in the actual actions of the characters.

If you read through the Sansa threads, you'll find that Sansa's story arc is a lot about finding agency in a world where women are traditionally pawns in the ultimate sense of the word, which Cersei describes in her speech about being sold off to some stranger like a horse to be ridden whenever he wants it. Sansa has been the victim of 5 marriage alilances and she does not, as of the end of AFFC, want to marry again. She is also in the position that should she get out from under Littlefinger's thunb, she is without a patriarch. Which is a highly unusual situation for women to be in.

There are six reread threads and this is the seventh analysis thread the rereads spawned. Helpful link here.

Please also consider that this is a serious thread dedicated to detailed analysis of Sansa's story line and the themes introduced in it. Claiming that Sansa is stupid without backing it up with textual evidence is something better posted in one of the numerous "I hate Sansa" threads, which the search engine will happily bring up for you.

[weaselontherun]

Wow sure put me in my place. Sorry for sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong.

[Mladen]

Please also consider that this is a serious thread dedicated to detailed analysis of Sansa's story line and the themes introduced in it. Claiming that Sansa is stupid without backing it up with textual evidence is something better posted in one of the numerous "I hate Sansa" threads, which the search engine will happily bring up for you.

Well said, Lyanna. And for the record, if you don`t have anything samrt to say, please move on...

Wow sure put me in my place. Sorry for sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong

If you want to say that Sansa is stupid, please elaborate that...One sentence isn`t enough...

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Seriously, I suggest you read through some of the previous threads. This has been dealt with in depth. I don't mean to be snarky, but Sansa being "stupid" is a common complaint and part of the "Sansa bingo" as it were. The people who think Sansa is stupid are Cersei and Joffrey. Littlefinger on the other hand calls her clever and Arya thinks Sansa is better at everything but sums. Sansa can also write poetry at age 11 and is said to be a better reader than all her brothers.

"Sansa Bingo!" Someone needs to create that or else point me to one that is created.

I'm going to concentrate on Cersei now because it's her attitude that would matter, since Joffrey's dead. We've seen in AFFC just how horrible a judge of character she is and how that is what causes her downfall (reinstating the Sword and Stars - reeealll good idea, incestuous adulterer). This is why I think that it will be Sansa who is the one "younger and more beautiful" who will cast Cersei down and take all that is most dear to her. Cersei thinks it's Margaery, but since she's wrong about everything else, it can't be her. I don't know that it's Dany, because Cersei and Dany have had no interaction up to now and I don't recall Cersei thinking about Dany at all. But her contempt for Sansa is obvious. And chances are if Cersei thinks the sky is blue she needs to go outside to check.

Yes, Sansa is the reader in her family - something else she seems to share with Ned, who, when he is trying to find out the truth about Cersei and her kids, sits poring over what I can presume to be a wonky and rather difficult history/biography. She's also - again, like Ned - able to grasp the facts of a situation clearly once she is disabused of her idealism. She figured out why Harry is the Heir pretty quickly.

At the end of SoS, Littlefinger tells her he has some devotional books for her to read to get up to speed on what someone raised in a septry should know. I think there is more to this than meets the eye - Sansa will read, all right. She'll read more than just devotional books, and/or read those devotional books and find out more than Littlefinger intended. I think her intelligence and literacy will be one of the things to help her, especially if she gets hold of history books or books on magic or even illuminated pornography. :D

She is her father's daughter, as others have pointed out. Her mistakes in GoT are along the same lines as Ned's - thinking that everyone means well and will do the honorable thing. The difference is that she is a young girl, a "maid," the least powerful position in her society. Ned has worldly power - she has none. I really think that is what drove her to live in a dreamworld of books and romance stories in the beginning - she was seeking out power and agency in the only way allowed to her; first by creating her own dreamworld and second by envisioning herself as having the best possible outcome (Happily Ever After with a handsome lord who loves her). Obviously these worldviews don't work out well for either Stark.

Littlefinger's seeing her as a Tully woman because of her resemblance to her mother is another fatal mistake on his part. It will be worse for him if he thinks she is anything like Lysa, who Littlefinger played like a puppet. Sansa's not an old family friend, nor she doesn't have warm childhood feelings for Littlefinger; in fact, Littlefinger now has this girl he doesn't really know at all in a position to know his secrets, all the time telling himself she's Catelyn 2.0 when in fact she's more like Ned 2.0.

I want to write that essay on Sansa and what she now knows about Littlefinger's role in the war and destruction of her family, but I don't know if we're too close to the end of the thread.

[Eric v. Melnibonee]

-->Pier della Vigna:

Regarding Hound being in love...When you go back to rescue someone from angry mob and in the process cut of hands of poor git who dared to touch her it says love to me.Does he know it? I guess he is aware that he has some feelings for her considering that prior to meeting her only thing he "loved" was his horse.When you start being overprotective and tend to touch other person for no good reason and you pour your sad life story to them you are bound to question yourself why are you doing it for.

Yes you are right, he loves her, this is my opinion as well. But is he AWARE of it? Not sure about this – and we have not his POV… The EB stated “… he never loved ..”. This is my point. Apparantly, he is not aware what he feels towards her or will not admit it. He never experienced friendship or love in his life. His scars made people fear him, he did not need to threaten them, he appeared and people run. He played his brutal role and adapted it very well. Sansa, IMO, ennerved and annoyed him first, but more and more he sees past her armor of courtesy and vice versa she sees past his scars (“you won’t hurt me”). He wants to keep her save, wants to protect this in his eyes strange - because unspoiled – girl. I am convinced that his feelings for her have more weight than the revenge he wants from (un)Gregor. And I hope that we will get a POV from him. Yep, would be great!

[Kittykatknits]

"Sansa Bingo!" Someone needs to create that or else point me to one that is created.

I'm going to concentrate on Cersei now because it's her attitude that would matter, since Joffrey's dead. We've seen in AFFC just how horrible a judge of character she is and how that is what causes her downfall (reinstating the Sword and Stars - reeealll good idea, incestuous adulterer). This is why I think that it will be Sansa who is the one "younger and more beautiful" who will cast Cersei down and take all that is most dear to her. Cersei thinks it's Margaery, but since she's wrong about everything else, it can't be her. I don't know that it's Dany, because Cersei and Dany have had no interaction up to now and I don't recall Cersei thinking about Dany at all. But her contempt for Sansa is obvious. And chances are if Cersei thinks the sky is blue she needs to go outside to check.

Yes, Sansa is the reader in her family - something else she seems to share with Ned, who, when he is trying to find out the truth about Cersei and her kids, sits poring over what I can presume to be a wonky and rather difficult history/biography. She's also - again, like Ned - able to grasp the facts of a situation clearly once she is disabused of her idealism. She figured out why Harry is the Heir pretty quickly.

At the end of SoS, Littlefinger tells her he has some devotional books for her to read to get up to speed on what someone raised in a septry should know. I think there is more to this than meets the eye - Sansa will read, all right. She'll read more than just devotional books, and/or read those devotional books and find out more than Littlefinger intended. I think her intelligence and literacy will be one of the things to help her, especially if she gets hold of history books or books on magic or even illuminated pornography. :D

She is her father's daughter, as others have pointed out. Her mistakes in GoT are along the same lines as Ned's - thinking that everyone means well and will do the honorable thing. The difference is that she is a young girl, a "maid," the least powerful position in her society. Ned has worldly power - she has none. I really think that is what drove her to live in a dreamworld of books and romance stories in the beginning - she was seeking out power and agency in the only way allowed to her; first by creating her own dreamworld and second by envisioning herself as having the best possible outcome (Happily Ever After with a handsome lord who loves her). Obviously these worldviews don't work out well for either Stark.

Littlefinger's seeing her as a Tully woman because of her resemblance to her mother is another fatal mistake on his part. It will be worse for him if he thinks she is anything like Lysa, who Littlefinger played like a puppet. Sansa's not an old family friend, nor she doesn't have warm childhood feelings for Littlefinger; in fact, Littlefinger now has this girl he doesn't really know at all in a position to know his secrets, all the time telling himself she's Catelyn 2.0 when in fact she's more like Ned 2.0.

I want to write that essay on Sansa and what she now knows about Littlefinger's role in the war and destruction of her family, but I don't know if we're too close to the end of the thread.

Two things real quick...

I'll send you a PM with a link to the Sansa bingo. Also, I'd start on that essay.. A new thread will be opened for us to continue discussion.

And, now I need to try and catch up.

[Kobayashi Maru]

-->Pier della Vigna:

Regarding Hound being in love...When you go back to rescue someone from angry mob and in the process cut of hands of poor git who dared to touch her it says love to me.Does he know it? I guess he is aware that he has some feelings for her considering that prior to meeting her only thing he "loved" was his horse.When you start being overprotective and tend to touch other person for no good reason and you pour your sad life story to them you are bound to question yourself why are you doing it for.

Yes you are right, he loves her, this is my opinion as well. But is he AWARE of it? Not sure about this – and we have not his POV… The EB stated “… he never loved ..”. This is my point. Apparantly, he is not aware what he feels towards her or will not admit it. He never experienced friendship or love in his life. His scars made people fear him, he did not need to threaten them, he appeared and people run. He played his brutal role and adapted it very well. Sansa, IMO, ennerved and annoyed him first, but more and more he sees past her armor of courtesy and vice versa she sees past his scars (“you won’t hurt me”). He wants to keep her save, wants to protect this in his eyes strange - because unspoiled – girl. I am convinced that his feelings for her have more weight than the revenge he wants from (un)Gregor. And I hope that we will get a POV from him. Yep, would be great!

:agree:

I'm not saying that he'll suddenly become young Werther and start writing poems and gaze dreamily to the moon but I am sure he's aware that something is different with her. Something about her makes him different (when was the last time he protected someone that it wasn't his duty? ).He is scarred outside and inside and I don't know if he's capable of expressing his emotions other than with anger :frown5:

[Lyanna Stark]

But the EB could be aware of Sandor’s love for Sansa IMO. He was fully aware of which maid Brienne is talking about and he SOFTLY said “Sansa Stark” (not, “ah, you mean… what’s her name… the daughter of Lord Stark… Sansa, isn’t it…?”). I guess Sandor would not admit that he loves her (bugger that strange feeling), but EB is a wise mentor (and in his first life he was in love as well) and hopefully will explain Sandor something about human feelings… And Sansa? As I noted it she is not aware that she has feelings for Sandor either. She thinks of him as the Hound, and dreams of him in a neutral HE – avoids his name… Is this a kind of ladylike “not this guy, please, I always wanted a prince” feeling? Ladies, please I am looking forward to reading your opinion (guys as well of course, but perhaps this behavior is more female…???).

Yes, it is interesting to consider that the EB also loved a woman out of his league and that he seems to know exactly that it is Sansa Stark Brienne is talking about. Some people seem to think that because the EB did not mention anything about Sandor feeling anything, that it means he feels nothing for Sansa (or at least nothing important) but his "deathbed" confession seems to contradict this.

It is certainly worth considering what Sandor told the EB. Judging by what he told Arya and how well the EB seems to know Sansa, it is likely that he did talk about her. The EB also nailed who it was after a brief description, so that means Sandor has told the EB how Sansa looks, the development with how she was treated in Kings Landing and also that she managed to flee her marriage with Tyrion, and probably that he feels he failed her, since his deathbed confession was all about that, and nothing about Gregor (perhaps a first sign that he was about to move on from being all about killing his brother and turning towards a more human existence where attachment to other human beings in a meaningful way is possible?).

I agree that the EB is a good and wise mentor (it's also interesting that he's less forgiving than Septon Meribald, perhaps a reflection of what type of man he once was and that you cannot completely change who you are?), but there is also the risk (for the plot and us readers!) that he wishes to keep Sandor there forever for his own good. It is said that the EB shields the inhabitants from the worst of what happens in the outside world. On the other hand, since Sandor is directly being blamed for the massacre at Saltpans, I wonder if he at least hasn't been told that bit.

Regarding Sansa's thoughts on him, it's probably a mixture of her still being really young and also that he is so far away from her "ideal" that it's probably going to take some time to process and become fully realised. (Unless Lummel is right and they'll never meet again. ) It also paralells Jaime/Brienne in that it's clear to the reader they have feelings for eachother, but that it is not realised yet and not obvious to the characters themselves.

On why the EB doesn't tell Brienne about what Sandor experienced with Sansa and what he may feel about her, I think the EB told Brienne what she needed to know to leave Sandor alone. It's clear Sandor isn't really dead, since the EB goes off on a tangent about his own metaphorical "death" and then asks Brienne "do you understand?". If the EB considered himself dead, then he believes the destructive and negative side of himself died, and he describes The Hound being dead in a similar way: as if Sandor's destructive and negative sides died on the Trident, but he survived. However, Brienne doesn't understand it, since she is such a different person and she hasn't met Sandor.

Eric, have you read the Rereading Sansa From Pawn to Player threads yet? If you have the time, they're definitely worth it. :) And it would be interesting to hear your take on some of the analysis, especially the Serpentine Steps conversation and the Red Keep scene.

:agree:

I'm not saying that he'll suddenly become young Werther and start writing poems and gaze dreamily to the moon but I am sure he's aware that something is different with her. Something about her makes him different (when was the last time he protected someone that it wasn't his duty? ).He is scarred outside and inside and I don't know if he's capable of expressing his emotions other than with anger :frown5:

OMG I HATE young Werther so I really hope not. :lol:

But absolutely, things have definitely been told to the EB. What we can deduce with certainty is that Sandor has described Sansa's looks, since the EB was able to identify her from Brienne's description. the EB also knew that she was missing, so Sandor has told him what he heard from the Tickler and Polliver, which also probably means he has told the EB of why this is important to him, meaning he must have told him about their interaction in Kings Landing.

As for the EB being a good listener, we have evidence of how it may work when Brienne pours her heart out to him (I really felt for Brienne here, the poor, poor woman. :( )

[Mladen]

"Sansa Bingo!" Someone needs to create that or else point me to one that is created.

I'm going to concentrate on Cersei now because it's her attitude that would matter, since Joffrey's dead. We've seen in AFFC just how horrible a judge of character she is and how that is what causes her downfall (reinstating the Sword and Stars - reeealll good idea, incestuous adulterer). This is why I think that it will be Sansa who is the one "younger and more beautiful" who will cast Cersei down and take all that is most dear to her. Cersei thinks it's Margaery, but since she's wrong about everything else, it can't be her. I don't know that it's Dany, because Cersei and Dany have had no interaction up to now and I don't recall Cersei thinking about Dany at all. But her contempt for Sansa is obvious. And chances are if Cersei thinks the sky is blue she needs to go outside to check.

Yes, Sansa is the reader in her family - something else she seems to share with Ned, who, when he is trying to find out the truth about Cersei and her kids, sits poring over what I can presume to be a wonky and rather difficult history/biography. She's also - again, like Ned - able to grasp the facts of a situation clearly once she is disabused of her idealism. She figured out why Harry is the Heir pretty quickly.

At the end of SoS, Littlefinger tells her he has some devotional books for her to read to get up to speed on what someone raised in a septry should know. I think there is more to this than meets the eye - Sansa will read, all right. She'll read more than just devotional books, and/or read those devotional books and find out more than Littlefinger intended. I think her intelligence and literacy will be one of the things to help her, especially if she gets hold of history books or books on magic or even illuminated pornography. :D

She is her father's daughter, as others have pointed out. Her mistakes in GoT are along the same lines as Ned's - thinking that everyone means well and will do the honorable thing. The difference is that she is a young girl, a "maid," the least powerful position in her society. Ned has worldly power - she has none. I really think that is what drove her to live in a dreamworld of books and romance stories in the beginning - she was seeking out power and agency in the only way allowed to her; first by creating her own dreamworld and second by envisioning herself as having the best possible outcome (Happily Ever After with a handsome lord who loves her). Obviously these worldviews don't work out well for either Stark.

Littlefinger's seeing her as a Tully woman because of her resemblance to her mother is another fatal mistake on his part. It will be worse for him if he thinks she is anything like Lysa, who Littlefinger played like a puppet. Sansa's not an old family friend, nor she doesn't have warm childhood feelings for Littlefinger; in fact, Littlefinger now has this girl he doesn't really know at all in a position to know his secrets, all the time telling himself she's Catelyn 2.0 when in fact she's more like Ned 2.0.

:agree: about all of this. But, let me concentrate on bolded sentences.

First, about Sansa being the Queen who would cast Cersei down...I always believed prophecy reffers to Sansa, not Margaery or Dany, not even Arianne. Sansa is in the best place to understand what Cersei hold dear. She knows her far better than Margaery...after all, Cersei allowed herself some indiscretions in front of Sansa, which I hopefully believe Sansa will know how to use it...One more proof if you need that Sansa is the "younger queen" is that it was her hairnet that took Cersei`s precious son...

Littlefinger will never stop underestimating Sansa. Why? Because he thinks she is beautiful as her mother, and smart as her father(and we all know what LF thinks of Ned`s smartness)...He`s clever man, but lack of instincts will be deadly to him...Sansa lost her naivite, his lessons are her weapons now, and above all, she`s still Stark of Winterfell in the place where people wouldn`t be so quick to sell her to Iron Throne.

Many people think that Sansa`s disregardment of her father`s orders was stupidity. It was just naivite...the kind you would expect of 11-year-old girl...But, who can blame her? Look at her parents. Her father believed that everyone is decent as he is, and her mother had faith in ideals no one else did. I mean that kind of naivite is in her DNA...

LF`s doom will be that he have failed to see entire Sansa. He has her in his grasp, but she somehow slipped him through his fingers...His plans are cunning and devious, but he`s counting too much that she`ll agree with his plans. He thinks that by losing naivite, she lost everything. I think that Sweetrobin will put to the test both of them...Both Lf`s inteligence and Sansa`s compssion...And when two of them collide...poor LF... :devil:

[1234567]

In two more books we may only have 5-10 Sansa chapters left if AFFC is anything to go by, although more if she goes back to the leave of ACOK.

How much can be introduced in a new plot line for her without it bringing in old characters rather than introducing new ones.

GRRM did say somewhere that he had an idea that as all the characters start at Winterfell, he wants them to end in a central location as well. However how likely is this given chapter constraints and the options available?

Where does Sansa's arc end in a new plot line? If she marries Aegon, it will tie her in with his fate and also seems difficult to tie together withthe SR storyline that is emerging. If she is in the Vale to kill LF and protect SR, then possible the only thing left for her story arc after that is to either disappear back to the Fingers as Alyane (with or without a certain Gravedigger) or hang around waiting forTyrion to return, or return to Winterfell and rebuild, if after the Others there is any North left to go back to.

Also what role do these tapestries and the Mad Mouse have to play in the future?

[Lyanna Stark]

For Eric (and anyone else who is interested)

Kittykatknits' excellent quick writeup of the Serpentine Step scene with analysis.

My write up of similarities between Jaime/Brienne and Sansa/Sandor, the first bit and the second bit.

brashcandy's interesting thoughts on the scene at the top of the Red Keep before the Battle of the Blackwater.

[Eric v. Melnibonee]

Thanks a lot for the summaries, Lyanna! These scences are amongst my favourites in the books - I am sure I will get great input reading the posted thoughts you mentioned! :)

[Kittykatknits]

- Kitty, Well, I think she might be LF’s downfall, but I am not sure if I want to see her doing it herself or hiring someone to do it. it would be ironic and maybe poetic to use the moonstones but she would be a murderer then.. Maybe LF will hurt Mya and Lothor will kill him in a mad rage? It would certainly be a good excuse for mya and lothor to pack theit bags and flee to the QI, and sansa could come along since she was the one who made them see the potential for a steady and true relationship…? As to the SR topic, since I just can’t figure out what will happen with him I would like to have some discussion going on if others are into it too J

- I think this has sort of been addressed today: sansa not being able to be viewed by many who don’t get her or aren’t that interested in her sotry as a sexually active teenager… I can’t recall for the life of me the name of the thread but it’s been said by others that sansa is just too innocent for that. Well, not if George and the laws of nature disagree. George is starting to address sansa’s emotional maturity, and those people who can’t view her like that will just have to wait. It’s like back in the 1^st or 2^nd book, many would not have suspected that sansa could end up being a great politician and brining the clever powerful LF down… but now it can be done…

I don't want her to drop poison in his wine either. I think she will be his downfall but using her weapons, not his. My current favorite theory is that she will do it by saving Ser Sweetrobin somehow.

Yeah, I agree with you on readers and her storyline. Seems like some don't agree or want to explore the idea that she is becoming sexually active. I think another large proportion of readers take her storyline and extrapolate it to the rest of the series, making themselves blind to what is really happening.

But with her imagination at the start of ASOIAF, she may think that Lyanna loved Rhaegar...

I can't remember a time when she thinks of the two of them, does she at all? If she learns the truth of them, assuming they were in love (which I think they wee), I'm curious what her reaction would be. I don't think she would have the same idealized reaction that we saw in GOT.

But the EB could be aware of Sandor’s love for Sansa IMO. He was fully aware of which maid Brienne is talking about and he SOFTLY said “Sansa Stark” (not, “ah, you mean… what’s her name… the daughter of Lord Stark… Sansa, isn’t it…?”). I guess Sandor would not admit that he loves her (bugger that strange feeling), but EB is a wise mentor (and in his first life he was in love as well) and hopefully will explain Sandor something about human feelings… And Sansa? As I noted it she is not aware that she has feelings for Sandor either. She thinks of him as the Hound, and dreams of him in a neutral HE – avoids his name… Is this a kind of ladylike “not this guy, please, I always wanted a prince” feeling? Ladies, please I am looking forward to reading your opinion (guys as well of course, but perhaps this behavior is more female…???).

I saw your comment about always falling behind. I feel that way at times too. :) I go to bed, thinking I am caught up in this thread. Then, wake up the next morning finding that I'm 30 posts behind and trying to play catch-up. This whole thread can move very fast at times too.

I saw Lyanna Starks response to your post and agree with everything she said. I didn't realize it the first time I read that scene but the EB really does have an agenda with Brienne. I don't think he ever lied to her but I also think he was walking a balance between that and telling her the truth. I do think he knew about Sansa, we just don't know how much. But, it was apparent to me that the EB had two purposes with Brienne. First, he wanted her to leave Sandor alone, that was obvious. But, not only that, he wants her to abandon her quest completely and go home to her father. That's the part that has me wondering. If she leaves Sandor alone, why is the EB wanting her to go a step further beyond that? I don't think he is a politician in any way close that LF is but I do think it is possible that the EB has his own agenda.

I agree with you, I think Sansa's feeling towards him are unconscious. The closest we get are her thoughts in her final AFFC chapter, when she thinks of him and the marriage bed and her thoughts on how he left her nothing but a bloody cloak. I'm curious to see where this will go.

[brashcandy]

Yeah, I agree with you on readers and her storyline. Seems like some don't agree or want to explore the idea that she is becoming sexually active. I think another large proportion of readers take her storyline and extrapolate it to the rest of the series, making themselves blind to what is really happening.

I was reading the thread by Ser Patreck on tales growing in the telling, and it got me to thinking how this could apply to this resistance you note above. Most readers will admit that Sansa has moved away from the childish ideals she once held in AGOT/ACOK, but the radical changes that her world view has undergone still doesn't seem to be fully appreciated. Like a tale with new plots and twists added, characters too will develop, and a part of that is sexual development. Both Jon and Robb have had fairly traditional deflowering experiences, but Martin has really taken the time with Sansa to explore her blossoming sexuality, the threats that surround it, and how it might ultimately lead to her adopting an unconventional lifestyle. For the male characters, sex seems to be be an accepted rite of passage, even viewed as a necessary precursor to them acting as empowered agents or having some authority. That same allowance is hardly made (by readers) for female characters, and these women undergo a struggle to exist outside of the Whore/Madonna binary when it comes to exploring their sexuality.

[Mladen]

I don`t think that anything related to Sansa`s sexual experience (or lack of it) would be traditional...

By the way, @brashcandy, should we start with the new discusions or wait until you open Rethinking VIII?

[Kittykatknits]

I was reading the thread by Ser Patreck on tales growing in the telling, and it got me to thinking how this could apply to this resistance you note above. Most readers will admit that Sansa has moved away from the childish ideals she once held in AGOT/ACOK, but the radical changes that her world view has undergone still doesn't seem to be fully appreciated. Like a tale with new plots and twists added, characters too will develop, and a part of that is sexual development. Both Jon and Robb have had fairly traditional deflowering experiences, but Martin has really taken the time with Sansa to explore her blossoming sexuality, the threats that surround it, and how it might ultimately lead to her adopting an unconventional lifestyle. For the male characters, sex seems to be be an accepted rite of passage, even viewed as a necessary precursor to them acting as empowered agents or having some authority. That same allowance is hardly made (by readers) for female characters, and these women undergo a struggle to exist outside of the Whore/Madonna binary when it comes to exploring their sexuality.

I agree that most readers agree that she is moving away from childish ideals, but I often see it framed as becoming "less naive" or something similar. Or, she is still called a child after AFFC is done. Statements such as these always make me wonder just how closely a person is reading her chapters as I don't think either are very accurate of her character. Sansa trusts no one, doubts most everything, and is showing some signs of bitterness. Its as if Sansa's idealism, an ideal trait IMO, is being confused with naivete. I am not making the argument that Sansa is an adult yet, she is still growing, but her childhood is over. It's been ripped from her at an early age and she will never get it back. This is one of the bittersweet elements of Sansa's journey I think.

The traits that are at Sansa's core are still there, empathy, compassion, idealism, but in just about every other way, this is not the same person we were first introduced to back in WF. I completely agree with you that Martin is putting more effort and time in to Sansa's developing sexuality than any other character. I compare her to Dany who had a marriage night with her "wetness" and then some sex education from Doreah before mounting her husband (can you tell I'm not a fan of Dany/Drogo?) as a sexual development story. It's a huge difference.

In ASOIAF, a woman, especially amongst the noble classes, is defined by her marriage and her ability to have children. Her skills at politics, healing, or anything else offer little value at all in this culture. It goes back to the idea that, for a woman, one of the most basic decisions she makes in her life is whether or not to bare children and then to pick who the father of those children would be. So, under this lens, the exploration Martin is doing with Sansa's character make total sense to me. He's exploring all these elements of being a woman within ASOIAF, but he is doing it from a very empowering perspective. It's about her agency, her desire, and her need to control her future.

It is very unfortunate that more readers don't see this. I don't like saying it, but I don't foresee the Madonna/Whore dynamic disappearing from the fandom any time soon. It's a very decisive view of female sexuality and very contrary to the message that Martin is trying to give with Sansa's character.

So, to summarize, I agree. :)

[brashcandy]

I don`t think that anything related to Sansa`s sexual experience (or lack of it) would be traditional...

By the way, @brashcandy, should we start with the new discusions or wait until you open Rethinking VIII?

No, I'm going to let this thread go a bit longer (if the mods don't close it), so go ahead and explore your topic :)