From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

[Mladen]

@brashcandy, @kittykatknitts, I really hate Madonna/Whore binary anywhere...I think it`s far too sexist for 21st century to write about female characters on that way...But GRRM is doing his best to show us how harsh can be patriarchy...That Madonna/whore thing is going to kill my mood for anymore reading any day...For the love of God, can we actually discuss women without mentioning what`s between their legs. I am men, but I strongly believe that every women(in this case in Westeros) should be topic of discussion only if their sexuality isn`t in question...

[Lady Lea]

I don`t think that anything related to Sansa`s sexual experience (or lack of it) would be traditional...

By the way, @brashcandy, should we start with the new discusions or wait until you open Rethinking VIII?

I really liked your ideas for discussion of her as Queen in the North btw!

ETA: idk guys it's past 400 posts I think a mod will probably close it soon

[brashcandy]

I agree that most readers agree that she is moving away from childish ideals, but I often see it framed as becoming "less naive" or something similar. Or, she is still called a child after AFFC is done. Statements such as these always make me wonder just how closely a person is reading her chapters as I don't think either are very accurate of her character. Sansa trusts no one, doubts most everything, and is showing some signs of bitterness. Its as if Sansa's idealism, an ideal trait IMO, is being confused with naivete. I am not making the argument that Sansa is an adult yet, she is still growing, but her childhood is over. It's been ripped from her at an early age and she will never get it back. This is one of the bittersweet elements of Sansa's journey I think.

Yes, the "child" label is particularly grating, not even because of the term itself, but due to kinds of interpretations and expectations it seems to engender.

In ASOIAF, a woman, especially amongst the noble classes, is defined by her marriage and her ability to have children. Her skills at politics, healing, or anything else offer little value at all in this culture. It goes back to the idea that, for a woman, one of the most basic decisions she makes in her life is whether or not to bare children and then to pick who the father of those children would be. So, under this lens, the exploration Martin is doing with Sansa's character make total sense to me. He's exploring all these elements of being a woman within ASOIAF, but he is doing it from a very empowering perspective. It's about her agency, her desire, and her need to control her future.

Amen :) I mean honestly, this is about as clear as it can be said. Sansa's arc is really not about whether she will rebuild Winterfell or reclaim it for the Starks. These things may or may not happen, but they are not the true significance of Sansa's story in the series.

[Lyanna Stark]

@brashcandy, @kittykatknitts, I really hate Madonna/Whore binary anywhere...I think it`s far too sexist for 21st century to write about female characters on that way...But GRRM is doing his best to show us how harsh can be patriarchy...That Madonna/whore thing is going to kill my mood for anymore reading any day...For the love of God, can we actually discuss women without mentioning what`s between their legs. I am men, but I strongly believe that every women(in this case in Westeros) should be topic of discussion only if their sexuality isn`t in question...

I think GRRM mostly manages to avoid any of these tired tropes. It seems harder for the readers to do so though. Unfortunately.

It's a running theme for the female characters to struggle with agency, patriarchal structures and gender issues, so it seems these issues are supposed to be important to consider. Further, it seems that we may even see that female desire matters and it won't just be that the hero scores enough hero points for the heroine to realise how nice and heroic he is and magically fall in love.

[Mladen]

I think GRRM mostly manages to avoid any of these tired tropes. It seems harder for the readers to do so though. Unfortunately.

Good point. And we always come back to the fact that we have to read, but not overread...Reading between lines is allowed, but I think many of us have started to imagine their own scenarios without any proof in the books...

[brashcandy]

I think GRRM mostly manages to avoid any of these tired tropes. It seems harder for the readers to do so though. Unfortunately.

It's a running theme for the female characters to struggle with agency, patriarchal structures and gender issues, so it seems these issues are supposed to be important to consider. Further, it seems that we may even see that female desire matters and it won't just be that the hero scores enough hero points for the heroine to realise how nice and heroic he is and magically fall in love.

Yup. Just look at Sansa with Tyrion, Dany with Quentyn, Asha and Tris, or even Marg and Joffrey. With respect to the latter, that can really serve as a kind of a twisted inspiration for Sansa to see that sometimes when one is trapped within particular circumstances, the only thing to do might be to make the ordeal easier to deal with; Sweetrobin over HtH perhaps?

[Pod The Impaler]

Further, it seems that we may even see that female desire matters and it won't just be that the hero scores enough hero points for the heroine to realise how nice and heroic he is and magically fall in love.

Haha, that's one way to put it. :idea:

Like Selmy's "fire vs. mud".

Could be worse - could be the James Bond style: "10 minutes ago you were trying to kill me, now we have sex, and 10 minutes after that you betray your country because I'm that damn good in the sack."

:pimp:

[The Mother of The Others]

Sansa is being rethought so hard!

5200 posts. What are the initial findings? :drunk:

[Dr. Pepper]

Amen :) I mean honestly, this is about as clear as it can be said. Sansa's arc is really not about whether she will rebuild Winterfell or reclaim it for the Starks. These things may or may not happen, but they are not the true significance of Sansa's story in the series.

Perhaps the next thread could be made with a focus on Sansa's agency, especially with how she learns to claim her own agency via the role models that have been analyzed in this thread. We've really got into her her interactions with other women and how they may have influenced her, but I think it may be helpful to go a step further in this direction.

[A...]

Oh my, just caught up with this thread, which is moving at the speed of light as usual ;) (I'm on holiday atm and internet access is sporadic and mostly phone-based)

Anyway, I just wanted to set some things down regarding what I've read of the past few pages of this thread:

On LOLLYS STOKEWORTH: I absolutely loved everyone's posts on her subject, I just wanted to add a few little points which struck me when it comes to her and Sansa, namely:

- both witness their close family being killed by their husbands/betrothed: Joff kills Ned and Bronn kills Lollys' brother-in-law and exiles her sister - an act which leads to the latter's murder at the hands of Quyburn and Cersei.

- both are wanted primarily for their claims, and both, having outlived their primary usefulness (Lollys got old and was raped and Sansa is a traitors daughter) and are consequently dumped into a less important and less desirable marriage just to get them out of the way- this is why I believe Lollys sympathised enough with Sansa to cry at the wedding.

- I think Sansa's helping Lollys into Maegor's was almost like a direct foreshadowing of her helping Sweetrobin accross the stone ridge on the descent from the Eyrie.

Moving on to the subject of Whore/Madonna sexual based typecast characters, I believe GRRM (although he does a lot to combat this kind of prejudice) is not completely innocent of perpetrating these stereotypes: case in point, Cersei the whore. But this is not a Cersei thread, so I will withhold my rant on this subject for another thread.

Regarding the possible subjects for discussion, I would love a tapestries thread, they intrigue me immensely! As to the other topics, I will happily participate in any discussion, but for all it's worth, I'm not a big believer in Sansa as the Queen in the North and will probably oppose this idea vehemently. The idea of Sansa and Tyrion and what value their marriage has as a subject for serious discussion (NOT: Sansa should be nicer to Tyrion! Pout/sniff!) sounds interesting, since I have no idea where this will go except maybe it leading to a possible Sansa/Dany meeting/ friendship??

[Dr. Pepper]

On LOLLYS STOKEWORTH: I absolutely loved everyone's posts on her subject, I just wanted to add a few little points which struck me when it comes to her and Sansa, namely:

- both witness their close family being killed by their husbands/betrothed: Joff kills Ned and Bronn kills Lollys' brother-in-law and exiles her sister - an act which leads to the latter's murder at the hands of Quyburn and Cersei.

- both are wanted primarily for their claims, and both, having outlived their primary usefulness (Lollys got old and was raped and Sansa is a traitors daughter) and are consequently dumped into a less important and less desirable marriage just to get them out of the way- this is why I believe Lollys sympathised enough with Sansa to cry at the wedding.

I actually think Lollys fared better with her marriage. Her mother was concerned about her being taken care of, but in the end, I assume it was Lollys choice to say yay or nay to Bronn. I also have this gut feeling (meaning hardly backed up with evidence) that Bronn isn't this evil asshole Tyrion and others assume he is. I think he is capable of being caring, supportive and protective of his spouse. I also see major differences in Lollys' witnessing of the murder of a family member. Balman challenged Bronn even though there was no evidence that Bronn was intending to make a play for power (taking in four sellswords is hardly threatening). Challenging Bronn endangerous Lollys and Bronn had a right to defend himself and his wife's interests. I think Bronn could have easily killed Falyse without blinking but I have a sneaking suspicion that Lollys requested that he didn't. They couldn't know that Cersei would hand her over to be tortured and killed.

- I think Sansa's helping Lollys into Maegor's was almost like a direct foreshadowing of her helping Sweetrobin accross the stone ridge on the descent from the Eyrie

I love this! Didn't even make the connection when I was reading.

[StarkWhite]

Seriously, I suggest you read through some of the previous threads. This has been dealt with in depth. I don't mean to be snarky, but Sansa being "stupid" is a common complaint and part of the "Sansa bingo" as it were. The people who think Sansa is stupid are Cersei and Joffrey. Littlefinger on the other hand calls her clever and Arya thinks Sansa is better at everything but sums. Sansa can also write poetry at age 11 and is said to be a better reader than all her brothers.

I also suggest that if you think Sansa is a Jane Bennett, you need to look at Sansa again. The only comparison I can think of to Marianne in S&S is that Sansa may come to love an older man (maybe), and even then, Marianne really loved Willoughby. The point of S&S is also to contrast Marianne's over emotional state with Elinor's too controlled, and that neither is a particularly good state to be in. S&S has very little to do with female agency. P&P has arguably a bit more, but it is more in how the material is presented than in the actual actions of the characters.

If you read through the Sansa threads, you'll find that Sansa's story arc is a lot about finding agency in a world where women are traditionally pawns in the ultimate sense of the word, which Cersei describes in her speech about being sold off to some stranger like a horse to be ridden whenever he wants it. Sansa has been the victim of 5 marriage alilances and she does not, as of the end of AFFC, want to marry again. She is also in the position that should she get out from under Littlefinger's thunb, she is without a patriarch. Which is a highly unusual situation for women to be in.

There are six reread threads and this is the seventh analysis thread the rereads spawned. Helpful link here.

Please also consider that this is a serious thread dedicated to detailed analysis of Sansa's story line and the themes introduced in it. Claiming that Sansa is stupid without backing it up with textual evidence is something better posted in one of the numerous "I hate Sansa" threads, which the search engine will happily bring up for you.

Sansa is an idiot. She told Cersei about Ned's plans to send off the girls from KL. She got herself imprisoned and everything that's happened to her since is her own fault. Also, please recall that Arya points out the fact that Sansa never had much of a head for figures just in case you're looking for additional textual evidence of her cognitive deficiencies. She can't put 2 & 2 together in either the literal or figurative sense. The best she can hope to accomplish in her terrible meaningless life other than mucking up everything she touches is kill Littlefinger.

Wow sure put me in my place. Sorry for sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong.

Careful Weasel. You'll be attacked for not conforming to the inflated opinions of the masses.

[A...]

I actually think Lollys fared better with her marriage. Her mother was concerned about her being taken care of, but in the end, I assume it was Lollys choice to say yay or nay to Bronn. I also have this gut feeling (meaning hardly backed up with evidence) that Bronn isn't this evil asshole Tyrion and others assume he is. I think he is capable of being caring, supportive and protective of his spouse. I also see major differences in Lollys' witnessing of the murder of a family member. Balman challenged Bronn even though there was no evidence that Bronn was intending to make a play for power (taking in four sellswords is hardly threatening). Challenging Bronn endangerous Lollys and Bronn had a right to defend himself and his wife's interests. I think Bronn could have easily killed Falyse without blinking but I have a sneaking suspicion that Lollys requested that he didn't. They couldn't know that Cersei would hand her over to be tortured and killed.

As a Bronn lover myself this is lovely to read - I would really, really like to see a nice relationship between him and his wife and the theory that he maybe spared Falyse because Lollys asked him sounds sweet. I know he killed Balman in a duel, but it wasn't exactly a super-honourable fight (that's not Bronn's style) but still I imagine it must have been disturbing to see (although of course nowhere near as disturbing as Ned getting the chop).

All in all there's very little textual evidence of the Bronn-Lollys relationship, so we can't really take a positive stance, but considering it was a marriage of mutual convenience, I'm inclined to think they entered it amicably at least. The point I was trying to make was just that both Sansa and Lollys have little control over 'their' men: and those men can be impulsive and act rashly sometimes and that they as women not only have to be subject to pawnification on the marriage market but have little agency once within a marrriage or betrothal. Whereas that is true of most Westerosi women, Sansa and Lollys have it doubly hard because one is a traitor's daughter and the other is so 'old' aka both should consider themselves 'lucky' to be married at all and not complain.

[Pod The Impaler]

As a Bronn lover myself this is lovely to read - I would really, really like to see a nice relationship between him and his wife and the theory that he maybe spared Falyse because Lollys asked him sounds sweet. I know he killed Balman in a duel, but it wasn't exactly a super-honourable fight (that's not Bronn's style)...

All in all there's very little textual evidence of the Bronn-Lollys relationship, so we can't really take a positive stance, but considering it was a marriage of mutual convenience, I'm inclined to think they entered it amicably at least. The point I was trying to make was just that both Sansa and Lollys have little control over 'their' men: and those men can be impulsive and act rashly sometimes and that they as women not only have to be subject to pawnification on the marriage market but have little agency once within a marrriage or betrothal. Whereas that is true of most Westerosi women, Sansa and Lollys have it doubly hard because one is a traitor's daughter and the other is so 'old' aka both should consider themselves 'lucky' to be married at all and not complain.

Well, more honourable than the "hunting accident" that was supposed to be the plan for dealing with Bronn.

After the rape though, I think Lolly's was incapable of much more than sobbing and being generally afraid of everything. (And can you really blame her? "Half a hundred times" - dare I say it, a certain husband of Sansa best not drweel on Lollys' fate, lest he remember a certain barracks full of guardsmen.) Lollys' family was just glad to be able to marry her to anyone wit "Ser" in front of his name.

Since this is a Sansa thread, back on topic:

I wonder if Sansa ever thinks back to Lollys' fate, after Joffrey's poisoned and she escapes KL.

No doubt she knows Tyrion is headed to a bad end because of that, but did she know enough to know this endangered Lollys through her connection to Bronn ? (Hell, did she even know who Bronn was?)

I think it would also horrify Sansa to know that Jeyne Poole went through much the same as Lollys.

Lollys is her "there but for the grace if the Seven go I" person. She was very close to getting the same in the riot, so I think she may have felt some duty to be kind to her, frustrating as that could be at times.

[A...]

Sansa is an idiot. She told Cersei about Ned's plans to send off the girls from KL. She got herself imprisoned and everything that's happened to her since is her own fault. Also, please recall that Arya points out the fact that Sansa never had much of a head for figures just in case you're looking for additional textual evidence of her cognitive deficiencies. She can't put 2 & 2 together in either the literal or figurative sense. The best she can hope to accomplish in her terrible meaningless life other than mucking up everything she touches is kill Littlefinger.

First off, difficulties in the field of mathematics are not proof of 'cognitive deficiencies'. Some people are simply more naturally inclined towards the humanities and I believe this is true of Sansa who writes poetry and loves to read. Also we do not know the extend of her problems with mathematics- perhaps she has dyscalculia? We do not know this and inability to calculate equations does not make you stupid.

As to Sansa telling Cersei about Ned's plans to send the girls away, yes she was acting impulsively, but you must make allowances here for her young age. This was a young girl's attempt at assuming some small portion of control over her life, opposing her father as it were - when Lyanna does this it's considered 'spirited' and praised, even though her actions also contribute in some small way to starting a war (if you believe she eloped with Rhaegar then in a big way).

As for everything that happens to her being her own fault, was it her fault that Robb started the Rebellion for which Joffrey punished her? Was it her fault that the Tyrells and Littlefinger used her as a pawn for murder? The fact she chose her geographic location does not make her responsible for everything that happened to her there! That responsibility lies with the cruelty and deceitfulness of people. Or are you denying Joffrey was cruel and malicious, the Tyrells manipulative and Littlefinger ruthless?

Finally, if you think Sansa is 'an idiot' nobody is forcing you to post in a thread dedicated to her character.

[StarkWhite]

Finally, if you think Sansa is 'an idiot' nobody is forcing you to post in a thread dedicated to her character.

I don't feel forced. I'm glad to have the opportunity to post an alternate POV and spice things up a bit. Don't get cranky when people disagree. It's amusing to me that whenever someone disagrees with your opinion, one of you feel the need to "show us the door". I'm just here to remind you that there are varying opinions of the topics/theories/characters. :)

[A...]

I don't feel forced. I'm glad to have the opportunity to post an alternate POV and spice things up a bit. Don't get cranky when people disagree. It's amusing to me that whenever someone disagrees with your opinion, one of you feel the need to "show us the door". I'm just here to remind you that there are varying opinions of the topics/theories/characters. :)

Of course, you have the right to post wherever you choose but the amusing thing here is that even though I have been on this forum for a very short time compared to some, all the posters that have come to this thread with negative comments have had pretty much the same views, very similar opinions, repetitive arguments, whereas the regular 'pro-Sansa' posters keep presenting new, surprising and challenging insight all the time (not all of which I agree with either, nota bene), enough of it to fuel 7 'rethinking' threads already (which I have already managed to read through and enjoy very much). Just saying.

[brashcandy]

I don't feel forced. I'm glad to have the opportunity to post an alternate POV and spice things up a bit. Don't get cranky when people disagree. It's amusing to me that whenever someone disagrees with your opinion, one of you feel the need to "show us the door". I'm just here to remind you that there are varying opinions of the topics/theories/characters. :)

You think you're spicing things up a little by calling Sansa an idiot? LOL and get real. After the first reread thread the kind of opinion you spew was long put to bed. At this stage you're just making yourself look foolish. If you continue to attempt the derail the thread, I'll simply report you to the mods, and that will be that. You are welcome to your opinion, but this is not the thread for it.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I think the kindness Sansa shows Lollys is indeed tied in with the kindness she shows Sweetrobin. She sees the humanity in people who many others think of as objects by which they can gain (Sweetrobin the sickly child heir) or push aside (Lollys, who is thought of as "simple-minded" but Sansa sees her as "placid." I wonder if Lollys really was just self-conscious, shy and withdrawn, but otherwise basically normal, until she was gangraped in a manner which would traumatize anyone. Poor Lollys! She needs someone to care about her. I hope Bronn treats her decently.)

Sansa knows what it's like to have outlived her usefulness, so to speak, and I hope that this enables her to rescue Sweetrobin somehow. Littlefinger plans to do away with him, because who will follow a sickly child? Well, that sickly child is the rightful heir to the Vale! And I don't think he's as sickly as that, just very badly brought up. He's not been raised like a normal little boy at all. Perhaps Sansa will be the one to take over his upbringing - he IS her cousin, after all - and bring out the normal little boy so he can grow up and rule the Vale. I don't see Sansa as marrying him, but I do see her as being able to take on a maternal or older-sister role and turn him into a normal kid. Sansa does have two little brothers, after all, so I am sure she has plenty of experience in what makes boys tick. He IS her family, and both of them need family.

Of course, she is going to have to watch out for Littlefinger, who does want Sweetrobin gone and is pretty good at covering his tracks. But Sansa now knows the measure of the man (as I am going to go into when I post my essay on Sansa and Lysa's Big Premortem Reveal). She is going to have to walk a delicate balance between protecting Sweetrobin and reassuring Littlefinger that she's his ally.

[StarkWhite]

You think you're spicing things up a little by calling Sansa an idiot? LOL and get real. After the first reread thread the kind of opinion you spew was long put to bed. At this stage you're just making yourself look foolish. If you continue to attempt the derail the thread, I'll simply report you to the mods, and that will be that. You are welcome to your opinion, but this is not the thread for it.

Report me for what? Disagreeing and presenting some points which occur in the books to back it up? Please do. Disagreement is not derailment. Please. That in my opinion makes you look foolish. I don't believe you control the thread because you're the OP. Get off your power trip.