From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

[Monica21]

Sansa is an idiot. She told Cersei about Ned's plans to send off the girls from KL. She got herself imprisoned and everything that's happened to her since is her own fault. Also, please recall that Arya points out the fact that Sansa never had much of a head for figures just in case you're looking for additional textual evidence of her cognitive deficiencies. She can't put 2 & 2 together in either the literal or figurative sense. The best she can hope to accomplish in her terrible meaningless life other than mucking up everything she touches is kill Littlefinger.

I'm not sure how Sansa "got herself" imprisoned. It really has nothing more to do than the geography of the Red Keep. Arya was training with Syrio and without his assistance (and probable death to keep her safe) she would have been captured too.

And what has happened to her? Well, she didn't behead her father, Joffrey did. Even Cersei didn't think Joffrey would do it. She was left without any aid after her father was killed. The only thing she could do was remember her armor. Her armor was the only thing that kept her safe. She was beaten by the Kingsguard at Joffrey's command. I'm not sure what you would have a 13-year-old girl in that position.

As to her "cognitive deficiencies" Arya states that Sansa is better at everything except sums. I read this to be math in general and not simply addition and subtraction. As A... pointed out, many people are more inclined toward the humanities than math. There is an instance where Joffrey taunts Tommen for crying as Myrcella is leaving for Dorne, and Sansa brings up several instances of princes crying. There is no fault in her memory or ability for recall, and her ability to reason is well-established when she picks up very quickly why Harry is the heir to the Vale. After Littlefinger's first meeting with the Lords Declarant she understands there is much more going on and needs the explanation from Littlefinger.

In short, she is not stupid and there is no textual evidence that she is. The only thing she could be faulted for is naivete and that is simply gone at the end of the first book.

I don't feel forced. I'm glad to have the opportunity to post an alternate POV and spice things up a bit. Don't get cranky when people disagree. It's amusing to me that whenever someone disagrees with your opinion, one of you feel the need to "show us the door". I'm just here to remind you that there are varying opinions of the topics/theories/characters.

Oh, come on now. I'm sure you don't feel forced, but I think we've all been around the internet long enough to know when someone has an actual, relevant argument and when said person is trolling. I'm sure you know which one you are. :) (See how the smiley face makes everything better?)

[StarkWhite]

Sansa was imprisoned after ratting to Cersei. So yes she can thank herself whether or not it was impulsive, or immature, naive, or however else you want to defend it. everything else that happened is just a ripple effect from this incident (and poor judgement). Everyone uses her age but come on people. You didn't know betrayal by the time you were 11? These really are my views, it doesn't make me a troll and I'm not trying to sway anyone. This is a discussion board. Don't forget. :) :)

[brashcandy]

Report me for what? Disagreeing and presenting some points which occur in the books to back it up? Please do. Disagreement is not derailment. Please. That in my opinion makes you look foolish. I don't believe you control the thread because you're the OP. Get off your power trip.

I'm going to quote what I said at the beginning of the fourth rethinking thread for your clarification StarkWhite:

And just as a general notice: this thread is open to those who want to "critique" Sansa's character - meaning to offer and explore constructive criticism relating to her arc, not for those who wish to simply expound on how the character holds no value to them and think she's shallow/weak or needs to grow up. A simply reread of the threads will bring needed enlightenment on those views, and you would be sparing all of us the headache of having to respond. And let me just clarify: I have absolutely no problem with engaging a poster who is genuinely interested in talking about Sansa, and who may have an opposing viewpoint about certain aspects of her arc. However, the basic starting premise should be an awareness that this is a thread where Sansa is always already assumed to be an important and meaningful character within the story, who has shown credible development over the course of the four books. I respect well thought out arguments which are based on textual evidence and interesting insight.

Your opinion that Sansa is an idiot is in no way constructive or based on a shred of textual evidence. As such, what you are doing constitutes "trolling" or otherwise an attempt to derail the thread and would warrant a report to the mods. [/power trip]

[Kittykatknits]

Perhaps the next thread could be made with a focus on Sansa's agency, especially with how she learns to claim her own agency via the role models that have been analyzed in this thread. We've really got into her her interactions with other women and how they may have influenced her, but I think it may be helpful to go a step further in this direction.

I really love the idea of agency as an overriding theme. There are several topics that fall under this I think:

- her marriage to Tyrion

- potential acts she will do in WoW to increase her influence in the Vale

- What she may do to counteract LF

- Her realization and growing knowledge of her own power.

Lots more topics too. We've brought up many different topics over the past couple days but I like bringing them together with these theme, it would help to drive discussion and help with focus.

Moving on to the subject of Whore/Madonna sexual based typecast characters, I believe GRRM (although he does a lot to combat this kind of prejudice) is not completely innocent of perpetrating these stereotypes: case in point, Cersei the whore. But this is not a Cersei thread, so I will withhold my rant on this subject for another thread.

Regarding the possible subjects for discussion, I would love a tapestries thread, they intrigue me immensely! As to the other topics, I will happily participate in any discussion, but for all it's worth, I'm not a big believer in Sansa as the Queen in the North and will probably oppose this idea vehemently. The idea of Sansa and Tyrion and what value their marriage has as a subject for serious discussion (NOT: Sansa should be nicer to Tyrion! Pout/sniff!) sounds interesting, since I have no idea where this will go except maybe it leading to a possible Sansa/Dany meeting/ friendship??

On Whore/Madonna, I agree with you. I don't think Martin was entirely successful of his portrayal with Sansa in GOT or Cersei in Feast.

Yes, I agree with these. @Lyanna Stark - another call for a tapestries thread. :) I would love to see Sansa and Dany meet someday.

I actually think Lollys fared better with her marriage. Her mother was concerned about her being taken care of, but in the end, I assume it was Lollys choice to say yay or nay to Bronn. I also have this gut feeling (meaning hardly backed up with evidence) that Bronn isn't this evil asshole Tyrion and others assume he is. I think he is capable of being caring, supportive and protective of his spouse. I also see major differences in Lollys' witnessing of the murder of a family member. Balman challenged Bronn even though there was no evidence that Bronn was intending to make a play for power (taking in four sellswords is hardly threatening). Challenging Bronn endangerous Lollys and Bronn had a right to defend himself and his wife's interests. I think Bronn could have easily killed Falyse without blinking but I have a sneaking suspicion that Lollys requested that he didn't. They couldn't know that Cersei would hand her over to be tortured and killed.

I am not even close to being a fan of Bronn but I share your assessment actually. I always thought Bronn was more about protecting his intinterists than cruelty for cruelty's sake. When he married Lollys, that extended to her. I won't call it a love match or anything close but I think he does the right things for her. Also, I loved your post on Lollys. I didn't get a chance to comment on it as I've had to pick my battles on threads today, everyone is breaking up threads that I want to be a part of.

[Monica21]

Sansa was imprisoned after ratting to Cersei. So yes she can thank herself whether or not it was impulsive, or immature, naive, or however else you want to defend it. everything else that happened is just a ripple effect from this incident (and poor judgement). Everyone uses her age but come on people. You didn't know betrayal by the time you were 11? These really are my views, it doesn't make me a troll and I'm not trying to sway anyone. This is a discussion board. Don't forget. :) :)

Still quite wrong, actually. First, Sansa didn't tell Cersei anything she didn't already know. Second, everything that happened was because Ned didn't get his daughters on the ship sooner. It wasn't a secret that Robert was going to die, but Ned trusted Littlefinger to get the Gold Cloaks for him. Littlefinger betrayed Ned. Sansa was simply caught in the crossfire, much like Arya.

And you still haven't provided any support for your claim. You have an opinion, but no basis for it.

[Kittykatknits]

Still quite wrong, actually. First, Sansa didn't tell Cersei anything she didn't already know. Second, everything that happened was because Ned didn't get his daughters on the ship sooner. It wasn't a secret that Robert was going to die, but Ned trusted Littlefinger to get the Gold Cloaks for him. Littlefinger betrayed Ned. Sansa was simply caught in the crossfire, much like Arya.

And you still haven't provided any support for your claim. You have an opinion, but no basis for it.

Indeed. Sansa had absolutely NO IDEA anything was going on. In fact, the very morning that everything happened, Ned wants again thinks to himself that he will wait until they are all back in WF before even telling her what was going on. It baffles me why she keeps getting blamed when Ned, on a constant basis, keeps her in the dark. He tells Arya but never bothers to inform his other daughter. If you do a breakdown of the timeline of events, it is very obvious that Sansa had little to do with the events of the day

/RantOverButIAmReallyGettingTiredOfThisThoughtFromPeopleWhenTheyAreFlatOutWrong

[StarkWhite]

I'm going to quote what I said at the beginning of the fourth rethinking thread for your clarification StarkWhite:

Your opinion that Sansa is an idiot is in no way constructive or based on a shred of textual evidence. As such, what you are doing constitutes "trolling" or otherwise an attempt to derail the thread and would warrant a report to the mods. [/power trip]

If you'll look back, I submitted two "facts" mentioned in the book. That's called textual evidence and is much more so than half the conjecture I've browsed within this post and is just as valid as the arguments you've made. While you're looking back, notice 23 other pages where the post topic was varied from, or conflicting opinions were given. You have a lot of reporting to do.

[brashcandy]

I really love the idea of agency as an overriding theme. There are several topics that fall under this I think:

- her marriage to Tyrion

- potential acts she will do in WoW to increase her influence in the Vale

- What she may do to counteract LF

- Her realization and growing knowledge of her own power.

Lots more topics too. We've brought up many different topics over the past couple days but I like bringing them together with these theme, it would help to drive discussion and help with focus.

Indeed. Also I've been thinking of how Dany's storyline in ADWD really helped to elucidate some central aspects of Sansa's, so perhaps additional focus can also be given to these other women whom Sansa has not met yet, but whose situations mirror her own in revealing ways.

[Kittykatknits]

Indeed. Also I've been thinking of how Dany's storyline in ADWD really helped to elucidate some central aspects of Sansa's, so perhaps additional focus can also be given to these other women whom Sansa has not met yet, but whose situations mirror her own in revealing ways.

I like this. Off the top of my head, I can think of Asha, Dany, Mel, Arianne, Also, I think it would be worth given a focus on women in the North as well, such as the Mormonts and Alys Karstark too. She is a daughter of the North after all.

[Lady Lea]

Oh, I have a question. Cersei talks about Petyr asking to marry Sansa. It must have been while Cat was still alive, because she only dies after Sansa is already married to Tyrion. So what was LF's motivation there? Did he really just want to marry Sansa and be done with it, forget about Cat? Or was it a plan to sort of "rescue" Sansa and take her to Cat, thus presenting himself to his "one love" as a saviour?

[Elba the Intoner]

Oh, I have a question. Cersei talks about Petyr asking to marry Sansa. It must have been while Cat was still alive, because she only dies after Sansa is already married to Tyrion. So what was LF's motivation there? Did he really just want to marry Sansa and be done with it, forget about Cat? Or was it a plan to sort of "rescue" Sansa and take her to Cat, thus presenting himself to his "one love" as a saviour?

Ha ha I have finally caught up on this thread. Wow!! It got to 12 pages in only two days! I mean, I go offline for a weekend and had to read nearly 20 pages to catch up - seriously don't you people all have lives? (Kidding). For real though I really liked a lot of the discussions on the different women who Sansa has interracted with and their influence on her. And welcome to all the new people on this thread. That's why it has grown so fast and it's great to see new people on here with new insights.

So, I can finally respond to something in a timely manner. Lady Lea I really think that once LF got a look at Sansa any thoughts of getting Cat back went out the window and he decided he had to have her. If you remember how their very first meeting was described it was clear LF was struck dumb. I don't have the book in front of me so can't quote directly but Sansa senses someone staring at her and then she sees LF and the first thing he says to her is, "You must be her daughter" or something close to that. Then he touches her hair while mentioning how Cat was once his Queen of love and beauty. As soon as he saw her I think the wheels started turning in his head that he would have to come up with a way to get her.

[brashcandy]

Oh, I have a question. Cersei talks about Petyr asking to marry Sansa. It must have been while Cat was still alive, because she only dies after Sansa is already married to Tyrion. So what was LF's motivation there? Did he really just want to marry Sansa and be done with it, forget about Cat? Or was it a plan to sort of "rescue" Sansa and take her to Cat, thus presenting himself to his "one love" as a saviour?

I think LF had long forgotten or at least stopped caring about "Cat, the woman." Over the years he became obsessed with "Cat, the idea" and this is what explains his desire for Sansa. He's well aware that Catelyn Stark can never be his, but she still represents the ideal attainment, the one thing that will prove once and for all that Petyr Baelish has made it, and that he's just as good as the Tullys and Starks of the world. So I definitely think he wanted to marry her for his own sake, and no intention of returning her to Cat.

[Lady Lea]

Ha ha I have finally caught up on this thread. Wow!! It got to 12 pages in only two days! I mean, I go offline for a weekend and had to read nearly 20 pages to catch up - seriously don't you people all have lives? (Kidding). For real though I really liked a lot of the discussions on the different women who Sansa has interracted with and their influence on her. And welcome to all the new people on this thread. That's why it has grown so fast and it's great to see new people on here with new insights.

So, I can finally respond to something in a timely manner. Lady Lea I really think that once LF got a look at Sansa any thoughts of getting Cat back went out the window and he decided he had to have her. If you remember how their very first meeting was described it was clear LF was struck dumb. I don't have the book in front of me so can't quote directly but Sansa senses someone staring at her and then she sees LF and the first thing he says to her is, "You must be her daughter" or something close to that. Then he touches her hair while mentioning how Cat was once his Queen of love and beauty. As soon as he saw her I think the wheels started turning in his head that he would have to come up with a way to get her.

Oh my gaaahd, so creepy. I think you're right. Here's the quote:

When Sansa finally looked up, a man was standing over her, staring. He was short, with a pointed beard and a silver streak in his hair, almost as old as her father. "You must be one of her daughters," he said to her. He had grey-green eyes that did not smile when his mouth did. "You have the Tully look."

"I’m Sansa Stark," she said, ill at ease. The man wore a heavy cloak with a fur collar, fastened with a silver mockingbird, and he had the effortless manner of a high lord, but she did not know him. "I have not had the honor, my lord."

Septa Mordane quickly took a hand. "Sweet child, this is Lord Petyr Baelish, of the king’s small council."

"Your mother was my queen of beauty once," the man said quietly. His breath smelled of mint. "You have her hair." His fingers brushed against her cheek as he stroked one auburn lock. Quite abruptly he turned and walked away.

ETA: What might this mean for Sansa then? Is he just waiting for another chance to marry her? :stillsick:

[brashcandy]

Oh my gaaahd, so creepy. I think you're right. Here's the quote:

ETA: What might this mean for Sansa then? Is he just waiting for another chance to marry her? :stillsick:

Yes. Someone mentioned upthread about LF seeing Sansa as the Queen in the North. Nope. She's always been his Queen of love and beauty, and that's how she's going to remain if he has a say in it. I also think that in his own twisted way he thinks he's won her, just like the winning knight at a tourney gets to name his choice of the fair maiden. He's played the game, he's outsmarted the other players and Sansa is his prize. What he's doing now in the Vale is tying up all the loose ends, securing his position, grooming Sansa and making sure that everything is set for his satisfaction.

[Cydonia]

I think LF had long forgotten or at least stopped caring about "Cat, the woman." Over the years he became obsessed with "Cat, the idea" and this is what explains his desire for Sansa. He's well aware that Catelyn Stark can never be his, but she still represents the ideal attainment, the one thing that will prove once and for all that Petyr Baelish has made it, and that he's just as good as the Tullys and Starks of the world. So I definitely think he wanted to marry her for his own sake, and no intention of returning her to Cat.

I'd have liked to see what scheme played out after Petyr married Sansa. In her last chapter in Clash of Kings, as he is granted Harrenhal, she notes what an empty honor it is and how her Tully relatives will not bend the knee to him, and how "Robb will beat him" if he must. But if Sansa Stark had been Lady of Harrenhal?

Even if he did have a plot in mind I think there was at least equal part infatuation at work there.

[brashcandy]

I'd have liked to see what scheme played out after Petyr married Sansa. In her last chapter in Clash of Kings, as he is granted Harrenhal, she notes what an empty honor it is and how her Tully relatives will not bend the knee to him, and how "Robb will beat him" if he must. But if Sansa Stark had been Lady of Harrenhal?

Even if he did have a plot in mind I think there was at least equal part infatuation at work there.

Sansa as Lady of Harrenhal would have been just as unbearable to her as Lady Lannister I would imagine, or perhaps even worse. I don't see LF waiting till she's older to consummate the marriage and even so he would have still expected his pervy kisses. LF and the daddy role he's enacting now is very much a pretence that developed because of the roundabout methods he had to use to secure Sansa's trust. Had he been able to actually marry her right away, we would have seen a much different dynamic in play.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'd have liked to see what scheme played out after Petyr married Sansa. In her last chapter in Clash of Kings, as he is granted Harrenhal, she notes what an empty honor it is and how her Tully relatives will not bend the knee to him, and how "Robb will beat him" if he must. But if Sansa Stark had been Lady of Harrenhal?

Even if he did have a plot in mind I think there was at least equal part infatuation at work there.

It's interesting as well that in ACOK Sansa realises it is an empty honour, which is correct, but she doesn't understand the further implications of it. Which, to be fair, neither Tywin nor Cersei did, and Tyrion only suspected. A lot of people underestimate LF for his lack of hard power, but he does his best to turn this disadvantage into an advantage, i.e. he knows his lack of hard power makes people underestimate him, which is great. They seem to look upon him as a cunning businessman with a knack for finding out information, but really LF is far more than that.

Also what brash said above. LF's perving is extremely creepy and it's really doubtful that he'd done a Tyrion and waited with consummating the marriage.

It was also hidden away cleverly in a Cersei chapter in ADWD that LF even wanted to marry her initially, gradually revealing just what an utter creep he is.

EDIT: also a general note on trolls: it's better to not engage them in discussion, use the ignore function if you must, or report them. So far these threads have been mostly troll free so lets try and keep them that way :) People who want to play Sansa bingo can do that somewhere else.

[Cydonia]

It was also hidden away cleverly in a Cersei chapter in ADWD that LF even wanted to marry her initially, gradually revealing just what an utter creep he is.

This is what I was referring to, actually, and creep though he may be, that marriage would've been another opportunity to screw with Westeros. The Riverlands were allied with Robb and weren't going to fall in line with any loyal Lannister subject (well, as far as they know) just because they slapped the Lord Paramount title on him, but if you throw Sansa Stark into the mix, then what? That's what interests me.

[Lyanna Stark]

This is what I was referring to, actually, and creep though he may be, that marriage would've been another opportunity to screw with Westeros. The Riverlands were allied with Robb and weren't going to fall in line with any loyal Lannister subject (well, as far as they know) just because they slapped the Lord Paramount title on him, but if you throw Sansa Stark into the mix, then what? That's what interests me.

The Riverlands would not follow Sansa/LF just because LF married her, since I think they would see it in a similar light to Sansa's marriage to Tyrion: forced marriage. Also, check Stannis' reaction to Sansa Lannister in ADWD. He doesn't want Sansa anywhere near Winterfell since she's married to Tyrion, which whether she wants it or not has made her "switch sides". Her alliegance is at best uncertain and at worst completely Lannister, according to that type of logic.

Hence why a LF/Sansa union would still not be much better for Sansa. Once the Lannister had defeated Robb, it may make the Riverlands accept LF as Lord Paramount a bit easier, but they had to get that shoved down their throat anyway via the baby in catapult threat courtesey of Jaime. The Blackfish would not have yielded Riverrun to Lf with a forcibly married Sansa, I think. It was only Edmure coming back in as its liege lord that made Riverrun yield. And the Blackfish buggered off.

[brashcandy]

Also Lyanna, doesn't LF get his lordship due to his services with arranging the Tyrell-Lannister alliance? Who knows how it would have played out had he been able to marry Sansa back in AGOT.