From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I really can see Sansa as Queen in the North. And now I'm thinking of it, does the prophecy of Maggy the Frog automatically mean that the younger and more beautiful queen will be queen in Cersei's place? Like, queen of the whole Kingdom? I mean, Sansa can become the queen in the North somehow, cast Cersei down and take all she holds dear, but it doesn't necessarily mean she has to become Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, right?

I think that the prophecy does indicate that a queen will cast her down. Sansa being queen in the north does make more sense then queen of the seven kingdoms. Sansa is at least for winterfell the third in succession and to the iron throne she would not have any claim. And honestly I would like to point out that unlike Daenerys ore the other candidates of the prophecy Sansa had a little foreshadow in the HBO version. In the episode of Blackwater, which was written by GRRM, Sansa and Shae are whispering about how Cersei thinks how stupid Sansa is then Shae suggests that Cersei could be jealous of Sansa. This is quite the odd for GRRM to add such line. I think it does foreshadow that Sansa being queen of Cersei's prophecy is likely.

[Mladen]

Rickon is THE problem, when we talk Sansa as the Queen of the North...She`s woman, she knows there are ways to become a Queen, and not being conquerer or anything else. I still think she will marruy the future King of Westeros whomever that be. As far for the pace of 2 books, look at SOS and what happenned in only one book...

[A...]

I think that the prophecy does indicate that a queen will cast her down. Sansa being queen in the north does make more sense then queen of the seven kingdoms. Sansa is at least for winterfell the third in succession and to the iron throne she would not have any claim. And honestly I would like to point out that unlike Daenerys ore the other candidates of the prophecy Sansa had a little foreshadow in the HBO version. In the episode of Blackwater, which was written by GRRM, Sansa and Shae are whispering about how Cersei thinks how stupid Sansa is then Shae suggests that Cersei could be jealous of Sansa. This is quite the odd for GRRM to add such line. I think it does foreshadow that Sansa being queen of Cersei's prophecy is likely.

This could be foreshadowing... or it might just be another attempt at humanising Cersei, which is the way the show has been going since episode 1. Either way, it's something I never noticed, so thanks for pointing that out. On the other hand we still have Sansa's dragonfly necklace mirroring the Dunk and Egg stories where Duncan wants to live a life of obscurity with Jenny of Oldstones... Ah, I'm so confused now! :unsure:

As far for the pace of 2 books, look at SOS and what happenned in only one book...

This is a valid point.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

This could be foreshadowing... or it might just be another attempt at humanising Cersei, which is the way the show has been going since episode 1. Either way, it's something I never noticed, so thanks for pointing that out. On the other hand we still have Sansa's dragonfly necklace mirroring the Dunk and Egg stories where Duncan wants to live a life of obscurity with Jenny of Oldstones... Ah, I'm so confused now! :unsure:

This is a valid point.

I have to disagree about the symbolism of the dragonfly necklace. I think that the dragonfly symbolizes for Sansa the change in perspective of self realization, and the kind of change that has it's source in mental and emotional maturity and the understanding of the deeper meaning of life.

[Mladen]

Episodes written by GRRM have to be watched carefully...One of main reasons I believe Sansa will become Queen is Blackwater episode...He alienated Sansa in that episode from Sansa in previous 18 like hundred lightening years away.

And @A..., are you going to bet that both WOW and DOS shall have at least 1000 pages :)

[A...]

I have to disagree about the symbolism of the dragonfly necklace. I think that the dragonfly symbolizes for Sansa the change in perspective of self realization, and the kind of change that has it's source in mental and emotional maturity and the understanding of the deeper meaning of life.

I see what you're getting at here... does anybody remember when it first appears in the series? Does it replace Joff's necklace? If so then that would fit with your theory QueenSansaStark and also not be in contradiction with Sansa's eventual becoming queen...

[Lyanna Stark]

A couple of thinks regarding Sansa, Cerei and Sansa as Queen:

Sansa starts out as a future Queen when she is betrothed to Joffrey. In early AGOT, this is what she wants and dreams of. Then later Cersei tells her that she will be Joffrey's Queen and how Cersei was completely powerless as Robert's Queen. Sansa cannot process it then, but to be a Queen in anything but your own right means to be a broodmare. In this Cersei is correct. This is also what Daario points out to Dany in Meereen: Queens are normally for giving birth to babies, they do not rule.

Should Sansa marry someone and become Queen, she will be right back where she started from. Her agency would derive from the King, whomever that may be, and not from herself. I firmly believe this goes against Sansa's arc so far. What she has learnt is that she wants to find her way back to her family, she wants to be loved for herself and she does not want to be force into a marriage of convenience for her claim.

When it comes to the North, Rickon is the heir, unless Bran comes back from his treeform. Sansa is second or third in line, and depending on Robb's will, she may be completely disinherited. This means she can act as guardian and Regent for Bran or Rickon until they come of age once she is 16 herself, but unless she wants to usurp her brothers' claim to Winterfell, which I do not think she wants, it is unlikely Sansa will inherit it.

What is perhaps more interesting from her personal happiness point of view is that should she manage to get rid of her marriage to Tyrion, get out from under LF's thumb and be over the age of 16, she has no patriarch who can decide whom she should marry. She will be her own person, at least until her brother(s) come of age.

As a sidenote people: please limit the discussion of the show to a minimum. It is not canon and never will be. It is also possible that should too much show influence enter a thread, it will be moved to the show forums.

[Mladen]

Lyanna, that`s good thinking...But I believe in any case, if Sansa becomes Queen, she would be something like Catherine of Aragon (before the divorce). Catherine was Queen Regent, she led armies while Henry VIII was in France, she was respected as someone very clever. Sansa will have power, not through her husband, or her children. She`ll be Queen Cersei has never been. Cersei was brought just for breeding, Sansa will have opportunity to be an equal to her husband...

[Lady Sansa Stark]

A couple of thinks regarding Sansa, Cerei and Sansa as Queen:

Sansa starts out as a future Queen when she is betrothed to Joffrey. In early AGOT, this is what she wants and dreams of. Then later Cersei tells her that she will be Joffrey's Queen and how Cersei was completely powerless as Robert's Queen. Sansa cannot process it then, but to be a Queen in anything but your own right means to be a broodmare. In this Cersei is correct. This is also what Daario points out to Dany in Meereen: Queens are normally for giving birth to babies, they do not rule.

Should Sansa marry someone and become Queen, she will be right back where she started from. Her agency would derive from the King, whomever that may be, and not from herself. I firmly believe this goes against Sansa's arc so far. What she has learnt is that she wants to find her way back to her family, she wants to be loved for herself and she does not want to be force into a marriage of convenience for her claim.

When it comes to the North, Rickon is the heir, unless Bran comes back from his treeform. Sansa is second or third in line, and depending on Robb's will, she may be completely disinherited. This means she can act as guardian and Regent for Bran or Rickon until they come of age once she is 16 herself, but unless she wants to usurp her brothers' claim to Winterfell, which I do not think she wants, it is unlikely Sansa will inherit it.

What is perhaps more interesting from her personal happiness point of view is that should she manage to get rid of her marriage to Tyrion, get out from under LF's thumb and be over the age of 16, she has no patriarch who can decide whom she should marry. She will be her own person, at least until her brother(s) come of age.

As a sidenote people: please limit the discussion of the show to a minimum. It is not canon and never will be. It is also possible that should too much show influence enter a thread, it will be moved to the show forums.

Well, if Rickon comes back in the next book and somehow can reclaim Winterfell (the North is up to something at least) then Sansa could be his regent I think. Maybe in the last book. Wouldn't she be Queen Regent, just like Cersei is now Tommen is an underaged King? Problem with that is that Sansa is thirteen at the moment (maybe just turned 14) so the sixth book would have to comprise 2 years..

And then there are the Others and the fight with those creatures. i don't think there's much time for Sansa to become Queen if Winter is Here and the Others are coming.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyanna, that`s good thinking...But I believe in any case, if Sansa becomes Queen, she would be something like Catherine of Aragon (before the divorce). Catherine was Queen Regent, she led armies while Henry VIII was in France, she was respected as someone very clever. Sansa will have power, not through her husband, or her children. She`ll be Queen Cersei has never been. Cersei was brought just for breeding, Sansa will have opportunity to be an equal to her husband...

But she cannot. Sansa has no way to make a power grab in her own right, unlike Dany who has dragons. People tend to think it's because she is a Targaryen, but really Dany's foundation for power is not her name, but her Westerosi equivalent of a nuclear deterrent. Sansa has nothing like this, so cannot wield power. The only way for Sansa to rule as Queen is to become a widow to the current King and their heir, and then rule as Cersei as Queen Regent. There is no other logical way for it to happen, hence I think any theories of that kind must be labelled as "crackpot" since they are very far removed from what is reasonable.

Well, if Rickon comes back in the next book and somehow can reclaim Winterfell (the North is up to something at least) then Sansa could be his regent I think. Maybe in the last book. Wouldn't she be Queen Regent, just like Cersei is now Tommen is an underaged King? Problem with that is that Sansa is thirteen at the moment (maybe just turned 14) so the sixth book would have to comprise 2 years..

And then there are the Others and the fight with those creatures. i don't think there's much time for Sansa to become Queen if Winter is Here and the Others are coming.

Sansa would be 14 and a bit at the end of ADWD. It is also possible that things will slow down somewhat due to Winter, since movement is slower during winter as default. There is also the possibility that everything will not be resolved in two books (I tend to think it won't be if it continues at the pace of AFFC and ADWD, which I personally am fine with.)

[A...]

Episodes written by GRRM have to be watched carefully...One of main reasons I believe Sansa will become Queen is Blackwater episode...He alienated Sansa in that episode from Sansa in previous 18 like hundred lightening years away.

And @A..., are you going to bet that both WOW and DOS shall have at least 1000 pages :)

All this depends on how much we accept GGRM's contribution to GOT to be canon. Besides we know that other writers also worked on Blackwater with him, if I remember correctly. But regarding your main point, you're right, Sansa does show good leadership qualities in the Red Keep, when she keeps the ladies' spirits up. I'm just not sure if she will get to show those qualities as queen.

As regards the lengths of the books, I'm more inclined to think somewhere around 1200 haha.

A couple of thinks regarding Sansa, Cerei and Sansa as Queen:

Sansa starts out as a future Queen when she is betrothed to Joffrey. In early AGOT, this is what she wants and dreams of. Then later Cersei tells her that she will be Joffrey's Queen and how Cersei was completely powerless as Robert's Queen. Sansa cannot process it then, but to be a Queen in anything but your own right means to be a broodmare. In this Cersei is correct. This is also what Daario points out to Dany in Meereen: Queens are normally for giving birth to babies, they do not rule.

Should Sansa marry someone and become Queen, she will be right back where she started from. Her agency would derive from the King, whomever that may be, and not from herself. I firmly believe this goes against Sansa's arc so far. What she has learnt is that she wants to find her way back to her family, she wants to be loved for herself and she does not want to be force into a marriage of convenience for her claim.

When it comes to the North, Rickon is the heir, unless Bran comes back from his treeform. Sansa is second or third in line, and depending on Robb's will, she may be completely disinherited. This means she can act as guardian and Regent for Bran or Rickon until they come of age once she is 16 herself, but unless she wants to usurp her brothers' claim to Winterfell, which I do not think she wants, it is unlikely Sansa will inherit it.

What is perhaps more interesting from her personal happiness point of view is that should she manage to get rid of her marriage to Tyrion, get out from under LF's thumb and be over the age of 16, she has no patriarch who can decide whom she should marry. She will be her own person, at least until her brother(s) come of age.

As a sidenote people: please limit the discussion of the show to a minimum. It is not canon and never will be. It is also possible that should too much show influence enter a thread, it will be moved to the show forums.

I agree with the above analysis of Sansa's arc and how it would be a step down in her evolution as a character to be a breeding mare for some king. When we consider who this king is likely to be I like it even less, since our likely candidates for king are at present:

1) Stannis - who already has a wife and an exotic red lover to boot

2) fAegon - temper, temper aka if the guy has a tantrum over a game of Cyvasse then I don't see him being stable enough to be a good king in the future

3) Jon Snow - related/sees her as a sister so just plain NOOO

4) *Crackpot because he's the only one who thinks he will be king of Westeros - Euron - double no with fudge and sprinkles, for obvious reasons

EDIT: to mention Tommen, who is king at present, but whose future I think looks bleak

5) Tommen - already married, loves Marg to bits

[Mladen]

But she cannot. Sansa has no way to make a power grab in her own right, unlike Dany who has dragons. People tend to think it's because she is a Targaryen, but really Dany's foundation for power is not her name, but her Westerosi equivalent of a nuclear deterrent. Sansa has nothing like this, so cannot wield power. The only way for Sansa to rule as Queen is to become a widow to the current King and their heir, and then rule as Cersei as Queen Regent. There is no other logical way for it to happen, hence I think any theories of that kind must be labelled as "crackpot" since they are very far removed from what is reasonable.

Damn it woman, you destroyed my dreams, I wanted to see her Queen of Westeros. But, you have every right to say so. You`re completely right, and I (hate to admit this) was wrong

[Lady Sansa Stark]

But she cannot. Sansa has no way to make a power grab in her own right, unlike Dany who has dragons. People tend to think it's because she is a Targaryen, but really Dany's foundation for power is not her name, but her Westerosi equivalent of a nuclear deterrent. Sansa has nothing like this, so cannot wield power. The only way for Sansa to rule as Queen is to become a widow to the current King and their heir, and then rule as Cersei as Queen Regent. There is no other logical way for it to happen, hence I think any theories of that kind must be labelled as "crackpot" since they are very far removed from what is reasonable.

Sansa would be 14 and a bit at the end of ADWD. It is also possible that things will slow down somewhat due to Winter, since movement is slower during winter as default. There is also the possibility that everything will not be resolved in two books (I tend to think it won't be if it continues at the pace of AFFC and ADWD, which I personally am fine with.)

Yes, I'm afraid that a Dream of Spring won't be the last book.. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, apart from the fact that that would mean we have to wait for at least 20 years if we are lucky.

[A...]

Yes, I'm afraid that a Dream of Spring won't be the last book.. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, apart from the fact that that would mean we have to wait for at least 20 years if we are lucky.

I envisage a AFFC/ADWD type scenario as in 'whoops, ADOS got so loooong, let's split it into three books!' and a collective sigh from readers everywhere.

[Kittykatknits]

What I learned from Mya in regards to Sansa is that though Randa is the one constantly chattering on about men, marriages, what happens in bed and more, Mya is the one who is much closer to Sansa where matters of the heart are concerned…

Great parallels on Mya and Sansa! I got the impression that Mya was making a very strong impresion on Sansa, her comments seemed to incite quite a bit of thinking on Sansa's part. Mya tells Sansa that she is refusing husbands which is the first time that Sansa has heard that message. Up until, now she's been forced to accept but Mya is pointing out that Sansa has a choice. Mya wants control over her life and Sansa very much wants the same thing.

& that brings me to Lothor Brune and Sansa’s future romantic decisions. This man trusts Sansa, showing us her ability to have “commoners” open up to her. He tells her the story of his childhood, and Sansa notices that he always smiles when he speaks of Mya. Sansa ends up measuring him up pretty good with:

Of course Sansa isn’t really a bastard girl, and she can do much better than that. But then the whole Winterfell claim issue would have to be dragged out, and maybe that’s something Sansa does not want? I’m not saying that she should forget Winterfell and stay a Stone forever, but maybe knowing for the first time true happiness and love was only possible while she was pretending to be a bastard. And so when the time for Sansa Stark to appear again comes, Sansa will treasure what she knew as a Stone enough to not let go of it? She has the exampled of Lysa & Cersei to guide her as well…

It’s like what Lady Lea said in a previous post:

& then Elba the Intoner and Kittykat touched the issue with these:

Anyways, besides the love issue, Sansa manages to break Alayne’s composed matured thread of thoughts when Mya is concerned. We see the younger ladylike Sansa appear as she does the Lothor/Mya match-making and even remarks that if Mya would only wear girl clothes, she could be pretty... & then the whole “Do you think Ser Lothor prefers her in mail or satin?” thoughts...

From what I’ve seen of the Sansa, Mya & Rands together, i think that it would be nice if Sansa ended up as the sort of Marg of the trio. Marg was the little leader of the tyrell cousins group, and Sansa is very strong and inspires people to break allegiances and help her, so I’m hoping Mya will have an important part to play in Sansa’s role in the next book. Alongside lothor maybe?

I’m sure that even though being a Stone is at present useful and safe and maybe even fun, Sansa Stark will appear again. Mya may love the Vale and the mountains are her home, but Sansa lets us know exactly what she thinks of a stone (whether it be the surname or the actual living in the Vale with LF or with Harry means) with this passage:

I think that this means that Sansa does care about Winterfell and that just as the snow covers up the stone, Sansa will end up controlling Alayne, not the other way around. So maybe that means LF’s influence won’t pay off in the end and Sansa will still be honorable, good, compassionate... just a bit more wised up? And will rule through love, not fear? And live a happy life where love for her family is first and foremost atop the list?

& that brings me to Lothor Brune and Sansa’s future romantic decisions. This man trusts Sansa, showing us her ability to have “commoners” open up to her. He tells her the story of his childhood, and Sansa notices that he always smiles when he speaks of Mya. Sansa ends up measuring him up pretty good with:

Anyways, besides the love issue, Sansa manages to break Alayne’s composed matured thread of thoughts when Mya is concerned. We see the younger ladylike Sansa appear as she does the Lothor/Mya match-making and even remarks that if Mya would only wear girl clothes, she could be pretty... & then the whole “Do you think Ser Lothor prefers her in mail or satin?” thoughts...

Lothor opening up to Sansa here reminding me of Sandor telling her the story of his House. I think we got a very big hint that Sansa is going to find allies in both Lothor and Mya. She saw that he has feelings for Mya and is wondering how it will develop and also looks to be gaining his trust too. I think there is a good chance we are going to see an example of ruling through love in WoW with these two.

@A: I'm surprised that in your analysis of Cersei/Sansa,you don't mention Cersei having done what we have often discussed what Sansa may do in the future: namely carry on with the man she loves outside of an oppressive/unwanted marriage.

I've long thought this is a real possibilty for Sansa. She's seen marriages based upon love and well, not. She wants to be loved for herself and I don't think she will give up on that. But, I can see Sansa being willing to find creative ways to bring that about. She's figured out that marriage is not just about love so may be willing to seperate the two later.

@A, I disagree with you about Sansa not being Queen. Why? OK, we have many potential ladies who would be fit for Queen. Dany, Margaery, Sansa and Arianne. If we think that the next Queen shall be younger Queen from maegi`s prophecy, any of these ladies(except of Sansa) has something against her.

I really can see Sansa as Queen in the North. And now I'm thinking of it, does the prophecy of Maggy the Frog automatically mean that the younger and more beautiful queen will be queen in Cersei's place? Like, queen of the whole Kingdom? I mean, Sansa can become the queen in the North somehow, cast Cersei down and take all she holds dear, but it doesn't necessarily mean she has to become Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, right?

Sansa as Queen in the North is more probable than Sansa as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms but in such a scenario what happens to Rickon, who should inherit the title as next male in line? I mean I know he's a savage and all that but he's still a kid, maybe there's hope for him yet? I certainly hope he doesn't die. that would be tragic. I think it's more realistic Sansa will be Rickon's regent or his second in command ...

Besides all that how do you see Sansa going from bastard under LF's control to Queen in TWO books - even considering this is a fantasy series, that isn't very much time at all...

Maggy the Frog's prophecy does not say anything about a younger, more beautiful queen. That's us, the readers, adding to it. The prophecy just says "queen you shall be" until someone "younger and more beautiful takes everything you hold dear". I think focusing on the idea that this person MUST be a queen means we are putting to narrow a focus on it. I'm not saying that Sansa won't be a queen but that is not at all a requirement for the prophecy. Either way, at this stage, since we are supposed to be moving towards the ending of the series, I don't see scenarios where Sansa will emerge as the queen. She's posing as a bastard girl in the Vale, wanted for regicide, and would need her marriage annulled.

[Kittykatknits]

Years later, I agree with Kittykatnis, Cersei does project onto Sansa, but I believe that is more from a serious similarity between the early lives of the two and also maybe some kind of pity from knowing what is in store for Sansa. This makes me think of a quote from the show, which I'm not sure was in the books about how Sansa might not love the king but will love his children, which in turn made me think of Sweetrobin, whose mother tried to kill Sansa but whom she still looks after and feels affection for. Okay maybe this was a bit of a far-fetched comparison, haha.

Great analysis! I remember first reading the scenes between them many years ago and feelig very bad for Sansa as it seemed that what Cersei was telling her was going to be Sansa's future. I think Cersei saw some similarities between them and projected Sansa's future based upon that. Of course, Cersei didn't tell Sansa that she had Jaime for comfort all those years either. As to that, quote, it is in the books. There are many references like this that make me think of Ser Sweetrobin too. I really think she is going to end up saving him.

OK, first before I take on Cersei, let me just say that this thread has become THE BEST organised thread in entire forum. Our theories and opinions are not crazy and unrealistic, thoughts come from very distinctive reading, without wild imagination and quite constructive opinions. I can`t be more proud on all of us, and these great posts...brash, kitty, caro, lyanna, lady lea, A.., and many others, thank you for giving me such delight in writing my posts...It`s privelege being one of you... :bowdown:

And now, let`s talk about Cersei. I adore how Cersei thinks about women`s weapon. That, for sure, is a powerful weapon, but it`s not enough in Game. Remember how LF said that her power comes from her beauty, wealth and origin, and that only thing she actually has is beauty, and even now it`s fading. One of the main reasons Cersei has become so desperate ruler is that she can`t understand that sex isn`t everything...

You are right about Cersei and women's weapons. She attempts to use it in Feast with the Kettleblack brothers but when you read those scenes, it looks more as if they are using her instead. I foud those passages rather hard to watch. They show just how limiting this approach is. Sansa's way of inspiring loyatly may take more work but it is much more effective in the long run.

Episodes written by GRRM have to be watched carefully...One of main reasons I believe Sansa will become Queen is Blackwater episode...He alienated Sansa in that episode from Sansa in previous 18 like hundred lightening years away.

I see what you're getting at here... does anybody remember when it first appears in the series? Does it replace Joff's necklace? If so then that would fit with your theory QueenSansaStark and also not be in contradiction with Sansa's eventual becoming queen...

I really think we need to think of the show and the books as two different entitities. We already know that D&D have made conscious decisions to make changes from the books. You can look to the show for evidence of what may happen in the show but that's it.

[Mortal Engines]

Firstly, its nice to meet you all in this thread, I've been reading the Sansa thread for a while and its been one of the most interesting on the board (imo it should be a sticky thread like R+L=J is).

Should Sansa marry someone and become Queen, she will be right back where she started from. Her agency would derive from the King, whomever that may be, and not from herself. I firmly believe this goes against Sansa's arc so far. What she has learnt is that she wants to find her way back to her family, she wants to be loved for herself and she does not want to be force into a marriage of convenience for her claim.

You're 100% right and you also crushed my dreams of Sansa being Queen by the end. I was seriously hoping for it but now you've convinced that it's not only unlikely to happen but wrong if it does as she won't have the agency she wants (and deserves imo).

I'm personally now seeing only a few other possibilities for Sansa. I don't think she'll be Lady of Winterfell (for reasons you covered as well Lyanna) but I could see her taking over the Vale once/if she gets rid of LF. Or she could end up taking over the Tully line if Edmure and his child die and Blackfish doesn't step in.

But I think it's also likely is that she'll disappear out of the game once the game is over. While she'll definitely become a player in it, I don't think she'll remain in it once the immediate threats are over. I could see her continuing to pretend to be a bastard with limited power and living a happy life in solitude. Or possibly, she can maintain her role as bastard of LF (even after getting rid of him) and becoming a player of the game with no/little titles similar to LF before he got his lordship and Varys. This again would give her the agency she wanted.

She is definitely starting to see the benefits of being a bastard that is acknowledged.

I could even see her ending up as a Master of Coin for whoever gets the throne (if the Iron throne is still there by the end of the series)

[Lady Sansa Stark]

You're 100% right and you also crushed my dreams of Sansa being Queen by the end. I was seriously hoping for it but now you've convinced that it's not only unlikely to happen but wrong if it does as she won't have the agency she wants (and deserves imo).

I'm personally now seeing only a few other possibilities for Sansa. I don't think she'll be Lady of Winterfell (for reasons you covered as well Lyanna) but I could see her taking over the Vale once/if she gets rid of LF. Or she could end up taking over the Tully line if Edmure and his child die and Blackfish doesn't step in.

But I think it's also likely is that she'll disappear out of the game once the game is over. While she'll definitely become a player in it, I don't think she'll remain in it once the immediate threats are over. I could see her continuing to pretend to be a bastard with limited power and living a happy life in solitude. Or possibly, she can maintain her role as bastard of LF (even after getting rid of him) and becoming a player of the game with no/little titles similar to LF before he got his lordship and Varys. This again would give her the agency she wanted.

She is definitely starting to see the benefits of being a bastard that is acknowledged.

I could even see her ending up as a Master of Coin for whoever gets the throne (if the Iron throne is still there by the end of the series)

to take over the Vale, she would have to marry Harry the Heir and I don't see her doing that, considering she's done with the arranged marriage. If Harry should die and Sweetrobin as well, there will be another one who's Heir to the Vale.

Then there is the problem of her being Sansa with her Tully characteristics . She's running out of hairdye as we've seen in AFFC - what does this mean? There is a high chance she will be recognized sooner rather than later. Then it will be very hard to maintain her role as bastard of Littlefinger. If she comes any close to Kings landing, she will be recognized immediately.

GOSH I just want to read TWOW. ._.

[Winter's Knight]

I could even see her ending up as a Master of Coin for whoever gets the throne (if the Iron throne is still there by the end of the series)

Sometimes, I amuse myself by imagining a Girl Power Royal Court:

Queen: Dany

Hand: Sansa

Mistress of Whispers: Arya

Captain of the KG: Brienne

[A...]

Maggy the Frog's prophecy does not say anything about a younger, more beautiful queen. That's us, the readers, adding to it. The prophecy just says "queen you shall be" until someone "younger and more beautiful takes everything you hold dear". I think focusing on the idea that this person MUST be a queen means we are putting to narrow a focus on it. I'm not saying that Sansa won't be a queen but that is not at all a requirement for the prophecy. Either way, at this stage, since we are supposed to be moving towards the ending of the series, I don't see scenarios where Sansa will emerge as the queen. She's posing as a bastard girl in the Vale, wanted for regicide, and would need her marriage annulled.

I completely forgot that was how the prophecy was worded! Duh, silly me for spending too much time in the fandom and not concentrating on the books! :blushing: Well, this makes me think that a lot of that has already come true with Margaery...

I'm personally now seeing only a few other possibilities for Sansa. I don't think she'll be Lady of Winterfell (for reasons you covered as well Lyanna) but I could see her taking over the Vale once/if she gets rid of LF. Or she could end up taking over the Tully line if Edmure and his child die and Blackfish doesn't step in.

But I think it's also likely is that she'll disappear out of the game once the game is over. While she'll definitely become a player in it, I don't think she'll remain in it once the immediate threats are over. I could see her continuing to pretend to be a bastard with limited power and living a happy life in solitude. Or possibly, she can maintain her role as bastard of LF (even after getting rid of him) and becoming a player of the game with no/little titles similar to LF before he got his lordship and Varys. This again would give her the agency she wanted.

I think the Blackfish disappearing so conveniently has to have some significance an that maybe he will have some future interaction with Sansa...? The Tully line though - no, she's a Stark and always will be a Stark.

As to Sansa's disappearing from the game/remaining in the game, I really can't say, this is one of the main points I'm divided about in her storyline (as opposed to things like her eventually being recognised as herself or her not becoming Queen which I am pretty sure of). If she does stay though, I'm inclined to think it won't be from greed/the fun of it like LF but because she would at that point convinced that she can do some good/help people that way.