From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

[Lady Lea]

This would be handy, but from what we know of Tyrion - do we really think it likely he would admit to something like this? Not a chance in the seven hells, methinks. He's waaaay too full of himself when it comes to his supposed prowess in bed.

I know, that's what I thought, but Giovanni was a very proud man as well. He was sort of forced into admitting this even though it wasn't true. Maybe if Sansa gets some leverage. But Tyrion would NOT be happy.

[Mortal Engines]

All this talk of LF finding a way to annul the marriage if he wants (he'll have to if he wants to marry Sansa as Sansa Stark to Harry the Heir) makes me think that it won't happen due to this being you know, a GRRM book and him tending to not do the obvious. It would be too obvious if her marriage to Tyrion is just annulled by LF. I think that either Sansa will remain married to Tyrion unless he dies but the two will never actually come in contact again (especially if she never becomes Sansa Stark ever again) or Tyrion will find a way to annul the marriage himself.

OR the High Sparrow is removed (very likely) and the chaos that ensues allows Tyrion and Sansa's marriage to easily be struck off the record with little care from the Faith (who would be pretty unorganized once the High Sparrow is dead).

Also in terms of Sansa becoming Queen other than Lyanna's post convincing me, there is also the fact that Ned said Arya would marry a prince. Arya did respond saying "No, that's Sansa" but I've always seen it as foreshadowing that the two will actually reverse roles. Sansa, the more obvious one to become Queen is in fact that one who never marries/becomes a lady while Arya, the unruly, wild girl, is the one who becomes the lady and marries the Prince. It's the sort of bittersweet twist ending I could see GRRM pull off and I've not seen many people believe that Ned's half of the foreshadowing is correct and not Arya's. I know at the moment, Arya doesn't seem likely to take on this role (becoming a FM and all that) but I mean, who thought a few books ago that Arya would end up in Braavos becoming a FM anyway? Nothing is obvious in GRRM's books and IF Arya did marry a prince, it wouldn't necessarily be the Prince to the Iron Throne.

EDIT: Though I could just be looking too deep into things and it really was just Ned trying to convince Arya to be more lady-like :dunno:

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Also in terms of Sansa becoming Queen other than Lyanna's post convincing me, there is also the fact that Ned said Arya would marry a prince. Arya did respond saying "No, that's Sansa" but I've always seen it as foreshadowing that the two will actually reverse roles. Sansa, the more obvious one to become Queen is in fact that one who never marries/becomes a lady while Arya, the unruly, wild girl, is the one who becomes the lady and marries the Prince. It's the sort of bittersweet twist ending I could see GRRM pull off and I've not seen many people believe that Ned's half of the foreshadowing is correct and not Arya's. I know at the moment, Arya doesn't seem likely to take on this role (becoming a FM and all that) but I mean, who thought a few books ago that Arya would end up in Braavos becoming a FM anyway? Nothing is obvious in GRRM's books and IF Arya did marry a prince, it wouldn't necessarily be the Prince to the Iron Throne.

EDIT: Though I could just be looking too deep into things and it really was just Ned trying to convince Arya to be more lady-like :dunno:

We shall see - only the author knows for sure!

I could live with Sansa being a lady; I would :crying: :crying: :crying: if she were to lead a life of childless celibacy at the end. I'd be happy to hav her alive, but it would be beyond just "bittersweet" - really really sad - if Sansa didn't get the family she wants. Even if she were to remain Alayne and living quietly at the Fingers, or in an arranged marriage - as long as it was happy - or heck, deciding to love Tyrion! - "no husband, no kids, no sex, not ever" would be heartbreaking. Just my perspective. :) (Not that every woman needs a husband or kids - I think Arya, and perhaps Meera Reed, would be happy that way. Not Sansa. She is a Mother archetype, not a Maid.)

[brashcandy]

Tyrion wouldn't have to be present though. What Littlefinger needs is for someone who is "Tysha" to testify to the High Septon that the marriage was never annulled... :)

Tyrion is not needed for this. If the woman herself identifies herself as Tysha, well, with Tyrion's really bad reputation what with being a Lannister kinslayer and kingslayer and a proper sob story, who is going to say no? Perhaps LF can sweeten the deal for the Faith as well, since it seems the High Sparrow is not beyond being bartered with if there is something he really wants at the other end. And we already know he dislikes the Lannisters for beheading Ned on the stairs to the Sept of Baelor, and also for Cersei's transgressions, plus I am certain he has heard of Tommen being an abomination born of incest.

And LF may already have practice with this kind of deception. We're still not sure if the man he procured for the benefit of Nestor Royce was actually Marillion.

OK, here's me being crackpot, but I've given some thought to Sansa's destiny, and if she can't be queen, and wouldn't be happy being Lady of Something, and wouldn't be happy as Sansa the Maid for life either...

Perhaps she could revitalize the Westerosi economy and be the equivalent of a businesswoman? Let me explain. First of all, she's being sponsored/groomed/whatever by Littlefinger, who was Master of Coin. She was married to Tyrion, who also served as Master of Coin, and is linked with money several times in the text (most notably in ADWD where he is signing all those promissory notes). She's now in contact with Mya, who is the Westerosi equivalent of a businesswoman (she earns a good, independent livelihood by provisioning the Eyrie).

Littlefinger shows Sansa his home and says he is "king of sheepshit" (paraphrased). Sheep are useful! People eat mutton and lamb and wear wool. If Sansa puts two and two together, she could turn the Fingers into a sheep ranch and coin it in. Jon has an idea (somewhere) of bringing Myrish glassblowers (IIRC) to the North to provide a business base. And if she decides to be Alayne Stone forever, and inherits Petyr's property (as his only surviving child - who else would inherit, and would the Crown want the Fingers?) she could do a lot with it as far as, for instance, raising sheep is concerned. Raise sheep + sell wool and mutton = profit!

Arya notes that Sansa is good at everything except math - with the former Master of Coin mentoring her I think she is meant to get better at that. Westeros is going to need an economic boost pretty badly, and the Eastern countries look to be doing well as mercantile economies. Davos made himself Hand of the King due to his being able to provide Stannis with practical things like food and sail power.

This is my being crackpot but Sansa the Merchant might be a good path for her; she could have her autonomy, use her brains, and marry whom she chooses and have her family. And Westeros could really use someone like that - someone who could be useful on a practical level and not just parade around in flashy clothes.

BTW, my Septa Mordane post is forthcoming later this Sunday.

I like this. I like this a lot :) I've always felt that private enterprise would be a suitable option for Sansa, allowing her to have a good life, but also an independent one. And yes, finally someone sees value in the Fingers!!

[Kittykatknits]

I'm not sure about the North being her ultimate destination, there might not even be a north to return to if the others destroy the wall. While I don't agree with those who try to paint her as more Tully than Stark, I don't think she would have a place in Winterfell. As Lyanna pointed out she's 3rd in line (4th if Robb's will names Jon and is heeded), I don't see Bran or Rickon dying/losing their claim by the end of it and so I don't think she'd have any purpose in Winterfell.

She's third or fourth in line yes, but her two brothers are still minors. She could rule as Regent until they come of age, just as Cersei did. There is quite a bit of imagery regarding Sansa and WF/the North. She draws strength withi herself when remids herself that she is a Stark, while building the snow castle she thinks that she is stronger within the walls of WF, and she hears the wolves while going down the mountain. This does not mean that she will spend the rest of her life at WF but she has a role to play there. I don't think she will be the one to reclaim it, that's going to be taken care of for her. I think it is a very big possibility that she will rebuild it. Rickon and Bran would be to young.

Why would she lose her agency in this position? She would have no patriarchial figure in her life at all actually. There would be no one to force her to marry.

I'm not so sure how much agency QoT really has at the moment. She does have some power, but Mace is ultimately the one in charge, as you said it was Mace who wanted Marg to be queen, not QoT and QoT had no power to change that, how is it then that QoT has agency? She has more power than most true but she is still held under the same constraints that Sansa would in Winterfell and she doesn't have true freedom in the way a man could in her position. If Sansa was regent for Rickon it wouldn't be for very long. You can't be regent for life, as soon as Rickon became of age, Sansa would lose most of her power and agency.

Mace thinks he is in charge. We got many hints that Olenna directs many of his actions. Olenna acts on behalf of her house, to further and protect it's interests. I'm not saying that Sansa will assume the exact same role, I'm saying that is a model for how she would exercise her personal power. If she is Regent in WF, she'd have every bit of authority to do as she is needed. We also need to remember that there is a war still going on and that it is likely to continue. I think it is very possible that Sansa could goven in the same way that the Mormont women, Lady Dustin, or Alys Karstark are. Each is the head of the family and do not the marriage to make that happen. I loved Alys' line about her husband, "let him be afraid". I think Sansa eventually becoming a Lady in her own right is a very possible scenario for her.

A bit of a personal post, but probably interesting for the unconvinced of the potential choices Sansa might make after meeting the women we're discussing -

That's interesting Lady Lea as I had a very opposite upbringing in this regard so always thought her having sex or being in a relationship outside of marriage as very possible. My mom put both me and my sister on the pill at sixteen because she wanted us to be in control rather than caught in a moment or dependent on someone, my parents talked quite openly with me about when I would choose to be sexually active, and I remember my dad having conversations with me about having "lovers" when I grew older. Yep, that was plural and the word husband never came up. Otherwise, they are pretty conservative people who wanted to be open and straightforward with me when it came to sex. I didn't know just how in the minority I was in this until I got older.

[brashcandy]

Interestingly, Sansa's arc has been full of women who are after sexual and erotic agency and how their view of that has clashed with Sansa's preconceived notions she had about "marriage = love and that's the end of it" she had when she left Winterfell.

Cersei, Kella, Lysa, Mya, Myranda, QoT/Margaery, Ellaria Sand and even her own mother (if we count the LF story). I don't think anyone else has had the same amount of variety of women who are, or were, after this same thing.

I wonder if Kella is the first time Sansa has encountered a woman who has lots of bastards and honestly doesn't care who the father is. It reflects Tyrion's comment to Jon about who his mother is "Some woman, no doubt". In this case that same answer can be made to LF's question of who the father is: "Some man" (and it doesn't matter much who it is). Even better, Kella seems perfectly happy with this and we even see LF rather approve of it (I keep telling you he is a rather bad patriarch, with "bad" in a good sense. ;) )

Yes, he is a bad patriarch :) The more children Kella has means more of LF's resources going to feed and clothe them, but he's so contemptuous of the Fingers that he doesn't really care. I wonder if this attitude is the reason why he doesn't try to constrain Kella's activities rather than him being sexually openminded? A bit of let her have fun because ultimately I don't give a shit about the Fingers, its people or my holdings out there.

[Lady Lea]

I'm not sure about the North being her ultimate destination, there might not even be a north to return to if the others destroy the wall. While I don't agree with those who try to paint her as more Tully than Stark, I don't think she would have a place in Winterfell. As Lyanna pointed out she's 3rd in line (4th if Robb's will names Jon and is heeded), I don't see Bran or Rickon dying/losing their claim by the end of it and so I don't think she'd have any purpose in Winterfell.

If Jon was legitimised by Robb, Sansa would still come before him in line. Unless she was disinherited, then she wouldn't be in line at all. BTW guys, what do you think Sansa's (and LF's) reaction will be if Sansa was in fact disinherited?

That's interesting Lady Lea as I had a very opposite upbringing in this regard so always thought her having sex or being in a relationship outside of marriage as very possible. My mom put both me and my sister on the pill at sixteen because she wanted us to be in control rather than caught in a moment or dependent on someone, my parents talked quite openly with me about when I would choose to be sexually active, and I remember my dad having conversations with me about having "lovers" when I grew older. Yep, that was plural and the word husband never came up. Otherwise, they are pretty conservative people who wanted to be open and straightforward with me when it came to sex. I didn't know just how in the minority I was in this until I got older.

Aw, jelly! My parents never allowed me to go on the pill. Only when I was 20 and because my dermatologist said I had to, and they were *not* happy.

[Lyanna Stark]

Regarding the ending and whether Jon, Sansa, Arya and Bran (and perhaps even Theon) who have been gone from Winterfell for so long and will probably have to work together to restore it, will end up staying at Winterfell we can always look at LOTR and the Scouring of the Shire, which is very likely an inspirational event for the Sacking of Winterfell. We know that GRRM himself has said that he is planning on a bittersweet ending and LOTR's ending is 100% that. What does the hero Frodo think of the price of victory?

Two quotes come to mind:

“There is no real going back. Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?”

Gandalf did not answer.

Once you have been marked by the world outside, you cannot go back and pretend that nothing happened. It is simply not possible. Some wounds and some marks run too deep. You can try and salvage and rebuild, but what is lost is lost forever.

And perhaps the penultimate comment, and why LOTR's ending is so amazingly bittersweet (I personally find it amazing):

I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them.

I am almost convinced this will be the case for both Sansa and Arya. Winterfell is their home, and they will have to help in reclaiming it and rebuilding it, but will they find it the home they are longing for? I don't think so. Too much has happened to them for it to remain unchanged in that way. I can only see them returning to Winterfell temporarily to set out on their own once again afterwards.

[Mortal Engines]

She's third or fourth in line yes, but her two brothers are still minors. She could rule as Regent until they come of age, just as Cersei did. There is quite a bit of imagery regarding Sansa and WF/the North. She draws strength withi herself when remids herself that she is a Stark, while building the snow castle she thinks that she is stronger within the walls of WF, and she hears the wolves while going down the mountain. This does not mean that she will spend the rest of her life at WF but she has a role to play there. I don't think she will be the one to reclaim it, that's going to be taken care of for her. I think it is a very big possibility that she will rebuild it. Rickon and Bran would be to young.

I agree with the imagery, but I've always taken this as her helping rebuild WF or simply showing that she is still a Stark at heart not matter what LF tries to paint her as (I think the latter is more likely). I wouldn't be surprised if she does play a role in WF but I would also not be surprised if she never returned. I just don't see her playing regent like Cersei (who is turning out to be Sansa's polar opposite) she has seen what this sort of position entails and what it can do to someone via Cersei, why would she want it for herself? Once her brothers came of age she would have no use anymore either.

Why would she lose her agency in this position? She would have no patriarchial figure in her life at all actually. There would be no one to force her to marry.

Because she wouldn't just be left alone. Name me one character who remained a High-born lady, was in any sort of position in power and wasn't dictated to marry someone? Even QoT was pushed to marry someone, even if in the end she chooses to marry someone she loved/could control it was only because that person was of suitable position. QoT didn't really have that much power, she choose who she married but that person still had to conform to what the men around her wanted him to be in terms of power and status. The same would be for Sansa. Should she remain in WF as a high-born lady, someone would eventually dictate her to marry someone. This could either be her brothers once they're older or more likely one of their advisers. I couldn't see her simply being left to her own devices.

EDIT: A third point is that Sansa is female, the North for all their loyalty aren't likely to want a female to be Regent, Stark blood or no there would still be resistance to it. The North isn't Dorne quite yet.

Mace thinks he is in charge. We got many hints that Olenna directs many of his actions. Olenna acts on behalf of her house, to further and protect it's interests.

I don't disagree, but this only works because Mace himself is a bit of an idiot. If he was semi-competent there is no way that the QoT would exercise as much power as she does. You said it yourself, Mace wanted Margaery to become Queen and there was nothing QoT could do to change that, so when it came down to it, Mace was still in charge. So how much agency does she really have? Would this really work for Sansa in WF? I doubt it.

I'm not saying that Sansa will assume the exact same role, I'm saying that is a model for how she would exercise her personal power. If she is Regent in WF, she'd have every bit of authority to do as she is needed. We also need to remember that there is a war still going on and that it is likely to continue. I think it is very possible that Sansa could goven in the same way that the Mormont women, Lady Dustin, or Alys Karstark are. Each is the head of the family and do not the marriage to make that happen. I loved Alys' line about her husband, "let him be afraid". I think Sansa eventually becoming a Lady in her own right is a very possible scenario for her.

Again I doubt it, one isn't simply Regent 1) because they want to be 2) because they think they have the right. While Sansa is Bran and Rickon's sister, unless they specify they want her as Regent, then people like Manderly and co would have to agree to it. If they did, they would still hold power over her as likely advisors to Bran and Rickon, there is no way that 16 year old Sansa would simply be allowed to run WF and be left alone. It just wouldn't happen. For one she would be too young (she's no Cersei, who is older) and for two the Starks would owe themselves remaining in Winterfell to their bannermen, people like Manderly, which means that the Manderlys would be given some power in WF and I doubt they would simply allow Sansa to do as she likes or remain unmarried. They would likely use her, just like most women in ASOIAF are used.

We shall see - only the author knows for sure!

I could live with Sansa being a lady; I would :crying: :crying: :crying: if she were to lead a life of childless celibacy at the end. I'd be happy to hav her alive, but it would be beyond just "bittersweet" - really really sad - if Sansa didn't get the family she wants.

I don't disagree that it would be sad and I personally don't like it, but I'm just say that it could likely happen.

Even if she were to remain Alayne and living quietly at the Fingers, or in an arranged marriage - as long as it was happy - or heck, deciding to love Tyrion! - "no husband, no kids, no sex, not ever" would be heartbreaking. Just my perspective. :) (Not that every woman needs a husband or kids - I think Arya, and perhaps Meera Reed, would be happy that way. Not Sansa. She is a Mother archetype, not a Maid.)

The interesting thing is, we slowly see Sansa becoming detached from her original (somewhat naive) wants in life, to have a family, to be a lady. She doesn't seem to particularly want these things anymore even though she has been close to having them several times, the way she has seen these things destroy others (especially Cersei) may have turned her off the prospect. I could see the opposite happen to Arya (though she's a bit young atm), she could come to want things she never did originally (like kids and a family) and the two would have the ultimate role reversal.

It’s just a crackpot theory though.

[Mortal Engines]

If Jon was legitimised by Robb, Sansa would still come before him in line. Unless she was disinherited, then she wouldn't be in line at all. BTW guys, what do you think Sansa's (and LF's) reaction will be if Sansa was in fact disinherited?

I might be wrong but didn't Robb name him heir? In that case wouldn't he be first in line? Thus Sansa would be 4th, which is what I meant. Otherwise obviously if he was only legitimised then Sansa would be 3rd.

As for the reaction, I think neither would care that much. LF's plan to put Sansa in charge of Winterfell seems like a hollow promise and Sansa never showed any desire to rule Winterfell - only to return. She might even be relieved because it means no one would try to use her for her claim anymore.

Snip

I am almost convinced this will be the case for both Sansa and Arya. Winterfell is their home, and they will have to help in reclaiming it and rebuild it, but will they find it the home they are longing for? I don't think so. Too much has happened to them for it to remained unchanged in any way. I can only see them returning to Winterfell temporarily to set out on their own once again afterwards.

I definitely agree, the only ones I could see returning to WF to lead and stay are Rickon and Jon. Maybe Bran but I think it's far more likely he'll remain with Bloodraven or in solitude, his magic is slowly making him unsuitable to remain in normal society.

[Lyanna Stark]

Because she wouldn't just be left alone. Name me one character who remained a High-born lady, was in any sort of position in power and wasn't dictated to marry someone?

The QoT was young and unmarried though when she avoided the Targaryen Prince and picked Luthor Tyrell.

As examples, we have Anya Waynwood, Lysa as Lady Protector of the Vale, Cersei as Queen Regent (even if Tywin doesn't like it), Lady Hornwood (who was forced into marrying Ramsay by way of violence and not by a patriarch). Nobody tried to force Cat to remarry once Ned had died either.

The thing is, Sansa wouldn't have any male relative that could force her into something. She needs an acting patriarch, and unless you think Jon Snow, the Blackfish or Edmure Tully would step in, she is completely without.

The interesting thing is, we slowly see Sansa becoming detached from her original (somewhat naive) wants in life, to have a family, to be a lady.

Ah but she wanted to be a lady and a Queen. She wanted to be married to a pretty prince. The family thing she still holds to later with Willas but she's becoming so disillusioned with marriage that I think she has a hard time picturing herself ever having a family, even if she wanted sons named after her brothers and a daughter who looked like Arya (so she may have called her Arya horse face, but I think it's clear Sansa misses her sister despite this). However, the wishes for being loved for herself and a family seem to be detached from the "queen" and marrying the prince dreams.

[Lady Lea]

I might be wrong but didn't Robb name him heir? In that case wouldn't he be first in line? Thus Sansa would be 4th, which is what I meant. Otherwise obviously if he was only legitimised then Sansa would be 3rd.

Even legitimised bastards go in the end of the sucession line, after even daughters. Even if the bastard in question is older than the trueborn sons. As to Robb naming him heir, it was by legitimizing him. The catch was that, since Robb thought everyone else to be dead (and disinherited Sansa, probably), that would make him heir.

As for the reaction, I think neither would care that much. LF's plan to put Sansa in charge of Winterfell seems like a hollow promise and Sansa never showed any desire to rule Winterfell - only to return. She might even be relieved because it means no one would try to use her for her claim anymore.

Ah yes, that's interesting. You really think LF is lying about Winterfell? That makes sense.

[Mortal Engines]

The QoT was young and unmarried though when she avoided the Targaryen Prince and picked Luthor Tyrell.

Right, but the point is that she was still forced to marry SOMEONE. She avoided the Targ and chose Luthor but she didn't have the choice of not marrying at all. That's my point, she didn't have full agency, she still had to marry someone. She was simply lucky that a good alternative was available.

As examples, we have Anya Waynwood, Lysa as Lady Protector of the Vale, Cersei as Queen Regent (even if Tywin doesn't like it), Lady Hornwood (who was forced into marrying Ramsay by way of violence and not by a patriarch). Nobody tried to force Cat to remarry once Ned had died either.

But you're missing the important point. All the women you've mentioned have already been forced to marry. They already lost their agency in terms of marriage and though they gained it afterwards, it was only once their husbands had died. My point was Sansa would ultimately be forced to marry someone from another noble family just like all the women you mention have. I'm not saying its impossible for a woman to have agency in Westeros, I'm saying it's impossible for a young girl from a highborn family to be allowed to choose who she marries and be left alone in that regard.

The only person who comes close to this is Arainne Martell but Dorne is another story.

The thing is, Sansa wouldn't have any male relative that could force her into something. She needs an acting patriarch, and unless you think Jon Snow, the Blackfish or Edmure Tully would step in, she is completely without.

She's without it at the moment, but she certainly wouldn't be once she returned to WF. Whether it would be Blackfish, Jon or Manderly (or Umber or any number of noblemen who would become advisers to the Starks) SOMEONE would take that role, it would be strange if no one did and would make WF weak.

Ah but she wanted to be a lady and a Queen. She wanted to be married to a pretty prince. The family thing she still holds to later with Willas but she's becoming so disillusioned with marriage that I think she has a hard time picturing herself ever having a family, even if she wanted sons named after her brothers and a daughter who looked like Arya (so she may have called her Arya horse face, but I think it's clear Sansa misses her sister despite this). However, the wishes for being loved for herself and a family seem to be detached from the "queen" and marrying the prince dreams.

Hmm, I'll think I'll give you this one. I could argue it but I think you're right.

Even legitimised bastards go in the end of the sucession line, after even daughters. Even if the bastard in question is older than the trueborn sons. As to Robb naming him heir, it was by legitimizing him. The catch was that, since Robb thought everyone else to be dead (and disinherited Sansa, probably), that would make him heir.

Hmm I guess that makes sense. We'll see in time I guess.

Ah yes, that's interesting. You really think LF is lying about Winterfell? That makes sense.

Yes, I really think he was lying about WF. Unless he plans on playing the reaaaallllllyy long game of waiting till Winter is over there is no way in the Seven Hells he could march an army on WF in winter. So yes, he was lying, he couldn't get Sansa to WF even if he wanted to in winter, it's likely he just said that it was his plan in order to get Sansa more on his side and get her to trust him more.

[brashcandy]

Ah yes, that's interesting. You really think LF is lying about Winterfell? That makes sense.

Yeah, I think he's lying for sure. It's a suicide mission to attempt a march to the Northright now, and LF doesn't give a rat's ass about Winterfell. He needs to keep Sansa under his control though, and the best way to do so is to promise her this fairytale ending of being married, reclaiming her identity and her home.

[Lyanna Stark]

She's without it at the moment, but she certainly wouldn't be once she returned to WF. Whether it would be Blackfish, Jon or Manderly (or Umber or any number of noblemen who would become advisers to the Starks) SOMEONE would take that role, it would be strange if no one did and would make WF weak.

Well, who? :)

The Blackfish? Who was exiled from Riverrun for 20 years because he refused an arranged marriage? And who is a Tully, not a Stark. Jon? Why would he force Sansa to marry someone? Besides, his status as a Stark may be problematic since he is a Snow now and may end up a Targaryen (not to mention that he is a bit..well on the dead side ;) ). I really don't think Jon would like to do that to his sister, nor that Sansa would agree, and as she states in ASOS, if the woman says no, not even the High Septon can marry them against her will (barring the use of force/threat of force as Sansa herself was submitted to and I doubt either Jon nor the Blackfish would do that).

The Umbers and the Manderlys have no dominion over Sansa. Once she comes of age, they cannot rightly take charge of her.

Hence, she is on her own in that regard. And it's allegedly not the first time this has happened to the Starks either, judging by the next Dunk and Egg novella. :)

Yeah, I think he's lying for sure. It's a suicide mission to attempt a march to the Northright now, and LF doesn't give a rat's ass about Winterfell. He needs to keep Sansa under his control though, and the best way to do so is to promise her this fairytale ending of being married, reclaiming her identity and her home.

Oh definitely. LF doesn't give one squirt of piss for Winterfell, he is only using it as bait for Sansa to remain pliant. It's the equivalent of Lyn Corbray's boys and gold.

Even legitimised bastards go in the end of the sucession line, after even daughters. Even if the bastard in question is older than the trueborn sons. As to Robb naming him heir, it was by legitimizing him. The catch was that, since Robb thought everyone else to be dead (and disinherited Sansa, probably), that would make him heir.

I think this is debatable. GRRM has stated himself that it is not clear cut with the inheritance. Generally, it is the one with the more power to force the issue that will get what they are after. And as you state, if Jon is made heir and Sansa disinherited, it doesn't matter one way or the other.

[Grail King]

I see what you're getting at here... does anybody remember when it first appears in the series? Does it replace Joff's necklace? If so then that would fit with your theory QueenSansaStark and also not be in contradiction with Sansa's eventual becoming queen...

I got info from here:

http://asoiafunivers...of-sansa-starks

Then I followed up with much words on the Dragonfly that I put here.

http://asoiaf.wester...rite-character/

And this thread is at lightspeed.

[Lady Lea]

I think this is debatable. GRRM has stated himself that it is not clear cut with the inheritance. Generally, it is the one with the more power to force the issue that will get what they are after. And as you state, if Jon is made heir and Sansa disinherited, it doesn't matter one way or the other.

It's what the wiki says. Of course, it wouldn't be clear cut if you had someone like Black Walder in the family, or Ramsay Bolton, but Jon wouldn't try to cockblock Sansa if she wasn't disinherited, and definitely not Arya.

[Winter's Knight]

Type..slower..people.

Also, can we have a team name? Sansites maybe or Sansians?

[Mortal Engines]

Well, who? :)

The Blackfish? Who was exiled from Riverrun for 20 years because he refused an arranged marriage? And who is a Tully, not a Stark. Jon? Why would he force Sansa to marry someone? Besides, his status as a Stark may be problematic since he is a Snow now and may end up a Targaryen (not to mention that he is a bit..well on the dead side ;) ). I really don't think Jon would like to do that to his sister, nor that Sansa would agree, and as she states in ASOS, if the woman says no, not even the High Septon can marry them against her will (barring the use of force/threat of force as Sansa herself was submitted to and I doubt either Jon nor the Blackfish would do that).

The Umbers and the Manderlys have no dominion over Sansa. Once she comes of age, they cannot rightly take charge of her.

Of course the Umbers and Manderlys have some power over what happens in WF. How does one get power in the first place? Their subjects have to bestow it upon them. If your bannerman don't support you or agree with what you're doing, then you don't have a lick of power. Why do you think so many people in Westeros attempt to appease and creating links with their bannermen? To create ways to control them. Without your bannermen you are nothing. Like I said the North is no Dorne, I doubt a young girl like Sansa would be allowed to simply rule WF as she pleases simply because she's a Stark. They'd respect her for sure, but they would still expect her to eventually marry just like every other lady in Westeros.

Case-point: Look what happened to 'Arya' aka Jeyne Poole.

Of course woman can always say no, but name one woman in Westeros who has ever actually done that? As with most arranged marriages, if a participant is unwilling they are normally coerced into accepting it in one way.

When it comes down to it I doubt Sansa would put herself in a position to be used like this, as such she wouldn't attempt to rule WF.

Hence, she is on her own in that regard. And it's allegedly not the first time this has happened to the Starks either, judging by the next Dunk and Egg novella. :)

Not sure what you mean by the Dunk and Egg book? I know the Starks will be mentioned but not sure how it links to this situation.

[Mladen]

I`ve gone for an hour and this is what I find...I can`t catch up with you...