From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

[Valkyrja]

Also Lyanna, doesn't LF get his lordship due to his services with arranging the Tyrell-Lannister alliance? Who knows how it would have played out had he been able to marry Sansa back in AGOT.

Wasn't the reason Cersei refused his request to marry Sansa in part because he was too 'low born'? Or am I misremembering? Either way, it makes his rise to power all the more creepy......to think that in part he was doing this so he could eventually marry Sansa (and just assuming that he'd eventually be able to steal her or 'persuade' her to marry him.....ugh.)

[Kobayashi Maru]

Wasn't the reason Cersei refused his request to marry Sansa in part because he was too 'low born'? Or am I misremembering? Either way, it makes his rise to power all the more creepy......to think that in part he was doing this so he could eventually marry Sansa (and just assuming that he'd eventually be able to steal her or 'persuade' her to marry him.....ugh.)

Or he was trying to marry her at that time so he could rise to power.

[Lyanna Stark]

Also Lyanna, doesn't LF get his lordship due to his services with arranging the Tyrell-Lannister alliance? Who knows how it would have played out had he been able to marry Sansa back in AGOT.

Tywin gave it to LF for securing the marriage pact between the Lannisters and the Tyrells yeah. I remember Tyrion being like "WTF?" about it, and it seems at the time he was the only one to see parts of how much it had benefited LF. Sansa points out that it's an empty honour, but that was before she realised that it was about status and not land/hard power.

Wasn't the reason Cersei refused his request to marry Sansa in part because he was too 'low born'? Or am I misremembering? Either way, it makes his rise to power all the more creepy......to think that in part he was doing this so he could eventually marry Sansa (and just assuming that he'd eventually be able to steal her or 'persuade' her to marry him.....ugh.)

Yes, Cersei refused him for being too lowborn. He was also probably aiming at getting Sansa ever since he met her, which means poor Lysa's days were always numbered. :(

[brashcandy]

Wasn't the reason Cersei refused his request to marry Sansa in part because he was too 'low born'? Or am I misremembering? Either way, it makes his rise to power all the more creepy......to think that in part he was doing this so he could eventually marry Sansa (and just assuming that he'd eventually be able to steal her or 'persuade' her to marry him.....ugh.)

Yup, she specifically says low born. Yeah, this is my point really. I tend to see everything LF does after meeting Sansa as relating to his obsession with claiming her. We have this image of LF playing the game ruthlessly throughout the series leading to his eventual rise and marriage to Lysa Tully; but the man wanted to marry Sansa back in AGOT which means that he wasn't so gung ho on using Lysa as a means to power after he discovered Cat's daughter.

[Kobayashi Maru]

It is clear he wants Sansa but he also wants power. I believe part of his plan to get even with...I guess Westeros is to become powerful and to take what he has been denied. I am not sure his first offer to marry Sansa was based on his "love" for the girl alone and I believe that he wanted her claim as well.This would give him power AND the girl.

Poor Lysa never had the chance.

[Tagganaro]

It's interesting as well that in ACOK Sansa realises it is an empty honour, which is correct, but she doesn't understand the further implications of it. Which, to be fair, neither Tywin nor Cersei did, and Tyrion only suspected. A lot of people underestimate LF for his lack of hard power, but he does his best to turn this disadvantage into an advantage, i.e. he knows his lack of hard power makes people underestimate him, which is great. They seem to look upon him as a cunning businessman with a knack for finding out information, but really LF is far more than that.

Also what brash said above. LF's perving is extremely creepy and it's really doubtful that he'd done a Tyrion and waited with consummating the marriage.

It was also hidden away cleverly in a Cersei chapter in ADWD that LF even wanted to marry her initially, gradually revealing just what an utter creep he is.

1. That scene reproduced where LF first meets Sansa is one of the creepiest things I've ever read lol. I am glad I forgot about that scene. I can't even imagine the visual on that- Shouldn't Septa Mordane be more concerned about how that conversation was going?

Anyway, I love this observation about LF. Turning a weakness into a strength in certain ways. We see this a lot in the books, and I actually think it pertains to Sansa as well. Best example in my mind is recently with Wyman Manderley in ADWD, using his fatness and perceived cravenness to his advantage. From a woman's perspective, I'd say it is made most clear with Brienne (men try to finish her off quickly and spend all their strength in furious attacks). But very present with Sansa as well, using perceived dumbness to her advantage, using her grief/religion to continuously go to the Godswood to meet with Dontos to plan her escape, and now as we talked about earlier probably using her Tullyness (?) to hide her Starkness from LF.

[Mladen]

Sansa is an idiot. She told Cersei about Ned's plans to send off the girls from KL. She got herself imprisoned and everything that's happened to her since is her own fault. Also, please recall that Arya points out the fact that Sansa never had much of a head for figures just in case you're looking for additional textual evidence of her cognitive deficiencies. She can't put 2 & 2 together in either the literal or figurative sense. The best she can hope to accomplish in her terrible meaningless life other than mucking up everything she touches is kill Littlefinger.

I am very much into appreciating everyone`s opinion, but yours is simply...stupid. You haven`t read the books, you may have just explored the wiki of ASOIAF, or just read couple of posts...If you can read, then be kind and move on, unless you really have something worthy to say. Also, this is the second time, we ask people to explain us their opinion. Unless you can`t give us an good analysis about Sansa`s so called stupidity, you are not welcome here...

[brashcandy]

New thread will be up in a few hours. xx

[Mladen]

But very present with Sansa as well, using perceived dumbness to her advantage, using her grief/religion to continuously go to the Godswood to meet with Dontos to plan her escape, and now as we talked about earlier probably using her Tullyness (?) to hide her Starkness from LF

I like this...LF has some issues to be resolved (psichological, I mean)...Sansa`s beauty is hiding her harsh and strong will, her behaviour hides her insubordinance known to Starks...Tully looks is just a mask for a very beutiful, but strong Stark...Sansa is more Lyanna, than Arya shall ever be...

@brash, you frightened me, I just thought you closed the thread during my writing...BTW, I become the LAnded knight, due to the many posts I left here...So thank you, girls...

[Caro99]

Congrats on becoming a landed knight, Ser Mladen!!

maybe it's pretty surreal to imagine clever LF loosing control or not grasping every single detail that's happening under him (we know that at least with sansa this isn't the case since he doesn't know how quickly she can warm up to people he seems below him like lothor maybe, or with thinking she would still be tempted with the handsome harry the heir sort of stereo-type).. but i beieve that before the books end he will meet his downfall and sansa may very well have something to do with it. i feel like he could fall under the same trap that Lysa did regarding him. kissing sansa where they could very well be seen or killing lysa earlier than he wanted are consequences of the effect sansa has on him (it's been believed that in sansa's last Feast chapter she can smell wine on his breath since he is starting too drink a little more than usual, so this too could be related to it) and so i wonder with all these recent talk of LF's long twisted plans for having sansa if on the day sansa lets him know that she won't have any more of it, he might not "lose it" and finish her off? or if he realizes she can turn against him politically or expose some of the things Lysa told her before she died, do you guys think Petyr would kill sansa and "sacrifice" his whole what-having-Cat-in-my-life-would've-been-like over his position in the game? i don't think he loves Sansa for herself, so is it possible??

[Kobayashi Maru]

I think he has it in him but whether he'll go trough with it depends on how the situation will develop in AWoW. I also do not believe Sansa is his only goal it would render him pretty pathetic villain after all that he did (started a war) to get his revenge...or whatever his end game is.I am still not sure what is his ultimate goal and if it's just to get a girl will be IMHO disappointing. I expect something much more devious from him.I also believe he is underestimating Sansa and that is his big mistake. He doesn't know she had some tutoring in KL (Cercei,Hound) about lying and telling the truth and his experience with Lysa (making her do whatever he wanted) and Catlyn (back in KL she did trust him) is clouding his judgement when it comes to Sansa.There are way too many variables he didn't take in to an account. Her compassion for one (even Cercei didn't see this) I guess If you don't have it yourself it's hard to notice it in other people.He takes for granted that as far as Sansa is concerned SR is pretty much all family she has left.I already said this somewhere but LF said at one point that even the smallest pawn has mind of their own and you must count on that.His downfall will be caused by him forgetting this when it comes to Sansa.

[Caro99]

I think he has it in him but whether he'll go trough with it depends on how the situation will develop in AWoW. I also do not believe Sansa is his only goal it would render him pretty pathetic villain after all that he did (started a war) to get his revenge...or whatever his end game is.I am still not sure what is his ultimate goal and if it's just to get a girl will be IMHO disappointing. I expect something much more devious from him.I also believe he is underestimating Sansa and that is his big mistake. He doesn't know she had some tutoring in KL (Cercei,Hound) about lying and telling the truth and his experience with Lysa (making her do whatever he wanted) and Catlyn (back in KL she did trust him) is clouding his judgement when it comes to Sansa.There are way too many variables he didn't take in to an account. Her compassion for one (even Cercei didn't see this) I guess If you don't have it yourself it's hard to notice it in other people.He takes for granted that as far as Sansa is concerned SR is pretty much all family she has left.I already said this somewhere but LF said at one point that even the smallest pawn has mind of their own and you must count on that.His downfall will be caused by him forgetting this when it comes to Sansa.

After creating a war, becoming the Lord of Harrenhal and the lord paramount of the riverlands and the Lord protector of the Eyrie (and whatever else George may give him next) it's true he is one of the most powerful pieces, and for sansa to bring about his downfall would be sweet since he would sort of fall under the pattern that Cersei, Tyrion, joff and other did when they oversaw Sansa's strength and that she was more than just a pretty face. i think that getting the girl isn't his ultimate motive as well since he sort of "has" sansa now but he is still trying to become even more powerful and her as well- whether she wants it or not. that's why i fear he would kill her off if he realizes she isn't willing to be "supportive..." as you said, he is a great villain, and wanting just the girl could be a a litttle bit out of character, but having the girl finish him off in the end (through others, maybe not directly her) might be better?? :dunno:

[Kobayashi Maru]

After creating a war, becoming the Lord of Harrenhal and the lord paramount of the riverlands and the Lord protector of the Eyrie (and whatever else George may give him next) it's true he is one of the most powerful pieces, and for sansa to bring about his downfall would be sweet since he would sort of fall under the pattern that Cersei, Tyrion, joff and other did when they oversaw Sansa's strength and that she was more than just a pretty face. i think that getting the girl isn't his ultimate motive as well since he sort of "has" sansa now but he is still trying to become even more powerful and her as well- whether she wants it or not. that's why i fear he would kill her off if he realizes she isn't willing to be "supportive..." as you said, he is a great villain, and wanting just the girl could be a a litttle bit out of character, but having the girl finish him off in the end (through others, maybe not directly her) might be better?? :dunno:

The only thing that is against the idea if Sansa being LF downfall is GRRM and his tendency to take away revenge from his characters.There are like 1% of them who actually get the revenge they seek (Walder Frey)or don't know they just had it (I'm not sure if Jon was aware of Slynt's involvement or at least the extend of his involvement in the death of his father) and the rest are just denied the satisfaction.I myself would prefer him to be taken down by his beloved Cat or UnCat in this case.

Also Sansa's qualities are beautifully described and this can't be just the coincidence,they will be either her biggest strength and salvation or her downfall ( I hope for first to be true )

[Kittykatknits]

The only thing that is against the idea if Sansa being LF downfall is GRRM and his tendency to take away revenge from his characters.There are like 1% of them who actually get the revenge they seek (Walder Frey)or don't know they just had it (I'm not sure if Jon was aware of Slynt's involvement or at least the extend of his involvement in the death of his father) and the rest are just denied the satisfaction.I myself would prefer him to be taken down by his beloved Cat or UnCat in this case.

Also Sansa's qualities are beautifully described and this can't be just the coincidence,they will be either her biggest strength and salvation or her downfall ( I hope for first to be true )

I think Sansa can be his downfall without it being a form of revenge. Martin has had a consistent message on the futility of revenge in these books. showing that through the Freys, Dany, Sandor, Tyrion, and more. I also don't think Sansa is the vengeance type. She may raise her kids not to love Lannisters (I cant say I blame her!) but she isn't going on a blood lust campaign to kill them all either. I can see her stealing away Ser Sweetrobin from underneath LF's control or undermining his power within the Vale. I have a strong feeling that Lothur is going to switch his allegiance to her at some point and that will play a significant role too. Earlier in this thread, Mladen said that Sansa will defeat LF her weapons which are courtesy, empathy, compassion, and flattery. LF won't recognize those as weapons and will not see it coming. I really like that.

And Mladen, congratulations on being a Landed Knight. This place can get addictive pretty quickly, huh?

Looking forward to the new thread. I'm sure we will fill that one pretty quickly too. :)

[Lyanna Stark]

I think Sansa can be his downfall without it being a form of revenge. Martin has had a consistent message on the futility of revenge in these books.

Absolutely.

And Littlefinger is teaching her "clean hands" so she knows she shouldn't move against him directly, but indirectly. Intermediates FTW, you might say.

[1234567]

In terms of "clean hands", it may be that Sansa does not use the hairnet, but if she did, it would be suspicious if she ever became Sansa again, due to the manner in which Joff died. Arranging for LF to be caught trying to poison SR however would be clever and where she could use the poison in her hairnet as proof if she planted it on LF or with his possessions.

.