Prophecy: Sansa Kills Littlefinger

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

From the time she left KL up to the time she's with the Hound she's been at the mercy of others with very little say over her fate.

There is some truth to that, but to say she has been entirely at the mercy of others and has not taken control over her life is inaccurate. How did she escape Harrenhal? That was all Arya. Who planned Weasel Soup? Arya. Who tickled the Tickler? Arya. Who bullied the bully Joff? Arya. Who made innumerable attempts to leave KL and kept herself alive when those attempts were thwarted? Arya. Who secured passage across the Narrow Sea, searched out the Faceless Men, discarded all of her worldly possessions except Needle, killed a NW deserter and warged into a cat and bitch-slapped the Kindly Man? Arya, Arya, Arya, Arya, Arya. Yea, a lot of what has happened to her has been against her will, but she has been VERY active.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Hasn't done significant things? What would you call surviving her captivity, trying to get her father's life spared, saving Dontos' life, acting as the catalyst for Sandor's transformation, calming the women during the Blackwater battle, rebelling against the social conditioning that women should be dutiful to their husbands in all areas etc etc. These are very very significant things in my book, but I suppose too many people are invested in seeing Sansa as a helpless victim with no voice or will power.

Huh? When has Arya been making her own choices and taking control of her own life? From the time she left KL up to the time she's with the Hound she's been at the mercy of others with very little say over her fate. Jaqen's coin allows her to escape Westeros, but it's becoming clear that she's ended up in a very similar exploitative situation to Sansa's.

1. Seeing Sansa as boring is an opinion, not a fact. I find her endlessly fascinating and the 13 PTP threads would attest that I'm not alone in that estimation.

2. Waiting for Sansa to do something "big" is all well and good, but ultimately it's missing the true significance of her arc. It's all about Sansa achieving agency and autonomy, and whether she does that in a "small" or "big" way is all that's important to me.

you didn't understand I was talking like some others who can't appreciate Sansa? I thought I made myself quite clear when I said that she's my favourite. (I wouldn't call myself Lady Sansa Stark if I thought her to be the 12-year-old boring girl she is according to some people, right?) No need to defend her, I agree with everything you said.

plus, when I said 'big things' I meant really, big things within the Game of Thrones, not the things she did in King's Landing. Killing Littlefinger and be a masterplayer, for example.

[Grail King]

He's already obsessed with her.

As much as I would love to see Sansa be the one to take down LF, I'm curious as to why it would signify her redemption. What exactly does she need to be redeemed for?

Nothing

[Lady Arianne Martell]

The only thing Sansa did wrong was tell on her father.

Now.

She could not have had ANY clues on the consequences of her actions; as far as she knew, the Queen was sweet, Joff was her lovely prince, and everything was fine. Ned gave her no clues of the Game or anything....

[brashcandy]

edit

[Grail King]

For her crappy attitude and being such a boring, passive character. Sansapologists always use the same excuse "what would you have her do? shoot lightning bolts out of her arse?" Actually, yes I would. When reading fiction, your main character(s) should not be passive for five flaming books!........Or "She's a 12 year old girl. How many 12 year old girls do you know that would blah blah blah?" None! I don't know any. But I don't want to read about 12 year old girls that I know. I want to read about characters kicking ass and taking names. I know it's unrealistic and I don't care, and not because it is a fantasy setting either; but because if an author takes the time to write about a character at such great length, we can assume it is because (usually) that character is an extraordinary person. Sansa may be on her way, but she's not there yet.

I disagree with most you say more because it's an opinion and the opinion doesn't jive with the first four books, just 3/4 of the first where she is high nose and niaeve but she was brought up that way as the eldest daughter of a high lord in a rather secluded part of the country, after that youre getting a tour of the political shit storm called Kings Landing, and her slow growth to the one line I agree with, remember she just turned 13 near her time at the Eyrie she's not an adult for another 3 years.

[brashcandy]

There is some truth to that, but to say she has been entirely at the mercy of others and has not taken control over her life is inaccurate. How did she escape Harrenhal? That was all Arya. Who planned Weasel Soup? Arya. Who tickled the Tickler? Arya. Who bullied the bully Joff? Arya. Who made innumerable attempts to leave KL and kept herself alive when those attempts were thwarted? Arya. Who secured passage across the Narrow Sea, searched out the Faceless Men, discarded all of her worldly possessions except Needle, killed a NW deserter and warged into a cat and bitch-slapped the Kindly Man? Arya, Arya, Arya, Arya, Arya. Yea, a lot of what has happened to her has been against her will, but she has been VERY active.

Yes, just like Sansa did, Arya found certain avenues for self expression and agency. However, she has not been the determining force behind her experiences in the Riverlands. People like to act as though Sansa has simply been chilling out in KL under house arrest, whilst Arya has been out directing her life as she sees fit. That is not true. If Arya has been fighting with knives, Sansa has used her courtesy armour. Both are survival weapons, but Sansa's methods are constantly downplayed and denigrated. I'm.tired.of.it.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

What would you call surviving her captivity

Luck, and the Lannisters knowing they dare not kill her as long as Jaime is in captivity.

trying to get her father's life spared

Anyone who isn't a sociopath would do the same thing.

saving Dontos' life

That was cool. Very quick thinking. I also liked when later he tries to save her a severe beating by (I forget what he did exactly, hit her with a melon or something?). I like how those scenes mirror each other. Like Lucas would say "it's poetry/it rhymes."

calming the women during the Blackwater battle

very nice. showed some growth

rebelling against the social conditioning that women should be dutiful to their husbands in all areas

She thought Tyrion was gross (and he was a Lannister). She wasn't "rebelling" like some feminist super-hero.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

Ok , I love Sansa, but it's a HUGE stretch to say that she was rebelling social norms in her rejection of Tyrion.

She was rebelling:

1. Lannister control. He was a Lannister, she was fed up of being treated like crap by Lannisters, and showed her moment of defiance in her dislike of Lannisters. Had nothing to do with her being a woman or not.

2. As DH said earlier, he was repulsive to her, and for someone whose wanted people like Renly and Loras all her life, this was the biggest dissapointment, to be married to A. A non-traditionally attractive man B. A Lannister.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

The only thing Sansa did wrong was tell on her father.

Now.

She could not have had ANY clues on the consequences of her actions; as far as she knew, the Queen was sweet, Joff was her lovely prince, and everything was fine. Ned gave her no clues of the Game or anything....

That's the one thing I blame Ned for concerning Sansa; he didn't explain to her who the Queen really was, how the Game of Thrones was being played. Arya knew all of this, or at least, she was suspicious of everything and hated the Lannisters from the beginning. But, as it turned out, Ned was talking with Arya about it, explaining the 'Winter is coming' and that they had to survive. All the time, I was thinking; ''NED, you should have this conversation with Sansa, NOT with Arya!'' Sansa was raised the wrong way. I blame Ned and Catelyn for this just as much as I blame Septa Mordane.

[Jon Wolfwalker]

This thread started here (o)

(0) and ended up here.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

That's the one thing I blame Ned for concerning Sansa; he didn't explain to her who the Queen really was, how the Game of Thrones was being played. Arya knew all of this, or at least, she was suspicious of everything and hated the Lannisters from the beginning. But, as it turned out, Ned was talking with Arya about it, explaining the 'Winter is coming' and that they had to survive. All the time, I was thinking; ''NED, you should have this conversation with Sansa, NOT with Arya!'' Sansa was raised the wrong way. I blame Ned and Catelyn for this just as much as I blame Septa Mordane.

THANK YOU.

How could she have known, was she just supposed to assume and sneak, like some politician? She was to be a princess, there's no way she could have understood her role or consequences.

Btw, the quote on your siggy is my favorite scene in the books.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

This thread started here (o)

(0) and ended up here.

We're sorry. This seems to happen with every thread where Sansa is mentioned.

[brashcandy]

Ok , I love Sansa, but it's a HUGE stretch to say that she was rebelling social norms in her rejection of Tyrion.

She was rebelling:

1. Lannister control. He was a Lannister, she was fed up of being treated like crap by Lannisters, and showed her moment of defiance in her dislike of Lannisters. Had nothing to do with her being a woman or not.

2. As DH said earlier, he was repulsive to her, and for someone whose wanted people like Renly and Loras all her life, this was the biggest dissapointment, to be married to A. A non-traditionally attractive man B. A Lannister.

Sansa, and I'd argue most of the women in Westeros, have been thought to value their husbands no matter what. "All men are beautiful" is how Septa Mordane describes it. That is social conditioning to keep women tractable and obedient to their husbands. When Sansa cannot find Tyrion's beauty, and refuses to pretend (as many other women must have done) that she can, she's directly rebelling against those rules for women in marriages. She's sticking to her own feelings about Tyrion, or lack thereof, and doesn't relent even when he shows his displeasure. I think that was a pretty bold and significant act by a frightened girl who's been told all her life that women need to accept their husbands. She rejects Tyrion because he's a Lannister too, but in this moment we see a very personal rejection of Tyrion as husband.

[brashcandy]

Ok , I love Sansa, but it's a HUGE stretch to say that she was rebelling social norms in her rejection of Tyrion.

She was rebelling:

1. Lannister control. He was a Lannister, she was fed up of being treated like crap by Lannisters, and showed her moment of defiance in her dislike of Lannisters. Had nothing to do with her being a woman or not.

2. As DH said earlier, he was repulsive to her, and for someone whose wanted people like Renly and Loras all her life, this was the biggest dissapointment, to be married to A. A non-traditionally attractive man B. A Lannister.

Sansa didn't have a problem being married to a non-traditionally attractive man, hence why she agreed to marry Willas Tyrell. She had come to terms with his disability and was still willing to be a committed wife.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

Sansa, and I'd argue most of the women in Westeros, have been thought to value their husbands no matter what. "All men are beautiful" is how Septa Mordane describes it. That is social conditioning to keep women tractable and obedient to their husbands. When Sansa cannot find Tyrion's beauty, and refuses to pretend (as many other women must have done) that she can, she's directly rebelling against those rules for women in marriages. She's sticking to her own feelings about Tyrion, or lack thereof, and doesn't relent even when he shows his displeasure. I think that was a pretty bold and significant act by a frightened girl who's been told all her life that women need to accept their husbands. She rejects Tyrion because he's a Lannister too, but in this moment we see a very personal rejection of Tyrion as husband.

She's rebelling agains those norms, but not for the sake of being a Woman who is sick of repression, more for the sake of being Sansa who is sick of Lannister repression.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

Sansa didn't have a problem being married to a non-traditionally attractive man, hence why she agreed to marry Willas Tyrell. She had come to terms with his disability and was still willing to be a committed wife.

I misphrased, lets be honest, Tyrion is a HIDEOUS man. There's a difference between a cripple, and a dwarf without a nose...

[brashcandy]

She's rebelling agains those norms, but not for the sake of being a Woman who is sick of repression, more for the sake of being Sansa who is sick of Lannister repression.

Not true. It's definitely not just against Lannister repression. She's making a very definitive statement there concerning the "duty" that women have to find something attractive about their husbands.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

Not true. It's definitely not just against Lannister repression. She's making a very definitive statement there concerning the "duty" that women have to find something attractive about their husbands.

I don't see that...

I feel as though she wasn't thinking about husbands or wifes at all during those moments...

She was just repulsed by the idea she would have to end up marrying a man such as this...

I can't see her being all "How dare they insist I find something attractive about my husband?"

No where in her monologue does it mention her thinking about women's rights and etc.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Direhiker I am not sure you are fully understanding what Brashcandy ​means with Sansa's survival at King's Landing. You obviously do not get the beauty of Sansa's strength at all. She is talking about Sansa's mental state. Sansa has been beaten black and blue, sexually assaulted and emotionally as mentally abused, yet she is not broken from it. That is what makes Sansa remarkable. Her emotional and mental strength is in my opinion just as powerful as any sword fighters in Westeros. This is what bugs me when people say that Sansa isn't Stark enough. Her not being broken shows just how thick as ice she is. Her armor of courtesy is as strong as the walls of Winterfell.