Prophecy: Sansa Kills Littlefinger

[Lady Arianne Martell]

Direhiker I am not sure you are fully understanding what Brashcandy ​means with Sansa's survival at King's Landing. You obviously do not get the beauty of Sansa's strength at all. Sansa has been beaten black and blue, sexually assaulted and emotionally as mentally abused, yet she is not broken from it. That is what makes Sansa remarkable. Her emotional and mental strength is in my opinion just as powerful as any sword fighters in Westeros. This is what bugs me when people say that Sansa isn't Stark enough. Her not being broken shows just how thick as ice she is. Her armor of courtesy is as strong as the walls of Winterfell.

While I disagree with your wording, I totally agree with this. :agree:

[brashcandy]

I don't see that...

I feel as though she wasn't thinking about husbands or wifes at all during those moments...

She was just repulsed by the idea she would have to end up marrying a man such as this...

I can't see her being all "How dare they insist I find something attractive about my husband?"

No where in her monologue does it mention her thinking about women's rights and etc.

Just because she doesn't vocalise it as a radical thought doesn't mean it isn't meant for readers to recognize as such. She looks long and hard at Tyrion's body, remembers what Septa Mordane tells her, and still rejects him. That is a radical act in my estimation, one that patriarchy cannot afford to have happen too regularly, hence why women like Septa Mordane exist to teach what they do, and why women are kept powerless in their marriages.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

As Lyanna "20 thousand posts" Stark is wont to say, where is the textual evidence? The main defining characteristic of early Sansa is that she buys into all that Knights and Ladies fairytale stuff.

Well, she's raised that way. She was raised with songs, knights and that she would eventually marry a high Lord and live happily ever after. Don't blame Sansa here, blame Ned, Catelyn and Septa Mordane.

Arya didn't like and was opposed to it from the beginning.

[Lyanna Stark]

She thought Tyrion was gross (and he was a Lannister). She wasn't "rebelling" like some feminist super-hero.

This just goes to show that you have no idea. Out of all the female characters in the novels, Sansa and Dany are the ones who are seriously threatening the patriarchy by gaining agency, or attempting to. They are the only female characters to work against the patriarchs actively. Arianne and Asha are both allowed by their patriarch to be what they are, Cersei is a Widow, Arya and Brienne fighters, Melisandre has magic.

Honestly, very true.

There's no textual evidence for her having feminist or Women's rights or duty or any of that stuff ...

Yes there is for both Dany and Sansa.

Go read the Sansa reread and the Dany/Jon ADWD reread threads for lengthy textual evidence for both.

Not true. It's definitely not just against Lannister repression. She's making a very definitive statement there concerning the "duty" that women have to find something attractive about their husbands.

This resonates extremely strongly both in Sansa's and Dany's arcs, that they rebel against being married for duty. Considering that Dany may one day be Queen and completely overturn the extreme Targaryen inheritance system, these things are significant. Sansa rebels against her "duty" to submit just like Dany rebels against the sexist customs of the Ghiscari when she is about to marry Hizdahr.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

Just because she doesn't vocalise it as a radical thought doesn't mean it isn't meant for readers to recognize as such. She looks long and hard at Tyrion's body, remembers what Septa Mordane tells her, and still rejects him. That is a radical act in my estimation, one that patriarchy cannot afford to have happen too regularly, hence why women like Septa Mordane exist to teach what they do, and why women are kept powerless in their marriages.

She remembers what Septa Mordane tells her, yes, but I think that's more in a sense of guilt towards what she's about to do...

I really don't think it had to do with patriarchy, norms or anything. She rejected him because he was repulsive to her in name, look, and did not measure up to her dreams.

[Kittykatknits]

Not true. It's definitely not just against Lannister repression. She's making a very definitive statement there concerning the "duty" that women have to find something attractive about their husbands.

I agree with you completely. It seems this one scene is being focused on but she makes several statements and has quite a few thoughts that reinforce this idea. She's been exposed to bastard women and admires them, she's fine with the idea that her mother may have given her maidenhead to someone else beside her father (contrast that reaction to Arya's), she states she doesn't want to marry, she planned to refuse her aunt and stated that she wasn't a beggar.

Martin is using Sansa to make several statements about women's autonomy and control over their own destiny. Most get caught up on Sansa learning to play the game but that's really only a portion of what her character arc is all about.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

This just goes to show that you have no idea. Out of all the female characters in the novels, Sansa and Dany are the ones who are seriously threatening the patriarchy by gaining agency, or attempting to. They are the only female characters to work against the patriarchs actively. Arianne and Asha are both allowed by their patriarch to be what they are, Cersei is a Widow, Arya and Brienne fighters, Melisandre has magic.

Yes there is for both Dany and Sansa.

Go read the Sansa reread and the Dany/Jon ADWD reread threads for lengthy textual evidence for both.

For Dany I see it, but for Sansa, yes I browsed through the thread, For Sansa it's different.

I think she does her actions based off of her loves. I don't think she considers what she represents when she does things, more just how it would effect her, people around her, etc.

[Kittykatknits]

Just because she doesn't vocalise it as a radical thought doesn't mean it isn't meant for readers to recognize as such. She looks long and hard at Tyrion's body, remembers what Septa Mordane tells her, and still rejects him. That is a radical act in my estimation, one that patriarchy cannot afford to have happen too regularly, hence why women like Septa Mordane exist to teach what they do, and why women are kept powerless in their marriages.

She remembers what Septa Mordane tells her, yes, but I think that's more in a sense of guilt towards what she's about to do...

I really don't think it had to do with patriarchy, norms or anything. She rejected him because he was repulsive to her in name, look, and did not measure up to her dreams.

She does vocalize it. Brashcandy explained what she is doing as she looks at him and think of Septa Mordane. Then Sansa summons up her courage and says "And If I never want you?" She then notices that he looks like she'd slapped him.

That is a rejection of her Septa's teaching and a very clear statement to him that she will never accept him as her husband.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

I agree with you completely. It seems this one scene is being focused on but she makes several statements and has quite a few thoughts that reinforce this idea. She's been exposed to bastard women and admires them, she's fine with the idea that her mother may have given her maidenhead to someone else beside her father (contrast that reaction to Arya's), she states she doesn't want to marry, she planned to refuse her aunt and stated that she wasn't a beggar.

Martin is using Sansa to make several statements about women's autonomy and control over their own destiny. Most get caught up on Sansa learning to play the game but that's really only a portion of what her character arc is all about.

Yes MARTIN is using Sansa to represent things, but Sansa herself does not have these thoughts.

[brashcandy]

She remembers what Septa Mordane tells her, yes, but I think that's more in a sense of guilt towards what she's about to do...

I really don't think it had to do with patriarchy, norms or anything. She rejected him because he was repulsive to her in name, look, and did not measure up to her dreams.

I don't know what else to see except you have to see the bigger picture. Yes, he is repulsive to her, but women are not supposed to find their husbands repulsive, and if they do, they are either to deny it, or to find their beauty as Septa Mordane recommends. By refusing to do this, by telling Tyrion that she might "never" want him, Sansa is making a very radical break from the social conditioning of her society that patriarchy endorses to continue to perpetuate masculine power. She isn't going to be the obedient wife who sacrifices her happiness and sexual fulfilment on the altar of male excellence.

[brashcandy]

Yes MARTIN is using Sansa to represent things, but Sansa herself does not have these thoughts.

Of course she has the thoughts!! :) How else would Martin be using her to represent them?

[Lyanna Stark]

For Dany I see it, but for Sansa, yes I browsed through the thread, For Sansa it's different.

I think she does her actions based off of her loves. I don't think she considers what she represents when she does things, more just how it would effect her, people around her, etc.

Which means she has already started to see the larger picture of what her claim does, and what other women's claims do to them. She has also decided firmly that she doesn't want to marry again, perhaps ever. Which means she is going completely against the wishes of her current patriarch: Littlefinger. In fact, LF in many ways even fails as a patriarch since he is simultaneously giving her the tools to break free from it.

Even as early as with Sweetrobin, she was about to tell Lysa she did not want to marry him, even if she thought Lysa might banish her. She tried to avoid being married to Tyrion and to run off, but Cersei forced her under threat of violence.

As a sidenote: it's not "a thread" it's I think over ten threads now.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

Sansa has been beaten black and blue, sexually assaulted and emotionally as mentally abused, yet she is not broken from it.

Points for her. Her suffering will make me feel sorry for her, but it won't make me like her. You guys need to give up on getting people to like her. I don't hate her. But I don't really like her, either. You're not going to change that.

Her armor of courtesy is as strong as the walls of Winterfell.

Ugh. Every time I hear the words "armor" and "courtesy" in the same sentence, I just want to punch a direwolf.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

That's the one thing I blame Ned for concerning Sansa; he didn't explain to her who the Queen really was, how the Game of Thrones was being played. Arya knew all of this, or at least, she was suspicious of everything and hated the Lannisters from the beginning. But, as it turned out, Ned was talking with Arya about it, explaining the 'Winter is coming' and that they had to survive. All the time, I was thinking; ''NED, you should have this conversation with Sansa, NOT with Arya!'' Sansa was raised the wrong way. I blame Ned and Catelyn for this just as much as I blame Septa Mordane.

IAWTC. Catelyn and Ned screwed up badly in raising Sansa to be so naive. (Robb, as well, to a degree. If Jon Snow is ostensibly "Ned's bastard" and Robb was never the wiser, he might have learned that he didn't have to marry Jeyne Westerling (and PO his powerful allies, and ultimately get himself killed) just because he slept with her once. Robb: good battle commander, charismatic, TERRIBLE judge of character, TERRIBLE judge of the consequences of his actions. Robb was the Stark heir, Sansa the eldest daughter who would be expected to marry well; Ned and Catelyn did them both a disservice by not instilling some realism in both of them.)

On the subject of Sansa killing Littlefinger, which is something I've always been interested in:

- House Baelish coat of arms is the head of the Stone Titan of Braavos (adopted by Petyr's father)

- Arya's thought on reaching Braavos and seeing the Titan, that the Titan could easily step over the walls of Winterfell

- The figure looming over the sisters, a black giant with an empty space where his face would be, showing black blood. Who has been looming over the War of Five Kings behind the scenes? Who helped kick off that whole shitstorm? Who has arguably been more responsible for all the bloodshed than most of the obvious villains? Cheery, cheeky, well-dressed, Littlefinger. Whose coat of arms is the head of the Titan. And who is pretty soullessly sociopathic when you think about it.

Sansa has all the reason in the world to want to kill him once she connects the dots. And she's already been given a very powerful piece of information - what Lysa blabbed about before she went flying out the Moon Door. "I killed my husband because YOU told me to, Petyr!" At the moment, Sansa was so relieved to be alive that it didn't seem to sink in for the most part - and what little DID sink in was that Lysa killed her husband. But sooner or later (and I'm betting on sooner) Sansa is going to reflect on what she learned..."Hmm, Lysa poisoned her husband and that kicked off the whole shitstorm that killed my father and brother and ruined my family...because Petyr told her to...wait, WHAT?"

Then the "stupid little girl" in her "courtesy armor" is going to be as deadly as Dany with her dragons. She is going to bring Littlefinger down somehow - maybe not kill him, but perhaps strip him of all his power, expose him for who he is, and get him sent to the Wall or the Quiet Isle. Petyr will be the "stone giant" she kills (or disgraces), maybe after using him to get Winterfell back.

Direhiker I am not sure you are fully understanding what Brashcandy ​means with Sansa's survival at King's Landing. You obviously do not get the beauty of Sansa's strength at all. She is talking about Sansa's mental state. Sansa has been beaten black and blue, sexually assaulted and emotionally as mentally abused, yet she is not broken from it. That is what makes Sansa remarkable. Her emotional and mental strength is in my opinion just as powerful as any sword fighters in Westeros. This is what bugs me when people say that Sansa isn't Stark enough. Her not being broken shows just how thick as ice she is. Her armor of courtesy is as strong as the walls of Winterfell.

:agree:

Sansa's courtesy armor is as formidable a weapon as Needle. She sticks 'em with the pointy end of her courtesy, I like to think. :) I believe she will be the Stark to be reckoned with. Her character arc show so much terrific development from AGOT through AFFC - right up there with Jaime Lannister. It's what makes me so fond of her (and of Jaime) as characters.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

I don't know what else to see except you have to see the bigger picture. Yes, he is repulsive to her, but women are not supposed to find their husbands repulsive, and if they do, they are either to deny it, or to find their beauty as Septa Mordane recommends. By refusing to do this, by telling Tyrion that she might "never" want him, Sansa is making a very radical break from the social conditioning of her society that patriarchy endorses to continue to perpetuate masculine power. She isn't going to be the obedient wife who sacrifices her happiness and sexual fulfilment on the altar of male excellence.

But I think you're saying that her rejection of him primarily derives from her position rebellion whereas I'm thinking it's more due to her repulsion.

As in her repulsion causes her rebellion against duty.

[Kittykatknits]

Yes MARTIN is using Sansa to represent things, but Sansa herself does not have these thoughts.

Yes, he is using Sansa to represent these things via her words, thoughts, and actions. Sansa doesn't need to explicitly say to herself that she wants to take down the patriarchy.

[brashcandy]

For Dany I see it, but for Sansa, yes I browsed through the thread, For Sansa it's different.

I think she does her actions based off of her loves. I don't think she considers what she represents when she does things, more just how it would effect her, people around her, etc.

Isn't every political movement or action, based off of personal desires or inclinations? Sansa is starting out exactly as every other human being does on a journey to making greater waves in society. Dany did not realize the true horror of slavery until she sees what the Unsullied are put through, and then she has a very personal reaction to such cruelty. She didn't start off as a crusader against slavery, but becomes one after she sees the ills that it perpetuates. This is the same thing that is happening with Sansa.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

Yes, he is using Sansa to represent these things via her words, thoughts, and actions. Sansa doesn't need to explicitly say to herself that she wants to take down the patriarchy.

But I don't think she herself is as consumed by taking down the patriarchy, I think she's more passionate about taking down her enemies, the Lannisters, who ruined her family...

I just don't see the patriarchy as a huge aspect in what Sansa's motives are, I think it's a result of her actions.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

You also have to factor in the fact that Sansa is EXTREMELY young on their wedding night. She is still TWELVE. That's very young, even by Westeros standards. Surely that has a lot to do with being beyond reluctant to "seal the deal." Sure, you could point out that Dany wasn't much older on her wedding night, but she hadn't grown up with the same delusions as Sansa, and wasn't given a whole lot of choice in the matter.

[Lyanna Stark]

But I don't think she herself is as consumed by taking down the patriarchy, I think she's more passionate about taking down her enemies, the Lannisters, who ruined her family...

I just don't see the patriarchy as a huge aspect in what Sansa's motives are, I think it's a result of her actions.

She's rather concerned with its effect on her life though, in that by the rules, she will be forced to marry someone in an arranged marriage again, and she does not want that. Hence the patriarchal structures are something she will have to navigate if she wants to gain agency.

I also don't think she has shown a huge wish to exact vengeance on the Lannisters. She says that when she has children, she will teach them to hate the Lannisters, and she thinks LF should give Harrenhal to Walder Frey or Cersei, but that is as far as it goes. Sansa isn't vengeful. She's concerned with survival and also with the fact that she has realised that the structures of society are made in such a way as to prevent her from being happy.