brashcandy Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 But I think you're saying that her rejection of him primarily derives from her position rebellion whereas I'm thinking it's more due to her repulsion.As in her repulsion causes her rebellion against duty.I never said her rejection of him came from some feminist idea of women not being subservient to men. I said that it is through her revulsion that we see an important act of rebellion against patriarchal mandates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 But I don't think she herself is as consumed by taking down the patriarchy, I think she's more passionate about taking down her enemies, the Lannisters, who ruined her family...I just don't see the patriarchy as a huge aspect in what Sansa's motives are, I think it's a result of her actions.Sansa has no desire to take down the Lannisters. The closest she comes to thinking about that is with Joffrey, even then she is horrified with his death and has some lasting trauma over it. She remembers being afraid of Cersei but does not express ill will towards her. It's the same thing with Tyrion too, she doesn't want to be married to him but she remembers that he was largely kind to him. She doesn't like Lannisters but she doesn't want them destroyed. She's not about vengeance.Sansa's whole story arc is about self-autonomy and control over your destiny, it is very much about rejecting the role given to her by the patriarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Arianne Martell Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I never said her rejection of him came from some feminist idea of women not being subservient to men. I said that it is through her revulsion that we see an important act of rebellion against patriarchal mandates.I can agree with you on this, I just thought you were saying she was consumed with the ideas themselves. We can see this as a rebellion against patriarchal mandates but all I am saying is that her motive for the rebellion was not against patriarchal mandates, but against the family, situation, etc. itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 You also have to factor in the fact that Sansa is EXTREMELY young on their wedding night. She is still TWELVE. That's very young, even by Westeros standards. Surely that has a lot to do with being beyond reluctant to "seal the deal." Sure, you could point out that Dany wasn't much older on her wedding night, but she hadn't grown up with the same delusions as Sansa, and wasn't given a whole lot of choice in the matter.Actually, Sansa thinks about her wedding night while in the Vale and concludes that if it had been someone else, she would not have minded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Arianne Martell Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 She's rather concerned with its effect on her life though, in that by the rules, she will be forced to marry someone in an arranged marriage again, and she does not want that. Hence the patriarchal structures are something she will have to navigate if she wants to gain agency.I also don't think she has shown a huge wish to exact vengeance on the Lannisters. She says that when she has children, she will teach them to hate the Lannisters, and she thinks LF should give Harrenhal to Walder Frey or Cersei, but that is as far as it goes. Sansa isn't vengeful. She's concerned with survival and also with the fact that she has realised that the structures of society are made in such a way as to prevent her from being happy.However, she seems all right with arranged marriages. Take Willias? Wasn't that going to be sort of an arranged marriage, or are you talking more about forced marriages. When I say enemies, I mean moreso that in her disgust of her enemies, she doesn't want to do things for them etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Arianne Martell Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Actually, Sansa thinks about her wedding night while in the Vale and concludes that if it had been someone else, she would not have minded.EXACTLY. It was against the PERSON not so much the institution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selyse's Moustache Rides Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Actually, Sansa thinks about her wedding night while in the Vale and concludes that if it had been someone else, she would not have minded.If she wouldn't have minded if it was someone else, then how is she rebelling against the patriarchy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I can agree with you on this, I just thought you were saying she was consumed with the ideas themselves. We can see this as a rebellion against patriarchal mandates but all I am saying is that her motive for the rebellion was not against patriarchal mandates, but against the family, situation, etc. itself.Her motive for the rebellion is very personal yes, but she's also making a statement concerning women's duty in society. The revulsion she feels for Tyrion isn't important in and of itself, but it's what she does with the revulsion that matters: the rejection. This is what turns it from being a mere personal reaction into a political statement that has consequences for patriarchal authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Arianne Martell Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Her motive for the rebellion is very personal yes, but she's also making a statement concerning women's duty in society. The revulsion she feels for Tyrion isn't important in and of itself, but it's what she does with the revulsion that matters: the rejection. This is what turns it from being a mere personal reaction into a political statement that has consequences for patriarchal authority.Agreed, but what I am saying is that in her thought process I don't think she sees it as a political statement or anything such as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 EXACTLY.It was against the PERSON not so much the institution.If she wouldn't have minded if it was someone else, then how is she rebelling against the patriarchy?If it was someone else that she had a say in choosing.....In other words, she wants to choose her partner, not the patriarchial figure in her life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Arianne Martell Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 If it was someone else that she had a say in choosing.....In other words, she wants to choose her partner, not the patriarchial figure in her life.Is there a quote on this? I want to analyze the exact wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 If she wouldn't have minded if it was someone else, then how is she rebelling against the patriarchy?Because the patriarchy dictates that women's choices and preferences do not matter. Find something beautiful in your husband or too bad for you essentially. By saying that she wouldn't have minded if it was someone else Sansa is placing importance on her erotic agency and autonomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selyse's Moustache Rides Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Her motive for the rebellion is very personal yes, but she's also making a statement concerning women's duty in society. The revulsion she feels for Tyrion isn't important in and of itself, but it's what she does with the revulsion that matters: the rejection. This is what turns it from being a mere personal reaction into a political statement that has consequences for patriarchal authority.SHE'S not. GRRM is. Sansa just thinks the Imp is icky and is a member of the family that killed her father. GRRM is deconstructing the damsel-in-distress, patriarchal society, etc. GRRM is making political statements. Sansa just wants to get the 7 hells out of there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Arianne Martell Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Because the patriarchy dictates that women's choices and preferences do not matter. Find something beautiful in your husband or too bad for you essentially. By saying that she wouldn't have minded if it was someone else Sansa is placing importance on her erotic agency and autonomy.But that erotic agency and autonomy derives from her initial revulsion of Tyrion. She isn't thinking about how much of a statement she is making, she's thinking about how she would not want to be stuck with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Arianne Martell Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 SHE'S not. GRRM is. Sansa just thinks the Imp is icky and is a member of the family that killed her father. GRRM is deconstructing the damsel-in-distress, patriarchal society, etc. GRRM is making political statements. Sansa just wants to get the 7 hells out of there. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 However, she seems all right with arranged marriages. Take Willias? Wasn't that going to be sort of an arranged marriage, or are you talking more about forced marriages.When I say enemies, I mean moreso that in her disgust of her enemies, she doesn't want to do things for them etc.As of AFFC, no, she is not alright with arranged marriages (as she clearly states herself). In ASOS she is disappointed that it's Willas, but she'll take any chance to get out of Kings Landing. Later in ASOS she thinks that she will tell Lysa she will refuse Sweetrobin. That should be proof enough that Sansa does not view arranged marriages favourably anymore.I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you think she doesn't want to do more for them? What has she done for her enemies?Is there a quote on this? I want to analyze the exact wording.Several. Sansa thinks of people only wanting her for her claim on many occasions. She also thinks that nobody will love her for herself.All the quotes are listed in the "From Pawn to Player" threads. It's really easier to look there if you are really interested.SHE'S not. GRRM is. Sansa just thinks the Imp is icky and is a member of the family that killed her father. GRRM is deconstructing the damsel-in-distress, patriarchal society, etc. GRRM is making political statements. Sansa just wants to get the 7 hells out of there.How do you think GRRM is deconstructing patriarchal society? What political statements is he making with Sansa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selyse's Moustache Rides Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Because the patriarchy dictates that women's choices and preferences do not matter. Find something beautiful in your husband or too bad for you essentially. By saying that she wouldn't have minded if it was someone else Sansa is placing importance on her erotic agency and autonomy.Sansa doesn't think like that. It's a visceral reaction. She's repulsed. The author is doing all those high-minded things, not Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabronius Maximus Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 - She failed to kill Joffrey, the queen, and Tywin while in KL.- Failed to realize that Stannis is awesome and so prevent the Lannister/Tyrell alliance so that he would win the BBW- Failed to read Tywin's mind and therefore send a message to her brother to prevent the RW- Didn't realize that she had the poison in her hairnet so failed to be the one to actually slip it in to Joffrey's wine- Failed to see Tyrion's good sideI'm sure there are several that I've forgotten.--Don't forget her being pretty much the reason to kickstart Ned's downfall. She's like 13, but still she should know better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Arianne Martell Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 As of AFFC, no, she is not alright with arranged marriages (as she clearly states herself). In ASOS she is disappointed that it's Willas, but she'll take any chance to get out of Kings Landing. Later in ASOS she thinks that she will tell Lysa she will refuse Sweetrobin. That should be proof enough that Sansa does not view arranged marriages favourably anymore.I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you think she doesn't want to do more for them? What has she done for her enemies?But don't you think examples such as Sweet Robin and Tyrion are more in dislike or disgust in the specific people rather than what the institution is?She hasn't done anything for her enemies, I'm just saying she doesn't want to give the Lannisters the satisfaction of being a happy little wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selyse's Moustache Rides Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 haha you're awesome, LAM. That's the second time in a short timeframe we've both said practically the same thing at almost the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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