Was Stannis going to Dragonstone to kill Vis/Dany; did he let them go?

[kissdbyfire]

@Mulled Wino, do we need a sarcasm font? I´m not certain. But Wouter would have earned himself one of my cherished likes, if he´d added: "in my opinion"

Wouter did say 'I don't think', 'probably', 'presumably'... Just saying, he got my 'like'. Mulled Vino too, I missed the sarcasm. :)

[total1402]

I don't think we can say that for certain. Stannis, for all his hardness, seems to understand that there is a line that decent people don't cross when it comes to killing children.

Yeah, Edric Storm was a big exception because he stood to save the entire realm and he had Mel whispering about divine provedence and such which is a moral blank cheque. Davos reminds him who he is. In Dragonstone he really didn't stand to gain anything by killing the Targ children and would have crossed that moral line..

[Wouter]

Is that really in keeping with Stannis's notion of justice? He says he was torn just at the notion of fighting Aerys and is he really going to be complicit in his brothers desire for personal vengence?

I don't think Stannis would have a baby girl and a toddler killed under his own watch, but he would probably have done his duty to his brother and delivered his captives to them. It's up to Robert what happens with them.

With Aegon and Rhaenys, it was mentioned, IIRC, that Robert was relieved that someone had already killed them so he wouldn't have to give the order himself, and when he was dying he showed remorse for sending an assassin to Dany so maybe he could have been talked out of it if the children weren't killed either on Dragonstone or directly after arrival at KL. Once he'd seen the children it would presumably become way more difficult to order them killed, as Robert is not a cold man even though he was capable of being cruel when his blood was hot.

[Sevumar]

Yeah, Edric Storm was a big exception because he stood to save the entire realm and he had Mel whispering about divine provedence and such which is a moral blank cheque. Davos reminds him who he is. In Dragonstone he really didn't stand to gain anything by killing the Targ children and would have crossed that moral line..

I'm not sure that Stannis really had a fiery sacrifice in mind for Edric Storm. The boy would've had value for a number of reasons. He could be the same kind of evidence of incest that Gendry was for Jon Arryn. He could be a potential companion and husband for Shireen and the key to continuing House Baratheon. I think there's more to the story of Edric than we're lead to believe. Stannis doesn't really seem that broken up by Davos's actions to remove the boy from Melisandre's power.

[total1402]

Not giving much away, but apparentlyin WoW Stannis briefly remarks/asserts that Aegon is a Blackfrye. That seems an odd distinction to make if you are opposed to all Targs or it didn't matter in some way.

[Jolene Brown]

Not giving much away, but apparentlyin WoW Stannis briefly remarks/asserts that Aegon is a Blackfrye. That seems an odd distinction to make if you are opposed to all Targs or it didn't matter in some way.

When does he do that? I've read all the info about the sample chapters and I don't remember hearing him talk about Aegon at all.

[Sevumar]

When does he do that? I've read all the info about the sample chapters and I don't remember hearing him talk about Aegon at all.

I don't think it happens the way that total1402 is laying out.

When Stannis is talking to Justin Massey about traveling to the Free Cities to buy mercenaries, the topic of the Blackfyres and exiles comes up. Here's the conversation:

Ser Justin's hair had fallen down across one eye. He pushed it back and said, "The captains of the free companies will join a lord more readily than a mere knight, Your Grace. I hold neither lands nor title, why should they sell their swords to me?"

"Go to them with both fists full of golden dragons," the king said, in an acid tone. "That should prove persuasive. Twenty thousand men should suffice. Do not return with fewer."

"Sire, might I speak freely?"

"So long as you speak quickly."

"Your Grace should go to Braavos with the banker."

"Is that your counsel? That I should flee?" The king's face darkened. "That was your counsel on the Blackwater as well, as I recall. When the battle turned against us, I let you and Horpe chivvy me back to Dragonstone like a whipped cur."

"The day was lost, Your Grace."

"Aye, that was what you said. 'The day is lost, sire. Fall back now, that you may fight again.' And now you would have me scamper off across the narrow sea... "

"... to raise an army, aye. As Bittersteel did after the Battle of the Redgrass Field, where Daemon Blackfyre fell."

"Do not prate at me of history, ser. Daemon Blackfyre was a rebel and usurper, Bittersteel a bastard. When he fled, he swore he would return to place a son of Daemon's upon the Iron Throne. He never did. Words are wind, and the wind that blows exiles across the narrow sea seldom blows them back. That boy Viserys Targaryen spoke of return as well. He slipped through my fingers at Dragonstone, only to spend his life wheedling after sellswords. 'The Beggar King,' they called him in the Free Cities. Well, I do not beg, nor will I flee again. I am Robert's heir, the rightful king of Westeros. My place is with my men. Yours is in Braavos. Go with the banker, and do as I have bid."

"As you command," Ser Justin said.

"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."

[total1402]

When does he do that? I've read all the info about the sample chapters and I don't remember hearing him talk about Aegon at all.

He doesn't? Aww thats a shame. I read somebody else who said that happened. I've still to actually to read the preview chapters.

l

[Jolene Brown]

He doesn't? Aww thats a shame. I read somebody else who said that happened. I've still to actually to read the preview chapters.

l

Read the spoiler above, it explains the context in which the Blackfyres are mentioned. It also, in my opinion, highlights a really big mistake that Stannis is about to make, but hey, what do I know?

[total1402]

I don't think it happens the way that total1402 is laying out.

When Stannis is talking to Justin Massey about traveling to the Free Cities to buy mercenaries, the topic of the Blackfyres and exiles comes up. Here's the conversation:

Ser Justin's hair had fallen down across one eye. He pushed it back and said, "The captains of the free companies will join a lord more readily than a mere knight, Your Grace. I hold neither lands nor title, why should they sell their swords to me?"

"Go to them with both fists full of golden dragons," the king said, in an acid tone. "That should prove persuasive. Twenty thousand men should suffice. Do not return with fewer."

"Sire, might I speak freely?"

"So long as you speak quickly."

"Your Grace should go to Braavos with the banker."

"Is that your counsel? That I should flee?" The king's face darkened. "That was your counsel on the Blackwater as well, as I recall. When the battle turned against us, I let you and Horpe chivvy me back to Dragonstone like a whipped cur."

"The day was lost, Your Grace."

"Aye, that was what you said. 'The day is lost, sire. Fall back now, that you may fight again.' And now you would have me scamper off across the narrow sea... "

"... to raise an army, aye. As Bittersteel did after the Battle of the Redgrass Field, where Daemon Blackfyre fell."

"Do not prate at me of history, ser. Daemon Blackfyre was a rebel and usurper, Bittersteel a bastard. When he fled, he swore he would return to place a son of Daemon's upon the Iron Throne. He never did. Words are wind, and the wind that blows exiles across the narrow sea seldom blows them back. That boy Viserys Targaryen spoke of return as well. He slipped through my fingers at Dragonstone, only to spend his life wheedling after sellswords. 'The Beggar King,' they called him in the Free Cities. Well, I do not beg, nor will I flee again. I am Robert's heir, the rightful king of Westeros. My place is with my men. Yours is in Braavos. Go with the banker, and do as I have bid."

"As you command," Ser Justin said.

"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."

What mistake would that be?

Believing nobody is coming over the narrow sea for him?

Risking Braavos deciding to support Aegon because he makes a more direct engagement with them?

."

[Jolene Brown]

What mistake would that be?

Believing nobody is coming over the narrow sea for him?

Risking Braavos deciding to support Aegon because he makes a more direct engagement with them?

."

I think Stannis's mistake is trusting Justin Massey... at the same time as he refuses to give Justin motivation (the promise of lands and/or Asha's hand) to stay true to him. I suspect that won't work out well...

[total1402]

I think Stannis's mistake is trusting Justin Massey... at the same time as he refuses to give Justin motivation (the promise of lands and/or Asha's hand) to stay true to him. I suspect that won't work out well...

So hes going to take the Braavosi money and swords then try to carve out his own chunk of territory? Seems a lot for a minor character but then we all thought the Boltons were nobodies.

[Jolene Brown]

So hes going to take the Braavosi money and swords then try to carve out his own chunk of territory? Seems a lot for a minor character but then we all thought the Boltons were nobodies.

No, I don't think that's it necessarily - more likely, he will link up with another contender - probably a Targaryan - who makes him a better offer. I'm not sure about it, or anything, I just think it's pretty likely. We've seen him with serious doubts about Stannis already - I don't think he's the right person for this mission. And House Massey has historic ties to the Targaryans, I believe.

[jarl the climber]

No, I don't think that's it necessarily - more likely, he will link up with another contender - probably a Targaryan - who makes him a better offer. I'm not sure about it, or anything, I just think it's pretty likely. We've seen him with serious doubts about Stannis already - I don't think he's the right person for this mission. And House Massey has historic ties to the Targaryans, I believe.

Littlefinger says you have to look at what a man wants in order to move him. Massey seems like he wants Asha and her claim to the Iron Islands from what we saw in aDwD.

[The Sleeper]

No, I don't think that's it necessarily - more likely, he will link up with another contender - probably a Targaryan - who makes him a better offer. I'm not sure about it, or anything, I just think it's pretty likely. We've seen him with serious doubts about Stannis already - I don't think he's the right person for this mission. And House Massey has historic ties to the Targaryans, I believe.

What you are saying makes sense but I don't see the Iron Bank allow Massey free reign wtih theri money. They gave the loan to Stannis, not Massey and I think it is dangerous, if not outright stupid, to embezzle from the Iron Bank.

[total1402]

No, I don't think that's it necessarily - more likely, he will link up with another contender - probably a Targaryan - who makes him a better offer. I'm not sure about it, or anything, I just think it's pretty likely. We've seen him with serious doubts about Stannis already - I don't think he's the right person for this mission. And House Massey has historic ties to the Targaryans, I believe.

Probably Aegon. Varys spies could well meet him in Braavos and promise the dragonman Asha and the Iron Islands.

Ah, The War for Ashas XXXX :D

[Jolene Brown]

Littlefinger says you have to look at what a man wants in order to move him. Massey seems like he wants Asha and her claim to the Iron Islands from what we saw in aDwD.

Yeah, and he wanted Val, like, 10 seconds before that. Give him a better offer, or make him the offer that Stannis has failed to give him, and see what happens.