Melisandre: unwitting servant of Evil

[Vampire Squid]

Agree with this. Back in CoK when Jon/Ghost communicates with Bran in a dream (a weirwood with Bran's face and 3 eyes), Ghost snarls because he smells like darkness and death or something. Even though everyone is a shade of grey, this might be foreshadowing that Bran possibly becomes darker grey (I hope not though).

This is an argument that just confuses me. Jaime Lannister is a handsome and brave candidate for best knight in the realm. Melisandre worships a god of light and life. The Night's Watch dresses all in black and has the word "night" in the name. Qyburn looks like everyone's favourite grandfather. Since when is being an undying tree-lich in a lightless cave necessarily an indication of evil?

[kissdbyfire]

This is an argument that just confuses me. Jaime Lannister is a handsome and brave candidate for best knight in the realm. Melisandre worships a god of light and life. The Night's Watch dresses all in black and has the word "night" in the name. Qyburn looks like everyone's favourite grandfather. Since when is being an undying tree-lich in a lightless cave necessarily an indication of evil?

And we even have GRRM (I'll post the quote later if I find it) saying something to the effect of, 'Yeah, and I dressed my good guys in black'.

Appearances...

[Budj]

Yea - I think it's perspesctive. The old gods ARE creepy, but evil? Maybe they just foresaw the invasion of the red god and the others are pissed another andal invasion 2.0 is going to happen.

*assumes the others are an extension of cotf / old gods / greenseer.

[Dark_Rin]

I really can't see that a twist will be that the children of the forest are actually evil.

I just can't believe that Martin would go there having built up Bran becoming a Greenseer from day 1.

[Blisscraft]

I agree the Mel is an unwitting servant. I don't think she is "evil." She's a "true believer." That makes her distant, mysterious, and separate, but it doesn't make her evil. She's flawed and uncompromising with regard to her religious beliefs and that's often frightening. She's human and she makes mistakes. But, deeply, truly evil? No.

[Lamech]

There is no possible way that R'hallor is good. Secondly I really doubt that bloodraven is good. Fire and Ice both kill, somehow I doubt that either god has humanity's best interests in mind. Its not like Mel is flesh and blood. If R'hallor's idea of what he wants in the world is Mel, I don't think he's keeping a place for humanity.

[kissdbyfire]

She's human and she makes mistakes.

I wonder... :stunned:

[Blisscraft]

I wonder... :stunned:

I wonder about it too. She probably was once more human than she is at this point in the story, especially if she can go without sleep and food and warm clothing.

[Dark_Rin]

There is no possible way that R'hallor is good. Secondly I really doubt that bloodraven is good. Fire and Ice both kill, somehow I doubt that either god has humanity's best interests in mind. Its not like Mel is flesh and blood. If R'hallor's idea of what he wants in the world is Mel, I don't think he's keeping a place for humanity.

Gods are above man.

I dont see why they would be on the side of the Others though.

I actually do think that the lord of light is on the side of 'good' (always reluctant to use that word in song) I mean the terrors of the night can only be the others and everything the Red Priests do is to combat this evil.

Unless your going to say that the Others are actually the good guys then I cant see how Melisandre, R'hollor or the Red Priests can be evil.

[kissdbyfire]

I actually do think that the lord of light is on the side of 'good' (always reluctant to use that word in song) I mean the terrors of the night can only be the others and everything the Red Priests do is to combat this evil.

Remember the argument Mel uses with Davos about the shadows? There's no shadow without light? Well, I think she never really thought it throug because without night there's no day.

[Grimwolfe]

i've always thought of bloodraven having some sort of epihany once he came to the wall and became Lord Commander, maybe he decided to go ranging and never came back one day because he wanted to find the CotF, and realised he had a much larger part to play in the world, but due to his age had to wait for and live long enough to guide the next and last greenseer (bran)

my view is Bloodraven will let himself die as soon as he feels bran is strong enough to do what is necessary, or at least teach himself as he once did.

the fact the the cave they are in is warded against the others and the wights suggests they are not allies with them in my opinion.

Mel on the other hand i think is slightly delusional about what has to be done

[Dark_Rin]

Mel on the other hand i think is slightly delusional about what has to be don

She is certainly delusional, but that doesn't make her evil IMO. I do believe Mel and the Order of Light is working to topple the Others.

[Lamech]

Gods are above man.

I dont see why they would be on the side of the Others though.

I actually do think that the lord of light is on the side of 'good' (always reluctant to use that word in song) I mean the terrors of the night can only be the others and everything the Red Priests do is to combat this evil.

Unless your going to say that the Others are actually the good guys then I cant see how Melisandre, R'hollor or the Red Priests can be evil.

Sure they fight the Others. But consider two groups of humans, proachers and wardens fighting over the game in a forest. Who ever wins they'll kill the animals once done. I think its the same thing here. R'Hallor may be at war with the Others and the world the Others will create has no place for humanity. But that doesn't mean R'hallors world has any place for humanity either. The red priests sacrifice humans to the flames. What do you think R'hallor's plan for humanity is?

[Dark_Rin]

R'hollor needs humanity in order to worship him. Azor Ahai his representative was human was he not?

You can't reason what Gods want or don't want, I cant see why he would be working for the downfall of humanity though when his followers are human.

The Carthaginains sacrificed people, you can't real say that Bael was looking to end humanity.

[Not_a_Lady_Brienne]

This is an argument that just confuses me. Jaime Lannister is a handsome and brave candidate for best knight in the realm. Melisandre worships a god of light and life. The Night's Watch dresses all in black and has the word "night" in the name. Qyburn looks like everyone's favourite grandfather. Since when is being an undying tree-lich in a lightless cave necessarily an indication of evil?

Well of course it doesn't necessarily indicate evil, but the passage about Ghost snarling at Bran's smell of darkness and death just feels like really strong foreshadowing. If Bran does become evil, it will happen in future books, though it seems mostly at odds with current events. I say "mostly" because we don't know much about Bloodraven and because Bran is warging Hodor, something we are told is "abominable" because it messes with human free will. So I don't quite see it yet, but given these small bits of foreshadowing, I wouldn't be too surprised..

[Raerin]

Sure they fight the Others. But consider two groups of humans, proachers and wardens fighting over the game in a forest. Who ever wins they'll kill the animals once done. I think its the same thing here. R'Hallor may be at war with the Others and the world the Others will create has no place for humanity. But that doesn't mean R'hallors world has any place for humanity either. The red priests sacrifice humans to the flames. What do you think R'hallor's plan for humanity is?

That was also my thought. The powers behind the Fire and Ice remind me Great Old Ones from the H.P. Lovecraft's novels. They are powerful, inhuman, and have their own, completely alien agenda. Human beings seem to be only the reward for the winner.

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

There is no possible way that R'hallor is good. Secondly I really doubt that bloodraven is good. Fire and Ice both kill, somehow I doubt that either god has humanity's best interests in mind. Its not like Mel is flesh and blood. If R'hallor's idea of what he wants in the world is Mel, I don't think he's keeping a place for humanity.

No possible way? Really? Because the red priests in the series have done a LOT of good.

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

Sure they fight the Others. But consider two groups of humans, proachers and wardens fighting over the game in a forest. Who ever wins they'll kill the animals once done. I think its the same thing here. R'Hallor may be at war with the Others and the world the Others will create has no place for humanity. But that doesn't mean R'hallors world has any place for humanity either. The red priests sacrifice humans to the flames. What do you think R'hallor's plan for humanity is?

There is absolutely no indication that the red priests or their god plan to wipe out humanity. None.

[Raerin]

There is absolutely no indication that the red priests or their god plan to wipe out humanity. None.

Oh, definitely not, that would be too easy, and too obvious. R'hllor might want as well to eradicate his enemy by all means he has, using humanity as a source of power, for instance.

[coze]

R'Hllor and the one who shall not be named are both definitely evil. The fact that R'hllor fights the one who shall not be named does not necessarily infer that it is a good power. Lord of light is a pretty sinister god which demands human sacrifice, promotes assasination and shadow magic, and has life draining powers (see stannis withering each time mel summons a shadow assassin). Actually I think R'hllor is not a 'god' but a lesser demon of sorts. He gets his power from sunken valyria or the shadow (by asshai) and is weaker in westeros. it has some business with the one who shall not be named, which I can't fathom atm.

I don't believe divination power of Red Priests actually derive from the red god. I believe they are using an extention of the divination power used by the green seers, which means it is actually the old gods (the memories of the weirwoods) where they get this power from. They are just using a different means to access it.

Also I don't believe they have the power to raise the dead. I think the situation with thoros of myr and his band is little bit dubious. I think there is a faceless man in that group which takes the faces of the famous personna they encounter. Then they put on a mummers show to pretend that thoros 'raised' the dead person, when actually what's happenning is the FM putting on the mask of the dead. (remember that the memories of the dead person are also transplanted with the mask, so they have some access to the memories of the dead.)

Having said all these actually I have half a mind to claim that the lord of light is actually a false god, that is doesn't hold any special powers, but it's followers just use external resources to make it seem so.

The old gods are in my opinion a neutral power. They don't like the red priests per se because of their hostility to weirwoods, but they are using the red priests in any case, to aid them in their war against the one who shall not be named, which is the common enemy.