Saci Targaryen Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I believe that the whole point of religion in GRRM's work is that there is no "good" or "evil" concepts, and that godly designs, whatever they might be, are completely alien to humans and cannot be understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolGirlsMurderFriend Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Oh, definitely not, that would be too easy, and too obvious. R'hllor might want as well to eradicate his enemy by all means he has, using humanity as a source of power, for instance.They're definitely trying to use men to fight their war, but it's in the men's best interest as well :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolGirlsMurderFriend Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 R'Hllor and the one who shall not be named are both definitely evil. The fact that R'hllor fights the one who shall not be named does not necessarily infer that it is a good power. Lord of light is a pretty sinister god which demands human sacrifice, promotes assasination and shadow magic, and has life draining powers (see stannis withering each time mel summons a shadow assassin). Actually I think R'hllor is not a 'god' but a lesser demon of sorts. He gets his power from sunken valyria or the shadow (by asshai) and is weaker in westeros. it has some business with the one who shall not be named, which I can't fathom atm.I don't believe divination power of Red Priests actually derive from the red god. I believe they are using an extention of the divination power used by the green seers, which means it is actually the old gods (the memories of the weirwoods) where they get this power from. They are just using a different means to access it.Also I don't believe they have the power to raise the dead. I think the situation with thoros of myr and his band is little bit dubious. I think there is a faceless man in that group which takes the faces of the famous personna they encounter. Then they put on a mummers show to pretend that thoros 'raised' the dead person, when actually what's happenning is the FM putting on the mask of the dead. (remember that the memories of the dead person are also transplanted with the mask, so they have some access to the memories of the dead.)Having said all these actually I have half a mind to claim that the lord of light is actually a false god, that is doesn't hold any special powers, but it's followers just use external resources to make it seem so.The old gods are in my opinion a neutral power. They don't like the red priests per se because of their hostility to weirwoods, but they are using the red priests in any case, to aid them in their war against the one who shall not be named, which is the common enemy.What gods, up until modern times, hadn't ever demanded sacrifice? That's a pale argument considering what we know of this culture. How is the faith executing people any different than burning them? They die either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blisscraft Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I believe that the whole point of religion in GRRM's work is that there is no "good" or "evil" concepts, and that godly designs, whatever they might be, are completely alien to humans and cannot be understood.Welcome! I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coze Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 What gods, up until modern times, hadn't ever demanded sacrifice? That's a pale argument considering what we know of this culture. How is the faith executing people any different than burning them? They die either way.well it all boils down to what you consider 'good' and 'evil' of course. for me any god which demands any sacrifice (human or animal) is evil. or certainly not good. therefore I would consider most faiths in history 'evil' (I'm an atheist btw, if it makes any difference).although we don't know much about the red god culture atm, I think there is a connection between sunken valyria, dragons and the red god. (which certainly doesn't inspire any good intentions) also one might argue that the others are not evil as well just because they kill people to raise them for their thrall (they're just trying to increase their numbers, their way of reproduction). also even if they win the winter war, they might not totally annihilate all humans, they may enter into a symbiotic relationship with them, like the craster's hut to supply them with new bodies. which may be a better end for humanity than what the lord of light has in store for them. (a sunken westeros ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolGirlsMurderFriend Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Well then all gods, including the Judao-Christian, are evil with the exception of Buddha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampire Squid Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 There is absolutely no indication that the red priests or their god plan to wipe out humanity. None.According to Benerro, Rh'llor's shiny new paradise world would be endless summer. Putting aside how horrifying that is and how much I'd never want to live in such a world, that sounds ecologically unsustainable and would probably end up turning Earthos (or whatever we're calling the world) into Arrakis. The god of fire is not the person I'd want in sole charge of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saci Targaryen Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 According to Benerro, Rh'llor's shiny new paradise world would be endless summer. Putting aside how horrifying that is and how much I'd never want to live in such a world, that sounds ecologically unsustainable and would probably end up turning Earthos (or whatever we're calling the world) into Arrakis. The god of fire is not the person I'd want in sole charge of the world.Yea, and by endless-summer one could end up getting endless-fire. Rh'lor obviously has a strong connection to fire, and so do their servants, the Targaryens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolGirlsMurderFriend Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 According to Benerro, Rh'llor's shiny new paradise world would be endless summer. Putting aside how horrifying that is and how much I'd never want to live in such a world, that sounds ecologically unsustainable and would probably end up turning Earthos (or whatever we're calling the world) into Arrakis. The god of fire is not the person I'd want in sole charge of the world.So he's offering them eternal life, the Great Other is offering death, death, death and more death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coze Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 So he's offering them eternal life, the Great Other is offering death, death, death and more death.I beg to differ. From what I understand by melissandre's (and other red priests) certain properties (not having to eat/drink, not having to sleep, not effected by cold, moving without shuffling their robes and such) hint that they're another kind of undead, just made of light/fire/sorcery instead of dead flesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolGirlsMurderFriend Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 We call our idea of heaven "eternal life", dont we? That doesn't mean the people there arent dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raerin Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 We call our idea of heaven "eternal life", dont we? That doesn't mean the people there arent dead.Well, maybe Others try to create 'ice' paradise on earth then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Ali Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Well, I'm not on the side of fire. I hate heat and fire and bright lights, while I love ice and coldness and dimness. So I don't like Mel at all, Dany and especially her dragons, and I LOVE the Others. They are just so coooooool. I'm on Bran and BR's side, rather than Mel. Sadly, I don't think BR is on the Others side. He is one of the old gods, as is Bran, and the cotf fought the Others along with the first men eight thousand years ago, what leads you to believe that they have changed sides? And why would the wights attack their party? The wights attack would certainly make Bran against them. Someone please enlighten me. And whatever BR is doing the other old gods have to agree with, and they weren't with the Others back in the long night. All for Bran! Down with Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmholt Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 This is an argument that just confuses me. Jaime Lannister is a handsome and brave candidate for best knight in the realm. Melisandre worships a god of light and life. The Night's Watch dresses all in black and has the word "night" in the name. Qyburn looks like everyone's favourite grandfather. Since when is being an undying tree-lich in a lightless cave necessarily an indication of evil?Sort of my point. She decides they are (stated in the text) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmholt Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 Mel has some powers and a lot of powders. I think she makes mistakes left and right, and I'm not even counting the 'grey girl'.And her main mistake may be that she fits her visions into her world view that there IS distinct good and evil in the world and in people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamech Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 We call our idea of heaven "eternal life", dont we? That doesn't mean the people there arent dead.The Red Priests are the Lord of Light's counter part to the Others. The red priests lost their flesh and blood and had it replaced with fire and light. The Others are made of ice and snow, and again probably former humans. Its possible that one or both is planning on transforming all of humanity to Others/Red-Priests, but it doesn't look good. Especially for the Red Priests. Far to much of their magic involves sacrifce of humans for this too be good for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArticulateGhost Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 A big plot twist would be that the Children are behind the Others, in which case her vision would hold true.Yeah would be interesting. I remember reading something in aDwD where Bran was on about how if men were on the verge of extinction they would rage and kill, but the children of the forest just sing and dance. It made me think maybe they will rage and kill in the form of the Others, as revenge for being pushed to extinction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamech Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Yeah would be interesting. I remember reading something in aDwD where Bran was on about how if men were on the verge of extinction they would rage and kill, but the children of the forest just sing and dance. It made me think maybe they will rage and kill in the form of the Others, as revenge for being pushed to extinction?Isn't their magic done by singing? :ack: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampire Squid Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 So he's offering them eternal life, the Great Other is offering death, death, death and more death.Eternal warmth. Fire consumes and ice preserves, remember?Also, eternal summer means eternal flies all over the place, so definitely a bad thing :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal'c Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I wonder about it too. She probably was once more human than she is at this point in the story, especially if she can go without sleep and food and warm clothing.And drink poison... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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