Stannis' Sellswords? (Possible Spoilers)

[E-Ro]

People are overestimating the tyrell lannister alliance, the lannisters are broken the only army they have now is 10,000 strong and shrinking. The tyrells are busy with the ironborn, faegon, and marges trial, they are fighting on multiple fronts and vying with the lannisters if stannis gets 20,000 sellswords they are finneshed, he will raise the north and riverlands and vale, the tyrells hitched up with the lannisters whom everyone hates, a critical error.

[Jolene Brown]

People talk about plot gifts - I think Cercei's entire "reign" in A Feast for Crows is a plot gift to other characters, mostly Stannis. No one is THAT stupid.

[E-Ro]

I agree if cercei were not in power stannis would not stand a chance, the alliance would be strong and healthy, not fracturing.

[Ser Uncle P]

don't forget the 20,000 mercenaries Stannis's loan will buy are well equipped professional soldiers. The Reach/Lannister forces include levies of lightly armwd serfs who'd rather be back on the farm. As for Westerosi Winter, Braavos' canals often freeze, so Bravoosi hirelings would be used to cold. I don't think the sellswords Massey recruits will be Summer Islanders or Lazarene!

[David C. Hunter]

We know that most sellsword companies are in the middle of fighting against Dany in Slaver's Bay, but do we know of any of the sellsword companies in Braavos? Stannis actually tells Massey to send his way Braavos sellswords and then head to where the Golden Company was last seen.

So do we know of any sellswords in Braavos?

[Jolene Brown]

I just want to give this topic my requisite contribution that I give every time this comes up - :) - that I don't see Justin Massey as very reliable... he has the potential to be Stannis's Aurane Waters, in my opinion.

[Batman]

don't forget the 20,000 mercenaries Stannis's loan will buy are well equipped professional soldiers. The Reach/Lannister forces include levies of lightly armwd serfs who'd rather be back on the farm. As for Westerosi Winter, Braavos' canals often freeze, so Bravoosi hirelings would be used to cold. I don't think the sellswords Massey recruits will be Summer Islanders or Lazarene!

Finally someone brought this aspect up. How much better are the sellsword in terms of skill and quality? Most levies from Westeros are not well trained soldiers, their knights can be as good as any unsullied or dothraki but they are such a small part of their forces.

We know that sellswords will stab their employer in the back for the right price but there is no one on the planet who can bid higher than the Iron Bank. What is the point of taking Lannister gold when the Iron Bank can offer far more? Hell, it would make sense that some of the Lannisters bannermen could be bought by the Iron Bank.

[Super_Hodor]

I myself have been wondering the same thing, but I've also been wondering, does essos have 20,000 sellswords available? it seems they are all a little mixed up or involved with the mother of dragons, or is braavos or another free city gonna have that many sellswords fresh n hot out the oven all of a sudden?

[Batman]

I myself have been wondering the same thing, but I've also been wondering, does essos have 20,000 sellswords available? it seems they are all a little mixed up or involved with the mother of dragons, or is braavos or another free city gonna have that many sellswords fresh n hot out the oven all of a sudden?

I think that sellswords are big business in Essos. The nine free cities are constantly at war and the Slavers will always want some extra protection in the face of Dothraki invasion. The GC had 10,000 and they were top class, I assume that there are other top class companies who have somewherenear that amount, maybe 5,000-8,000. If not he could just hire a few dozen of the smaller companies.

[Black Wolf Smith]

We know that most sellsword companies are in the middle of fighting against Dany in Slaver's Bay, but do we know of any of the sellsword companies in Braavos? Stannis actually tells Massey to send his way Braavos sellswords and then head to where the Golden Company was last seen.

So do we know of any sellswords in Braavos?

Good question #1! No we don't know how many sellsword Co. there are in Esso. But the ones we do know about are either in or on the way to Dany's party because the slavers want her dead, and are willing to pay for it.

Finally someone brought this aspect up. How much better are the sellsword in terms of skill and quality? Most levies from Westeros are not well trained soldiers, their knights can be as good as any unsullied or dothraki but they are such a small part of their forces.

We know that sellswords will stab their employer in the back for the right price but there is no one on the planet who can bid higher than the Iron Bank. What is the point of taking Lannister gold when the Iron Bank can offer far more? Hell, it would make sense that some of the Lannisters bannermen could be bought by the Iron Bank.

Good Question #2 but it is missing somethings. The Quality is important when getting sellswords, but there are many other points as well. While 2S, and GCo. are 2 of the bigger, badder, and best what sets them apart and above others that could come to Westeros are things like that they are both founded by Westerosians(?) they have a better understanding of both tatics and skills/weakness of Westeros armies. GC/2S would have records about what tatics/weapons to use so they would be advantage, others might not be.

Lets say that a sellsword co made up of Dothraki came over, most of there tatics would be based on horses. Fast moving, lightly armored with bows for fast strikes. In dorne and a few other places that may work very well (until they need to seige a city or castle) But in mountains, or in snow they would be in alot of trouble.

I myself have been wondering the same thing, but I've also been wondering, does essos have 20,000 sellswords available? it seems they are all a little mixed up or involved with the mother of dragons, or is braavos or another free city gonna have that many sellswords fresh n hot out the oven all of a sudden?

Good Question #3 Again all the sellswords that we know of are either in Westeros already, or with/against Dany. If they are against her, they most likely be broken or beaten so they wouldn't be much good, and unlikely to want to go against Dany again(or at least not right away, some would want revenge but they would have to recruit new swords, train, ect)

The ones with her, are likely to come with her. So Stannis can't buy them either.

Neither Stannis, Jon nor the guy from the Iron Bank seems to know about what is going on in Slavers Bay, It will be hard to get a sellsword army from any where. IMO even if they find some other co's to hire they wouldn't want to take the job, if Dany's Troops do what we all think there going to do. Then they would have to follow Dany across the sea's? I just don't see it happeing.

The guy from the IB is doing what he was suppose to do, but things have changed and by the time he gets back to Bravos things will have changed more. The IB will still try to support Stannis if for no other reason then they don't have agreements with any of the other players, the reason they were willing to support him in the first place was to go against Cersei. They can't let someone like her not pay them, even if she try to start paying them now they wouldnt accept it. If they were to lose money on the deal with Stannis, that isn't the point. Their point is that she stopped paying, so they have to have her taken out to set an example of what happens when try that.

[Darth Rivers]

In the sample chapter for the new book we see Stannis sending one of his men to use his new found Iron Bank money to hire sellswords. He tells him to hire 20,000 men and if possible to start with the Golden company.

How effective would sellswords from across the narrow sea be in the Westeros landscape?

About as effective as native Westerosi. The free companies fight much the same way as they do - heavy lancers, lighter cavalry, polearm bearing infantry and archers/crossbowmen. I see no real difference there, except that the sellsword companies have tighter organisation within them.

How many sellswords can Stannis realistically expect to bring? He says to start with 20,000, how many more could he get if the conflict wears on?

20 thousand is unrealistic indeed. But since it's the Iron Bank suporting him, we can expect considerable numbers.

How many sellswords of real value are there to be had in Essos?

Define sellswords of value - so long as you pay them well, they will all fight well. That's the point of mercenaries.

@whoever said westerosi use untrained levies:

BULLSHIT. Levies don't mean the same thing as conscripts. Levying is the action of calling up subjects who are bound to service through some kind of contract. In this case, the feudal lords. But the majority of the troops are retainers of these lords - their private professional soldiers.

Whenever peasants do get levied, it's by commissioning certain numbers of armed commoners, most of whom know how to use the weapons they own. Ubfortunately, like in real life, Westeros likely allows those who can afford it to buy off the commissioners, which means that sometimes the lowest classes get conscripted. But the money acquired through the bribes allows to equip these other soldiers, or hire some mercenaries in their place.

[Batman]

Good Question #3 Again all the sellswords that we know of are either in Westeros already, or with/against Dany. If they are against her, they most likely be broken or beaten so they wouldn't be much good, and unlikely to want to go against Dany again(or at least not right away, some would want revenge but they would have to recruit new swords, train, ect)

The ones with her, are likely to come with her. So Stannis can't buy them either.

Neither Stannis, Jon nor the guy from the Iron Bank seems to know about what is going on in Slavers Bay, It will be hard to get a sellsword army from any where. IMO even if they find some other co's to hire they wouldn't want to take the job, if Dany's Troops do what we all think there going to do. Then they would have to follow Dany across the sea's? I just don't see it happeing.

The guy from the IB is doing what he was suppose to do, but things have changed and by the time he gets back to Bravos things will have changed more. The IB will still try to support Stannis if for no other reason then they don't have agreements with any of the other players, the reason they were willing to support him in the first place was to go against Cersei. They can't let someone like her not pay them, even if she try to start paying them now they wouldnt accept it. If they were to lose money on the deal with Stannis, that isn't the point. Their point is that she stopped paying, so they have to have her taken out to set an example of what happens when try that.

I think there are more than 20,000 sellswords in Essos, they are always fighting its huge business. With the possible exception of Bravvos, all of the other free cities are constantly fighting over the disputed lands. The Golden Company has been contracted to fight there more than once and they are still disputed so I have to assume that there are other companies capable of holding the GC at bay. Other cities will buy sellswords as extra protection from passing Dothraki or to put down revolts of various kinds. Ships, slavery and sellswords would form the backbone of the Essos economy.

You bring up something interesting. "Neither Stannis, Jon nor the guy from the Iron Bank seems to know about what is going on in Slavers Bay". The timelines of the books are all over the place so I suppose it is possible that Tycho is not aware of the slave situation. Although Tycho is aware of the dragons because he mentions it to Jon. Either way it seems impossible to me that an organization as powerful as the Iron Bank does not have spys all over the world providing reports on anything of importance. Illyrio manages to pay for Varys' spys' and he is an ant compared to the Iron Bank. They have to be aware of something like a slave revolt, it effects the economy so drastically. I dont know where this is going, but I dont see the Iron Bank or even Tycho being ignorant of Dany, because even nobodies like Littlefinger and Illyrio are aware.

[Batman]

About as effective as native Westerosi. The free companies fight much the same way as they do - heavy lancers, lighter cavalry, polearm bearing infantry and archers/crossbowmen. I see no real difference there, except that the sellsword companies have tighter organisation within them.

20 thousand is unrealistic indeed. But since it's the Iron Bank suporting him, we can expect considerable numbers.

Define sellswords of value - so long as you pay them well, they will all fight well. That's the point of mercenaries.

1 - Essos is warmer than Westeros and its winters are less brutal. I get the feeling they would be less effective now that winter has come. On a side note Dothraki would be useless.

2 - Stannis knows his army strengths, and sellswords are huge business over there. The GC have 10,000 men, why is it so unthinkable that other companies could posses 5,000-8,000 men?

3 - How much better are they than a Westerosi army? They have far more experience in battle, even after the war of five kings.

[Darth Rivers]

1 - Essos is warmer than Westeros and its winters are less brutal. I get the feeling they would be less effective now that winter has come. On a side note Dothraki would be useless.

So should be Stannis's men. Yet they appear to be doing quite well for themselves. Oh, and I wouldn't exactly call Braavos a tropical paradise.

2 - Stannis knows his army strengths, and sellswords are huge business over there. The GC have 10,000 men, why is it so unthinkable that other companies could posses 5,000-8,000 men?

It is not unthinkable. What is unlikely is that he'd manage to round them up that quickly, and cover the expenses of shipping them over, feeding them and manage to get them through hundreds of kilometers of winter storms.

3 - How much better are they than a Westerosi army? They have far more experience in battle, even after the war of five kings.

There is no such thing as the Westerosi army. Only hosts of retinues and militias raised for war. As far as quality goes, I would say they are on average about the same or slightly worse as their respective counterparts in the magnates' retinues, but better than your average militiaman. They compensate for this by having stricter organisation.

[Batman]

So should be Stannis's men. Yet they appear to be doing quite well for themselves. Oh, and I wouldn't exactly call Braavos a tropical paradise.

It is not unthinkable. What is unlikely is that he'd manage to round them up that quickly, and cover the expenses of shipping them over, feeding them and manage to get them through hundreds of kilometers of winter storms.

There is no such thing as the Westerosi army. Only hosts of retinues and militias raised for war. As far as quality goes, I would say they are on average about the same or slightly worse as their respective counterparts in the magnates' retinues, but better than your average militiaman. They compensate for this by having stricter organisation.

The Northern men are doing quite well, but the Southern men are having a much harder time with it. They are freezing and dying and holding up the Northmen. The Northmen will be the best allies Stannis can get because they understand winter better than anyone else in the war. The Bravvosi would experience similiar winters to the Vale since they are roughly parallel. To reach 20,000 he will have to look south, those will do less well.

Difficult and unlikely but possible. The debt to the Iron Bank will be huge but if they are willing to pay it can be done.

The rank and file would be better in the sellsword comapnies rather than the knights or armoured men. Hopefullt Stannis doesnt end up scrapping the bottom of the barrel, the Brave Companions "stricter organization" probably wont help his cause much.

[Darth Rivers]

The Northern men are doing quite well, but the Southern men are having a much harder time with it. They are freezing and dying and holding up the Northmen. The Northmen will be the best allies Stannis can get because they understand winter better than anyone else in the war. The Bravvosi would experience similiar winters to the Vale since they are roughly parallel. To reach 20,000 he will have to look south, those will do less well.

Difficult and unlikely but possible. The debt to the Iron Bank will be huge but if they are willing to pay it can be done.

The rank and file would be better in the sellsword comapnies rather than the knights or armoured men. Hopefullt Stannis doesnt end up scrapping the bottom of the barrel, the Brave Companions "stricter organization" probably wont help his cause much.

The "rank&file" of Westerosi armies can be much better, or much worse, or the same - depending on the sellswords and on the lord in question. Most troops are retainers - professional soldiers who have some kind of a permanent contract with a lord. The free companies are composed of the same professional soldiers, except for the fact that their contracts bind them to the company itself rather than an individual. Another common type of mercenaries are the freelancers - they don't have permanent contracts, but offer their services to lords or companies for a specififed amount of time. Those are numerous in both Westeros and Essos.

Remember, retainers are not just the elite - often entire armies are composed of them, like the one Stannis took north, or Robb's southern campaign host.

[Impin'ain'teasy]

How long should we expect it to take for Massey to buy these sellswords and make his way back across the sea with them?

Just long enough for an "oh shit" moment to completely change the military and political landscape of the series. If I had to guess.

Or just long enough to bail Stannis out of some terrible situation.

[Darth Rivers]

Long enough for Stannis to die. Because we all know the bastard-turned-king Jon will win in the end.

[Jolene Brown]

I'll be surprised if he even goes, much less if he comes back.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I think there are more than 20,000 sellswords in Essos, they are always fighting its huge business.

They have to be aware of something like a slave revolt, it effects the economy so drastically. I dont know where this is going, but I dont see the Iron Bank or even Tycho being ignorant of Dany,

I agree with most of what you are saying, but my points was that in aDwD did Tyrion hear that the slavers were trying to hire all the sellswords they could find? That is part of how the Dorne's got hired because they need all the swords they could get, almost all the sellswords in Esso that we know of other then GC which is in Westeros, BC which are destroyed, and something called the Bright Banners are in Y area. When GC was hanging out, they were given ships to get rid of them, because all the other were in Y, and nobody knew why they were hanging out.

GC have 10k but are one of the largest co. I can't find it but somebody had numbers and most of the other sellswords have something like 500 to 5k, The other really big ones are 2S, windblown, and stromcrows but they already mixed in with this.

I was not saying that IB doesn't know, I was saying that guy did not know about it, that it started blowing up after he left Bravos, and that info had not caught up with him or he did not tell Stannis.

I also IRC the Ironmen did not go to Bravos because they would not have been welcome there.

Unless Bright Banners whom we heard of, is really huge, there just aren't any others out there that could come. Not that GRRM can't make up another sellsword co. if he needs to.