Euron Greyjoy

[poffo Stark]

i am personally intrigued by the character of Euron. he is a Greyjoy but smartest and trickiest. i don't know if he actually did all he has boasted, and if he can manage to do all those thngs as well. but anyway it will be a lot interesting to see his mysteries and crafts joined with Dany and her dragons.

though, i like Victarion also and he has a chance too [even only because HE's going to meet Dany and not Euron]

and about Theon... who knows? what has he been through exactly?

[jon tarkaryen]

i am personally intrigued by the character of Euron. he is a Greyjoy but smartest and trickiest. i don't know if he actually did all he has boasted, and if he can manage to do all those thngs as well. but anyway it will be a lot interesting to see his mysteries and crafts joined with Dany and her dragons.

though, i like Victarion also and he has a chance too [even only because HE's going to meet Dany and not Euron]

and about Theon... who knows? what has he been through exactly?

well yes that is the point.since Victarion is sent to dany by Euron,and he has his own plans,he will be in charge.He can tell Dany anything that he wants and Dany will probably belive in that.

And so what if Iron Fleet is the best fleet of longships in the world?Iron fleet's ships are only the best ships of Ironmen.I am sure that Redwyne fleet or Bravoos one would eat them alive.

I doubt that.

Frankly, considering that Euron has is also a ironborn, boasts about raiding as far as asshai, and actually takes to loyalty of almost all captains, saying that only Victarion has a fleet capable of doing that is ridiculous at best.

Victarion has a part of the whole ironborn fleet, so does Asha, but most of the loyalties lie with Euron. When Euron talked to Victarion, it was simple asskissing to get him to do what he wanted in his stead, because he wanted ironborns on the job instead of other people, not because he had not a fleet capable of doing it.

Victarion is the head of Iron fleet.Euron is their king.who will they follow?

that is the question.

[The Mountain that Reads]

I bet the Braavosi fleet would destroy the Ironborn fleet simply because the Ironborn Fleet relies on boarding ships and amphibious tactics. The Braavosi rely on long range assaults as they had scorpions and all manner of fire-slinging ships in their fleet, which is known to be one of the largest in the world.

I think Dany's "groom to dread" will be Euron, not Victarion, not Theon. Theon is doomed regardless of whether or not he survives the Dreadfort. When the Starks realize he's still alive and can actually muster their forces, Theon's a dead man.

The fact that this groom is to be "the groom to dread" makes me think that Euron will force her into marriage by threatening to steal Drogon from her with his horn. Victarion would be coming to her practically begging for her support because he has been tossed aside by Euron. Victarion is in no position to marry Dany, nor is Theon, but Euron is and he has the charisma to do so.

Now here's a question that might seem dumb: What is Euron's goals? Does he believe a Greyjoy can be king in the North like Balon thought or does he have higher aspirations?

[Ser Gendry of Hollow Hill]

Now here's a question that might seem dumb: What is Euron's goals? Does he believe a Greyjoy can be king in the North like Balon thought or does he have higher aspirations?

AFfC answered that question. Asha wants some lands in the North to go with Iron Isles and peace. Victarion wants what Balon started, to be king of Iron Isles and North.

Euron wants to sit on Iron throne and rule westoros. His plan is to conquer it the same way Aegon did, with dragons.

[Jon Targaryen]

It's a mount to dread, not a groom to dread. Groom to dread would make it a little obvious.

[poffo Stark]

Yes, Euron's ambition is the Seven Kingdoms, not less. and Dany's dragons can be exploited by him as a threat (in the sense of stealing them with the horn).

i don't know who might win between the Braavosi and the Ironborn. i wouldn't stand on the Braavosi's side...

[Sgt Detritus]

Why will it be a Greyjoy at all? Because of the House of the Undying vision - a corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly - in the bride of fire triplet.

Could it be Aeron Damphair, priest of the Drowned God, who would have gone through that ritual himself and been brought back to life...

[Circle Breaker]

Crackpot theory #453846: Undead Maester Aemon.

SPOILER: aFfC

He's preserved in that nice summer island rum. Dany can't resist such a tropical companion. Plus the targs are all about keeping it in the family

[cybroleach]

I bet the Braavosi fleet would destroy the Ironborn fleet simply because the Ironborn Fleet relies on boarding ships and amphibious tactics. The Braavosi rely on long range assaults as they had scorpions and all manner of fire-slinging ships in their fleet, which is known to be one of the largest in the world.

But longship wise the Ironborn have the best in the world and the Tron Fleet are the eliete. The strenght of the Redywne's and Bravosi are their Drummonds and Gallions. While GRRM has said the Redwyne, Royal (ofcourse this was before being destroyed and probably counted the Dragonstone fleet to the total) and Iron Born fleets are all roughly the same in terms of total strenghts. The size and strenght of the Bravosi is not actually given (other than being able to build a gallion in a day) that i know of so it could be smaller/weaker, on par with those fleets or given that it is a water based city larger/stronger.

[Courtland]

Grumpygoat:

Not to mention that it makes little sense from a literary standpoint to describe a figure whose identity is likely meant as a mystery in such a way as to completely remove the mystery. The wolf's head on the man's body is one thing - a blue-lipped, one-eyed sailor is even harder to ignore.

at the time that Clash of kings (and thus these visions) came out we did not yet have a physical description of Euron. We didn't know that he had one eye, or that he had BLUE LIPS. This makes your objections of it not being "literary" irrelevant, Euron was at that point an unknown unknown (to coin a phrase). We only know it would be obvious NOW after 2 more books (including AFFC). You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Stannis was obvious in the vision, and later on Robb became obvious as well. We have now SEEN Euron and guess what? the description doesn't fit, not at all. Not even a little bit. Not even on a sunday hangover. If you want to say its a Greyjoy on a stretch than fine, I can't say you are wrong, but its simply not Euron. Martin has not demonstrably distorted the appearance of a real character in any of those visions yet in that sort of fashion.

Yes, the blue flower on the wall might by a SYMBOL for Jon Snow, but it would be just that: a Symbol representing a man. The Smiling Corpse in the boat wouldn't be a Symbol for another man that looks nothing like him, he would represent a real person.

As to the shadow dragon representing melisandre: don't you think that that is reaching just a bit? It is more probable that this is one of those things (like Rhaego) that DIDN'T come to pass because Davos smuggled away Edric Storm. For that matter, why are we all assuming that the dead man in the boat WILL HAPPEN?

oh yeah, because some people think that Dany is Dumb enough to Marry Euron. As if he councilers LIKE BARRISTAN SELMY wouldn't have some choice advice about the ironborn that would chill her blood...

The lips are Grey because he is a corpse, DUH...

It could JUST AS EASILY be DAVOS. He might be dead, he sails a ship, and seems to be constantly smiling sadly...

my point is that insisting that its a "CLEAR REFERENCE" to "GreyJoy" is overinterpreting. yeah, it might be, but its still not Euron, because it would be break Martins pattern of always describing actual people accurately in visions.

And no Jon, the Silver in her vision is not necessarily a "Clear Reference" to Drogo even though he did give her the Silver. It could easily be a reference to her own coming of age, or the freedom she felt on her horse. It is generally supposed that that represents the night of her marriage but that is just supposition, there is nothing definite about it. In either case though the vision is of Dany and her horse, not Drogo making his significance in the vision clearly secondary to SOMETHING else.

As far as Euron being the "Mount to Dread"

Balerion the "Black Dread"...

Dany has a Black Dragon, that she will have to mount...

I'm just saying, what really seems more probable guys? Dragons are afterall the westerosi equivalent of Tactical Nuclear Weapons...I don't know about you, but that strikes me as way more dreadful than the crows eye.

my $.10

[jon tarkaryen]

Grumpygoat:

at the time that Clash of kings (and thus these visions) came out we did not yet have a physical description of Euron. We didn't know that he had one eye, or that he had BLUE LIPS. This makes your objections of it not being "literary" irrelevant, Euron was at that point an unknown unknown (to coin a phrase). We only know it would be obvious NOW after 2 more books (including AFFC). You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Stannis was obvious in the vision, and later on Robb became obvious as well. We have now SEEN Euron and guess what? the description doesn't fit, not at all. Not even a little bit. Not even on a sunday hangover. If you want to say its a Greyjoy on a stretch than fine, I can't say you are wrong, but its simply not Euron. Martin has not demonstrably distorted the appearance of a real character in any of those visions yet in that sort of fashion.

Yes, the blue flower on the wall might by a SYMBOL for Jon Snow, but it would be just that: a Symbol representing a man. The Smiling Corpse in the boat wouldn't be a Symbol for another man that looks nothing like him, he would represent a real person.

As to the shadow dragon representing melisandre: don't you think that that is reaching just a bit? It is more probable that this is one of those things (like Rhaego) that DIDN'T come to pass because Davos smuggled away Edric Storm. For that matter, why are we all assuming that the dead man in the boat WILL HAPPEN?

oh yeah, because some people think that Dany is Dumb enough to Marry Euron. As if he councilers LIKE BARRISTAN SELMY wouldn't have some choice advice about the ironborn that would chill her blood...

The lips are Grey because he is a corpse, DUH...

It could JUST AS EASILY be DAVOS. He might be dead, he sails a ship, and seems to be constantly smiling sadly...

my point is that insisting that its a "CLEAR REFERENCE" to "GreyJoy" is overinterpreting. yeah, it might be, but its still not Euron, because it would be break Martins pattern of always describing actual people accurately in visions.

And no Jon, the Silver in her vision is not necessarily a "Clear Reference" to Drogo even though he did give her the Silver. It could easily be a reference to her own coming of age, or the freedom she felt on her horse. It is generally supposed that that represents the night of her marriage but that is just supposition, there is nothing definite about it. In either case though the vision is of Dany and her horse, not Drogo making his significance in the vision clearly secondary to SOMETHING else.

As far as Euron being the "Mount to Dread"

Balerion the "Black Dread"...

Dany has a Black Dragon, that she will have to mount...

I'm just saying, what really seems more probable guys? Dragons are afterall the westerosi equivalent of Tactical Nuclear Weapons...I don't know about you, but that strikes me as way more dreadful than the crows eye.

my $.10

we cannot know who is that person in prophercy....but as the things are going,it is probably Greyjoy(Euron or Victarion,maybe both,first one then another).and as the things are going on now,Drogon will make lunch out of Dany.

Could it be Aeron Damphair, priest of the Drowned God, who would have gone through that ritual himself and been brought back to life...

no I think he swore on celibate.and besides,he wouldnt dare to do something like that(remember his dream).

[Roland of Gilead]

His horn will work and then Bran will screw him.

So do you think he'll be warged into a dragon when he rapes him, or Summer?

[Jon Targaryen]

Grumpygoat:

at the time that Clash of kings (and thus these visions) came out we did not yet have a physical description of Euron. We didn't know that he had one eye, or that he had BLUE LIPS. This makes your objections of it not being "literary" irrelevant, Euron was at that point an unknown unknown (to coin a phrase). We only know it would be obvious NOW after 2 more books (including AFFC). You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I don't see how this affects anything. Some visions cannot be understood until later. This is standard throughout fantasy writing.

Stannis was obvious in the vision, and later on Robb became obvious as well. We have now SEEN Euron and guess what? the description doesn't fit, not at all. Not even a little bit. Not even on a sunday hangover. If you want to say its a Greyjoy on a stretch than fine, I can't say you are wrong, but its simply not Euron. Martin has not demonstrably distorted the appearance of a real character in any of those visions yet in that sort of fashion.

What is so wrong about the vision that it excludes Euron? Euron has two eyes, in case that is your objection.

For that matter, why are we all assuming that the dead man in the boat WILL HAPPEN?

It doesn't have to of course but it is there and probably will.

The lips are Grey because he is a corpse, DUH...

"grey lips smiling" means Greyjoy. I have absolutely no doubt on this.

It could JUST AS EASILY be DAVOS. He might be dead, he sails a ship, and seems to be constantly smiling sadly...

I didn't know Davos smilied sadly all the time.

And no Jon, the Silver in her vision is not necessarily a "Clear Reference" to Drogo even though he did give her the Silver. It could easily be a reference to her own coming of age, or the freedom she felt on her horse. It is generally supposed that that represents the night of her marriage but that is just supposition, there is nothing definite about it. In either case though the vision is of Dany and her horse, not Drogo making his significance in the vision clearly secondary to SOMETHING else.

It comes in her "bride of fire" triplet. Dany has already married Drogo. The silver, Drogo's wedding gift, represents her first marriage to Drogo.

[jon tarkaryen]

So do you think he'll be warged into a dragon when he rapes him, or Summer?

even the direwolf cant do much against dragon,so yes,theory is that he will warg into dragon.blah.

I don't see how this affects anything. Some visions cannot be understood until later. This is standard throughout fantasy writing.

What is so wrong about the vision that it excludes Euron? Euron has two eyes, in case that is your objection.

It doesn't have to of course but it is there and probably will.

"grey lips smiling" means Greyjoy. I have absolutely no doubt on this.

I didn't know Davos smilied sadly all the time.

It comes in her "bride of fire" triplet. Dany has already married Drogo. The silver, Drogo's wedding gift, represents her first marriage to Drogo.

I second all this.all great points proving that its greyjoy in that vision(but more probably Victarion then Euron for me).

[Courtland]

I don't see how this affects anything. Some visions cannot be understood until later. This is standard throughout fantasy writing.

What is so wrong about the vision that it excludes Euron? Euron has two eyes, in case that is your objection.

My main objection to the idea that the Corpse in the boat represents Euron is that it looks nothing like him. Every other depiction we have to a person in the visions looks like them at some point in the story. Grumpygoats response to this was to say that it wouldn't make sense (or be "literary", whatever) for Martin to describe The Man in the Boat (Euron) with blue lips and an Eye patch because that would give things away.

My arguement was that it wouldn't have. These visions were published in Clash of Kings before anyone knew that Euron had blue lips or wore an eye patch, thus though his description would have been very...vivid, it wouldn't have told us then who he was, we didn't have that information until "the arms of the Kraken" came out in Dragon magazine.

SO my central claim, again, is that if the man in the Boat is supposed to represent EURON he would have had to look a bit more like him.

The man in the boat might represent the IronBorn and Dany's anticipated contact with them more broadly (and thus the involvement of the Greyjoy's), but it cannot stand simply for EURON, or indicate to us that she will marry Euron. More importantly given that they vision makes the point of telling us that the man is a CORPSE why are we all assuming that Dany won't end up killing the poor sot whoever he is (Dany is not exactly the most stable person who know).

What is so wrong about the vision that it excludes Euron? Euron has two eyes, in case that is your objection.

That and his conspicuous LACK OF BLUE LIPS. Given that no one knew Euron Was drinking SHade of the evening when Clash came out Martin Had no reason or incentive to distort THE MOST DEFINING part of his appearance.

It doesn't have to of course but it is there and probably will.

But a good third of the things described in her visions probably CAN'T come to pass, so why is it highly likely? ANd why are we assuming she will marry them?

"grey lips smiling" means Greyjoy. I have absolutely no doubt on this.

Your welcome to have "No DOubt", however that does not mean "Grey Lips SMiling SADLY" mean greyjoy, it just means that you think that it does. Of course you are still conveniently ignoring the fact that the smiling man is a CORPSE. Yes yes, I know the Ironborn drown their nobles. But we have also been told that they don't REALLY drown them, not the way the Damphair does. They Don't DIE and get recusitated.

I didn't know Davos smilied sadly all the time.

check it, almost evertime Davos is depicted as smiling in the books it has a sad or resigned tinge to it, especially since his sons died.

It comes in her "bride of fire" triplet. Dany has already married Drogo. The silver, Drogo's wedding gift, represents her first marriage to Drogo.

maybee it does, maybee not. My point was that its not clear enough to say it is a "clear reference to Drogo". Yes it was a wedding present to Dany, but if it represents her WEDDING to drogo, then in a larger sense it represents, in no particular order: Her coming of age, her freedom from Viserys, her starting on her quest to retake the throne of westeros, or the first step necessary to awaken her dragons. my point was that its meaning and significance is highly debateable and unclear.

my $.10

[Grant Dempsey]

My main objection to the idea that the Corpse in the boat represents Euron is that it looks nothing like him. Every other depiction we have to a person in the visions looks like them at some point in the story. Grumpygoats response to this was to say that it wouldn't make sense (or be "literary", whatever) for Martin to describe The Man in the Boat (Euron) with blue lips and an Eye patch because that would give things away.

My arguement was that it wouldn't have. These visions were published in Clash of Kings before anyone knew that Euron had blue lips or wore an eye patch, thus though his description would have been very...vivid, it wouldn't have told us then who he was, we didn't have that information until "the arms of the Kraken" came out in Dragon magazine.

It would have after Euron Crow's Eye had been personally introduced, however. If we still aren't meant to know which Greyjoy, specifically, it will be, at this point in the story, it still makes sense for the description of the "corpse" in the vision to have been ambiguous.

[Grumpygoat]

The vision implies Greyjoy. It doesn't have to be one, but every indication is that the individual is just such a person.

The lips are the clearest reference. And if the point is that they're grey, smiling lips to indicate Greyjoy, they're not going to be blue. Insisting that a prophecy abso-poso-lutely can't be a certain thing because the prophecy isn't blatantly obvious is foolish. Prophecy isn't meant to be blatantly obvious. Yes - there are a few examples that are smack the reader in the face clear, like Stannis.

Particularly if a reference to Davos is going to be made. Because Davos doesn't have bright eyes, they're dark and common! So it can't be Davos! At all! Never ever!

Which isn't true. Now, I don't think it references Davos. But Davos is just as equally ruled out as Euron is. Whatever effects becoming, say, a wight might could also rid the blue coloring from the lips as sure as the process makes dark eyes bright blue.

If there wasn't some other way to interpret smiling grey lips - the Greyjoy implication - then arguing based on appearance might hold some water. But it doesn't, because there's a very obvious allusion that grey lips make. It doesn't mean it's right, mind you, but it also means Euron's blue lips don't rule him out. Insisting on a literal interpretation to prophecy is rather missing out on the point.

It's a prophecy, a vision, an omen. Sometimes they're literal. Often they're not.

Then there's the general Greyjoy implication in being a dead man - that which is dead can never die, and all that rot. The ritual death and so on.

The implication is Greyjoy. Euron isn't ruled out. The highest plausibility is with a Greyjoy, whereas it has just about as good a chance as meaning Euron as it does Victarion (or even Theon, for that matter). About the only one truly unlikely to represent the dead man is Aeron.

[Ser Gendry of Hollow Hill]

Hey its a crackpot theory. All it has to meet are few basic rqmts. I buy that second groom is going to be a Greyjoy. Victarion and Euron seems to be the candidates. Euron wants her and is sending Vic who also wants her. Also Quaith keeps saying you gotta go east to get to west. And only fellow who reportedly been to Assahai and back is Euron. Also he got the dragon horn (don't know what it can do yet). Throwing all that into mix and also thinking that just because Dany hatched dragons doesn't mean the ride is going to be smooth from now on. And throw in a little bit of my imagination here comes the theory.

And 'Courtland' started with Ser Gendry it can't be Euron. He didn't say may be or may be not in his first reply. I say this theory is worth same as any other theory in that regard (It's free).

[Courtland]

And 'Courtland' started with Ser Gendry it can't be Euron. He didn't say may be or may be not in his first reply. I say this theory is worth same as any other theory in that regard (It's free).

Yes, and I still maintain that it can't and won't be. I mean yes, Martin CAN do whatever he wants. He could decide tomorrow that Stannis and Jon snow are going to have a gross slash relationship. But you know what? it isn't going to happen.

I am not maintaining that the man in the boat CAN'T represent A greyjoy, or even some GreyJoy involvement. What I am maintaining, based on the way Martin has depicted EVERY OTHER SIGNIFICANT CHARACTER IN PROPHECY is that the CORPSE in the boat does not represent Euron, either PRIMARILY or SOLEY.

I do not discount that it could represent A greyjoy, or the Ironfleet, or victarion, or Theon, (though I think the 2nd is most likely). I am just saying that at some point parabolic symbolism and ones actual appearance have to mesh and the man in the boat is described as LACKING TWO major identifying features of Euron.

1. The Eye patch, or lacking that his "Crows Eye" that looks so different

2. His HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT Blue Lips.

ANd again, nothing about the vision, even its placement, implies that the man will be a groom.

The vision can't primarily represent EUron because it looks nothing like him, grey smiling lips or not. And Evil little Euron doesn't seem to be "smiling SADLY" ever in the appearances we have seen, not in the way the vision implied. Victarion MAYBEE, but not Euron.

I just really think that this Theory is ignoring all the REALLY OBVIOUS problems it has and its adherents are trying to Bend over backwards to explain away inconsistencies rather than admit them. People have been theorizing it would be a greyjoy, and maybee even Euron since long before the arms of the kraken came out (heck, even before SoS came out) and when it did, Eurons appearance should have blown that theory out of the water, but rather than revise or re-think some people say "its a prophecy, never mind the inconsistencies..."

the problem with that approach is that if you are willing to ignore inconsistencies to make it fit, you also have to be willing to ignore or re-interpret the symbolism you so value. You can't shoe-horn the prophecy around to make it fit what you want it to fit (ala melisandre) you have to actually look at its contents and see what fits, and what doesn't. Blue lips one Euron are significant not just because they are so obvious, but because of what they represent: his drinking shade of the evening and "opening his third eye" as it were. Though it is a mundane manifestation, it is MAGICALLY significant; it would be in his description in the prophecy, that or something else to represent it.

my $.10

Your welcome to think its Euron all you want, but it is a million miles away from a foregone conclusion that they will even meet, and While Dany may be Nuts, I really don't think she is either that stupid or crazy (or has council that is that poor).

[Ser Gendry of Hollow Hill]

...............

...............

Your welcome to think its Euron all you want, but it is a million miles away from a foregone conclusion that they will even meet, and While Dany may be Nuts, I really don't think she is either that stupid or crazy (or has council that is that poor).

Why dont you read my first post in this thread more carefully before writing so much. While you are at it read the house of undying phrophesies also more carefully.

It seems you got a problem with great gal Dany marrying the lowlife Euron more than anything else. I wrote that Euron will kidnap and marry by force and steal her dragons.

Also in the house of undying visions the para is actually arranged very well the 3 mounts, the 3 betrayals, the 3 lies she disproves and the 3 marriages. If you dont agree well OK have fun. All these theories are to have fun. If it comes true I am not getting anything and if they don't I don't lose anything. As I said they are free.