Euron Greyjoy

[Courtland]

Why dont you read my first post in this thread more carefully before writing so much. While you are at it read the house of undying phrophesies also more carefully.

It seems you got a problem with great gal Dany marrying the lowlife Euron more than anything else. I wrote that Euron will kidnap and marry by force and steal her dragons.

Also in the house of undying visions the para is actually arranged very well the 3 mounts, the 3 betrayals, the 3 lies she disproves and the 3 marriages. If you dont agree well OK have fun. All these theories are to have fun. If it comes true I am not getting anything and if they don't I don't lose anything. As I said they are free.

I have re-read the house of the undying prophecies 3 times in the last 2 days and listened to them on audio once.

That is why I say there is nothing in them to particularly make us think that she will marry the man in the boat.

Yes, I caught, the first time around the bit about Dany being kidnaped and forced to marry blah blah blah. But that whole idea has more holes in it than swiss cheese. Dany is in Meereen at the moment, surrounded by her own people and councilers with more on the way. yes, most of the ironfleet is on its way to Dany, but I find it highly unlikely that they will be ABLE to kidnapp her, let alone her highly unruly and destructive dragons, no matter what they want.

How easy of a time do you think they are going to have FORCING the dragons onto WOODEN SHIPS to get them back to westeros right now given what we know of the situation from DwD spoilers? About none. If Euron was on a ship heading for Meereen , I would probably be a lot closer to being with you on that one, but your theory supposes that she and her fire-breathing dragons get KIDNAPED out from under the noses of her people and DRAGGED back to WESTEROS on WOODEN SHIPS, just so she can get to Euron to make the rest of it possible.

Thats the reason I totally discounted the bit about her being kidnapped. Honestly Victarion would have a much easier (though still improbable) chance of TALKING Dany into coming with him once her dragons were under control, which is probably going to be the biggest stumbling block to her getting back to westeros as it is; she needs to get them in hand.

my $.10

[Grumpygoat]

The only thing being ignored here is that prophecy's are often metaphorical and in no way necessitate literality.

Nearly no one is claiming someone definitely is or definitely isn't the dead sailor. Simply acknowledging possibilities. The only one who comse across as ignorant is the one who completely disregards the chance that something may be so, when there's at least some support for it.

[Courtland]

The only thing being ignored here is that prophecy's are often metaphorical and in no way necessitate literality.

Nearly no one is claiming someone definitely is or definitely isn't the dead sailor. Simply acknowledging possibilities. The only one who comse across as ignorant is the one who completely disregards the chance that something may be so, when there's at least some support for it.

My contention all along has been that the support for it being THAT PARTICULAR PERSON (Euron) would contradict other things in that VERY SAME Image. However the idea that the Corpses smiling Grey lips mean GreyJoy gives us several other non-contradictory, and thus more probable, possibilities: VIctarion, Theon, or heck the Generic "Man" could simply be meant to represent the ironfleet or the ironmen in general giving us some sort of a connection between Dany and them.

My only CLaim is that it is NOT evidence that Dany is going to marry Euron, and it is NOT supposed to SPECIFICALLY represent Euron because it looks all kinds of wrong. It can certainly reoresent the ironborn (being led by the Greyjoys), I just don't think there is any way to reconcile the contradictory appearance in the image with Euron.

Nor any need to, since we have other options.

Thats not ignorant, its called careful reading thank you kindly.

my $.10

[Guest rhaenys]

Y'know, maybe I should start a new thread on this, but it has been said before that Euron is probably acting at the behest of the Warlocks, right?

I mean, Dany has been warned that they are still after her and haven't really forgiven her for the whole firestorm incident, and then here comes Euron with blue lips and all, and with some crazy magic horn that might be from Valyria although Euron sure as hell hasn't ever been there...

I'm guessing that Euron, despite his horn, which might even actually control the dragons, is really, really bad news for Dany, and that all of this will go down in the next book (being ADwD, and all).

Anyway, I'd say that given all that Euron probably doesn't marry Dany, unless he does it by force somehow. I just hope we get to see his not-smiling eye before he inevitably flames out.

EDIT: I should say, that I think he probably will marry her, somewhat against her will.

[Jon Targaryen]

My main objection to the idea that the Corpse in the boat represents Euron is that it looks nothing like him. Every other depiction we have to a person in the visions looks like them at some point in the story. Grumpygoats response to this was to say that it wouldn't make sense (or be "literary", whatever) for Martin to describe The Man in the Boat (Euron) with blue lips and an Eye patch because that would give things away.

My arguement was that it wouldn't have. These visions were published in Clash of Kings before anyone knew that Euron had blue lips or wore an eye patch, thus though his description would have been very...vivid, it wouldn't have told us then who he was, we didn't have that information until "the arms of the Kraken" came out in Dragon magazine.

SO my central claim, again, is that if the man in the Boat is supposed to represent EURON he would have had to look a bit more like him.

He could be Euron. He definitely represents a Greyjoy. I think it is Euron because of his personality and because he controls the horn but it could be Victarion as I have said before.

The man in the boat might represent the IronBorn and Dany's anticipated contact with them more broadly (and thus the involvement of the Greyjoy's), but it cannot stand simply for EURON, or indicate to us that she will marry Euron.

It can stand for Euron since it does stand for a Greyjoy and Euron is a Greyjoy. It indicates she will marry him because it is in the "bride of fire" triplet.

That and his conspicuous LACK OF BLUE LIPS. Given that no one knew Euron Was drinking SHade of the evening when Clash came out Martin Had no reason or incentive to distort THE MOST DEFINING part of his appearance.

One word: symbolism. Once again, "grey lips smiling"=Greyjoy.

But a good third of the things described in her visions probably CAN'T come to pass, so why is it highly likely? ANd why are we assuming she will marry them?

Can you identify those things that won't come to pass, or, as you say, "probably can't"? We are assuming she will marry them because, once again, it is in the "bride of fire" triplet.

Your welcome to have "No DOubt", however that does not mean "Grey Lips SMiling SADLY" mean greyjoy, it just means that you think that it does. Of course you are still conveniently ignoring the fact that the smiling man is a CORPSE. Yes yes, I know the Ironborn drown their nobles. But we have also been told that they don't REALLY drown them, not the way the Damphair does. They Don't DIE and get recusitated.

"Grey lips smiling" does mean Greyjoy. I'm sorry if you can't see that. I did not ignore the fact that the man is a corpse. I already covered it with what you admit to, namely, that the followers of the Drowned God drown their followers. I also said it could be Theon since he seems to have been through a lot.

check it, almost evertime Davos is depicted as smiling in the books it has a sad or resigned tinge to it, especially since his sons died.

I'm sorry, I don't recall those. Could you cite them, please?

maybee it does, maybee not. My point was that its not clear enough to say it is a "clear reference to Drogo". Yes it was a wedding present to Dany, but if it represents her WEDDING to drogo, then in a larger sense it represents, in no particular order: Her coming of age, her freedom from Viserys, her starting on her quest to retake the throne of westeros, or the first step necessary to awaken her dragons. my point was that its meaning and significance is highly debateable and unclear.

It comes in the "bride of fire" triplet. I think it represents her marriage to Drogo in that specific instance. Her silver, within the story, at the time it comes into the story, could represent all you say.

I am not maintaining that the man in the boat CAN'T represent A greyjoy, or even some GreyJoy involvement. What I am maintaining, based on the way Martin has depicted EVERY OTHER SIGNIFICANT CHARACTER IN PROPHECY is that the CORPSE in the boat does not represent Euron, either PRIMARILY or SOLEY.

I do not discount that it could represent A greyjoy, or the Ironfleet, or victarion, or Theon, (though I think the 2nd is most likely). I am just saying that at some point parabolic symbolism and ones actual appearance have to mesh and the man in the boat is described as LACKING TWO major identifying features of Euron.

1. The Eye patch, or lacking that his "Crows Eye" that looks so different

2. His HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT Blue Lips.

Based on this reasoning, it seems that the third thing in Dany's bride of fire vision, the third groom, is a blue flower in a wall of ice. It can't be Jon because it lacks Jon's identifying features, of, ummm, a body. Again, symbolism.

ANd again, nothing about the vision, even its placement, implies that the man will be a groom.

It is placed in the "bride of fire" vision. That implies husband.

I just really think that this Theory is ignoring all the REALLY OBVIOUS problems it has and its adherents are trying to Bend over backwards to explain away inconsistencies rather than admit them. People have been theorizing it would be a greyjoy, and maybee even Euron since long before the arms of the kraken came out (heck, even before SoS came out) and when it did, Eurons appearance should have blown that theory out of the water, but rather than revise or re-think some people say "its a prophecy, never mind the inconsistencies..."

The lips are symbolic of a Greyjoy. Before AOTK, most people thought it was "some Greyjoy." We didn't have any basis for it to be anyone specific. After AOTK came out, people started gravitating toward Euron because he knew about Dany, had the dragon horn, and became the king. After AFFC came out, people shifted to Victarion because he was going to Dany and wanted to take her for himself. If you want a revision, let's just say it seems Euron or Victarion are the likeliest candidates now.

[Red Rex]

I have re-read the house of the undying prophecies 3 times in the last 2 days and listened to them on audio once.

now thats dedication to gaining a full perspective of what your being told, very commendable

[jon tarkaryen]

I have re-read the house of the undying prophecies 3 times in the last 2 days and listened to them on audio once.

That is why I say there is nothing in them to particularly make us think that she will marry the man in the boat.

Yes, I caught, the first time around the bit about Dany being kidnaped and forced to marry blah blah blah. But that whole idea has more holes in it than swiss cheese. Dany is in Meereen at the moment, surrounded by her own people and councilers with more on the way. yes, most of the ironfleet is on its way to Dany, but I find it highly unlikely that they will be ABLE to kidnapp her, let alone her highly unruly and destructive dragons, no matter what they want.

How easy of a time do you think they are going to have FORCING the dragons onto WOODEN SHIPS to get them back to westeros right now given what we know of the situation from DwD spoilers? About none. If Euron was on a ship heading for Meereen , I would probably be a lot closer to being with you on that one, but your theory supposes that she and her fire-breathing dragons get KIDNAPED out from under the noses of her people and DRAGGED back to WESTEROS on WOODEN SHIPS, just so she can get to Euron to make the rest of it possible.

Thats the reason I totally discounted the bit about her being kidnapped. Honestly Victarion would have a much easier (though still improbable) chance of TALKING Dany into coming with him once her dragons were under control, which is probably going to be the biggest stumbling block to her getting back to westeros as it is; she needs to get them in hand.

my $.10

Its never said that Dany will marry dead sailor.but keep in mind prophercy(which is clearly refearing to Greyjoy) and keep in mind situation now.We know that there is one Greyjoy sailing to Dany at the moment and he will be of great value to her(beacuse of his ships he desperatly needs).Now is that Greyjoy Euron or Victarion I dont know.But its posible that it will be both of them.First Victarion,and then Euron will kill him,and marry Dany,no metter will she want that or not.

[Errant Bard]

"Grey lips smiling" does mean Greyjoy.

"Grey lips smiling" could mean Greyjoy. There is a difference, it is not as clear cut as you make it sound, unless you got direct spoilers from the author.

And also, you focus on the lips, but what about the eyes, what's their symbolism in relation to Greyjoys?

[Jon Targaryen]

"Grey lips smiling" could mean Greyjoy. There is a difference, it is not as clear cut as you make it sound, unless you got direct spoilers from the author.

I'm not 100% positive on it but I am about as close as you can get without going there. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course.

And also, you focus on the lips, but what about the eyes, what's their symbolism in relation to Greyjoys?

I don't know. Do you have any ideas?

[jon tarkaryen]

"Grey lips smiling" could mean Greyjoy. There is a difference, it is not as clear cut as you make it sound, unless you got direct spoilers from the author.

And also, you focus on the lips, but what about the eyes, what's their symbolism in relation to Greyjoys?

was eyes even mentioned?

I cant remember that bit.

[Jon Targaryen]

was eyes even mentioned?

I cant remember that bit.

The relevant quote is "eyes bright."

[jon tarkaryen]

The relevant quote is "eyes bright."

well that can also be Euron; he is mentioned as having blue blue eyes,oftenly bright of laugh,something like that.

[Jon Targaryen]

well that can also be Euron; he is mentioned as having blue blue eyes,oftenly bright of laugh,something like that.

Yes, one eye at least is blue. I don't know though. Errant Bard may be on to something asking for symbolism. I just don't know if we can pin down what it symbolizes yet.

[Errant Bard]

As far as symbolism goes, I didn't really give a thought to it, so far I interpreted the line as describing a real corpse aboard a real ship.

To me, if we stray from a literal interpretation, the line is too vague and could mean anything, look at what it means for you: the corpse word would represent a symbolic death, yet the words "gray lips" would not represent a state of mind but would rather be a play on words with nothing symbolic... For all we know the "bright eyes" part may refer to physical eyes, if we go that way, or it could mean someone under the others spell/working for the others.

Who knows... as I say, it's too vague, and I refuse to say such and such interpretation is the one until proved by Martin. Even with R+L=J -> blue rose on a wall of ice -> Jon will marry Dany, there is nothing certain, even if it seems too good to be coincidental.

[Guest rhaenys]

Has anyone thought that maybe Euron Greyjoy DIDN'T HAVE BLUE LIPS at the time of the prophecy? I mean, he wasn't born with them, right?

See my earlier post for more explanation.

[Errant Bard]

The color of his real lips isn't that important, you know he wasn't a real corpse either at the time of the prophecy, if it's him.

But anyway, the visions were not in real-time so the "time of the prophecy" is not relevant.

[Guest rhaenys]

The color of his real lips isn't that important, you know he wasn't a real corpse either at the time of the prophecy, if it's him.

But anyway, the visions were not in real-time so the "time of the prophecy" is not relevant.

On the unimportance of lip color:

I thought there was an argument that the prophecy would have shown blue lips if Euron was indicated since Euron had not been introduced to us and this detail wouldn't give him away, and blue lips are a defining feature of Euron.

On "real" corpses:

Being kind of dead in the future is a little more significant that having blue lips. Honestly, I'm not sure how to treat the corpse thing.

On real-time:

Who knows how prophecy works in ASOIAF? And anyways, prophecies kind of manage to be about the future, right? Hmmm...you're going to have to explain to me how prophecies that have no link to real-time coincidentally only have relevance to events that occur after the real-time present that the prophecies are being seen in. Good luck.

Anyway, overall, it seems like the Warlocks sent Euron back to Westeros with the intent that he get Dany and control her dragons. Seems also like Euron is becoming a warlock, hence his now, but not always blue-lipness, and maybe even corpseification (although I'm guessing it really refers to his impending death as a result of those actions, not his already deadness).

The prophecy was maybe only a prophecy of Euron coming for Dany generally, and the details of how it is happening now, i.e. at the behest of the warlocks, may be more specific than the general prophecy.

[Errant Bard]

Now that I think about it, it could match Euron, she see him dead, ressurected by the Others of Valyria (where did he get his "non-smiling" eye and what is it anyway), and sailing back from that. And the vision indicates he will play a role in her future.

but as I said, it could as well represent something as unexpected as Brienne, hanged by the brotherhood, ressurected by Uncat, and on a mission to get back Arya. After all, Martin insisted about her luminous eyes, she would be a corpse, she would have a reason to sail, and the sad smile would be about her loss.

It could really mean anything.

Hey, while we are in crackpot-land, about Euron + Asshai, it could be that he became an undying, hence the corpse in the vision. If it's him.

Edit: Just reread the text of the prophecy, and I wonder how you equate sad smile with joy (for the greyjoy play on word), a sad smile shows everything but that.

Removed the part about the vision all being of the past after the reread, too, I was dead wrong.

[Guest rhaenys]

but as I said, it could as well represent something as unexpected as Brienne, hanged by the brotherhood, ressurected by Uncat, and on a mission to get back Arya. After all, Martin insisted about her luminous eyes, she would be a corpse, she would have a reason to sail, and the sad smile would be about her loss.

Yes, but it is strange that the prophecy is Dany's, Dany has dragons, Euron has a horn that supposedly controls dragons, and Victorian is on his way over to get Dany (for Euron, or himself). For myself, it think it's Euron or Victorian. After all, there is no reason to pointlessly multiply explanations when there is a simple one right in front of us. Except for that sad smile thing - that's throwing me for a loop...

Anyway, regardless of the prophecy, I don't think the idea that Euron is going to get Dany for the Warlocks is crackpot. I mean, they're sending somebody or something after her, since she is continually warned about it, and Euron seems the most likely suspect.

[roeh61]

is it possible that GRRM introduces us to a horn that does nothing but kills the poor SOB that blows in it? How do they know the horn can control dragons, just because he claims to have found it near Valyria?