Literary Irony of Jaime and Cersei being Targs

[A Song of Hound and Wolves]

I would just love for Tyrion to be Tywin's only child and to gain Casterly Rock. Just for the simple fact that Tywin didn't want him to have it. Also because Cersei feels she should have it. I want her to be the Queen of ash and dirt. Lady of rot and garbage. She deserves no happiness.

"the queen of slime, the queen of filth, the queen of puuuuuuutresence"?

[The Summer Islander]

Wow. No love for Cersei. I hear ya

None. Zero. Zip. Nada. She is a great bad villian. She is entertaining. But she is just awful. Not trying to start a why I hate Cersei thread. But she's just awful.

[Jolene Brown]

Also, Jaime's vision of his mother at the end of AFFC implies that Tywin is his father. She says things like (I'm conglomerating some dialogue together), "Did you ever really know him truly? He hated to be laughed at, that was the one thing he hated most. He wanted you and Cercei to be so brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at you," etc... It's clear she's talking about Tywin. I don't see him having a dream/vision like this if there was any ambiguity over his parentage. The dreams Ned and Jon have often make it clear that there is some issue about who Jon truly is.

Which is not even to mention the weirwood stump dream, with all the Lannisters and Tywin and Cercei, all under Casterly Rock, which is "his place."

[Aeneys]

None. Zero. Zip. Nada. She is a great bad villian. She is entertaining. But she is just awful. Not trying to start a why I hate Cersei thread. But she's just awful.

Yup. Her chapters are the most fun to read because she is in-sane! I can't feel bad for her.

[The Summer Islander]

Yup. Her chapters are the most fun to read because she is in-sane! I can't feel bad for her.

Yes. I read her chapters and I laugh. Its like Im watching a sitcom. She just does not understand subtlety and her "plots and schemes" are just past silly.

[Cliche Guevara]

But from a plot perspective there is far more reason for Tyrion to be the Targ.

"For a moment Tyrion cast a shadow tall as a king." Jon's chapter in GoT.

He has pale blond hair, instead of the Lannister gold.

Tywin even expressed direct doubts as to whether he was truly his son. Why would he do that, besmirching the honor of the wife he loved so dearly, unless she had no choice in the matter. And who could possibly force himself onto the wife of a High Lord, except the King?

Furthermore, Tyrion is the one associated with Dragons, with Dragon dreams and an irresistable attraction to them. Come on, he is at the point of actually getting a dragon of his own in Meereen. Jaime and Cersei have no plot reason to ever be in that situation.

Let's face it, Tyrion's been set up for this, whereas the Lannister twins have not.

Yeah, I see how him being in meereen and having the dragon obsession points in that direction plot-wise. I guess i dont see the whole three heads = three dragon riders thing playing out that neatly though.

Tywin's feelings towards his kids is exactly what makes the twins being the targs so juicy though. Tyrion being his only actual offspring is just so ironic and twisted and perfect for all the reasons already stated that I can't help but believe it.

[Free Northman]

Also, Jaime's vision of his mother at the end of AFFC implies that Tywin is his father. She says things like (I'm conglomerating some dialogue together), "Did you ever really know him truly? He hated to be laughed at, that was the one thing he hated most. He wanted you and Cercei to be so brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at you," etc... It's clear she's talking about Tywin. I don't see him having a dream/vision like this if there was any ambiguity over his parentage. The dreams Ned and Jon have often make it clear that there is some issue about who Jon truly is.

Which is not even to mention the weirwood stump dream, with all the Lannisters and Tywin and Cercei, all under Casterly Rock, which is "his place."

While I fully believe Jaime and Cersei are Tywins children, I don't think that dream scene proves it. In fact, it could be argued that the reason Joanna cries when Jaime tells her that he is a Knight and that Cersei is a queen, is that Joanna knows they are not Tywins children, hence Tywin didn't achieve his dream.

That COULD be one interpretation, but my interpretation is that instead the reason she cries is because Jaime is a disgrace of a knight and she knows that Cersei will soon be queen no longer.

[Jolene Brown]

But for me the tone of it is first, "you think you understand your father, but you don't really get him," and then, "your father would be so disappointed if he understood how differently things have turned out for you then what he wanted." The tone is all about how sad it is that Jaime and Tywin couldn't really get their relationship together, not how sad it is that Tywin is secretly not his father.

[Free Northman]

But for me the tone of it is first, "you think you understand your father, but you don't really get him," and then, "your father would be so disappointed if he understood how differently things have turned out for you then what he wanted." The tone is all about how sad it is that Jaime and Tywin couldn't really get their relationship together, not how sad it is that Tywin is secretly not his father.

I support that interpretation. But all I'm saying is that that is not the only interpretation of that scene, and therefore I would not use that as evidence for Jaime being Tywin's son.

I think that there has not been sufficient build up to Jaime not being Tywin's son in the books to date, and hence any such revelation would look very contrived, should it occur say in the next book or two.

Tyrion on the other hand would fit such a scenario perfectly, and make people go "AHA, now it all makes sense", rather than "WTF? Where did THAT come from?"

[J. Stargaryen]

I think it may be prudent to ask, not if, but which of Cersei & Jaime or Tyrion were fathered by Aerys II. Given the amount of clues, it seems as if we are meant to be asking this very question.

I'm firmly in the Cersei and Jaime camp, myself.

[Nausicaä]

Haha. Maybe, for all we know.

I think George is very careful when he describes characters physically. Sometimes a trait (eye color, hair color, features) are described in a way for the reader to make a connection between a character and another. I believe it is in George’s literary style to plant some evidence through physicality, something for a smart reader to pick up on, but not too obvious. I think it is out of George’s style to overlook this.

The queen was drinking heavily, but the wine only seemed to make her more beautiful; her cheeks were flushed, and her eyes had a bright, feverish heat to them as she looked down over the hall. Eyes of wildfire, Sansa thought.

Does this not count, in your opinion?

Martin meant for the reader to make a connection between Cersei and Joffrey and Aerys through all kinds of descriptions. It's up for interpretation whether it's meant to show them as his true successors in spirit or both in spirit and in blood, but it's there.

Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys. She never forgets a slight, real or imagined.

Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted…

"Let all of King's Landings see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies."

"Now you sound like Aerys"

Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. "The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while"

Jaime knew the look in his sister's eyes. He had seen it before, most recently on the night of Tommen's wedding, when she burned the Tower of the Hand. The green light of the wildfire had bathed the face of the watchers, so they looked like nothing so much as rotting corpses, a pack of gleeful ghouls, but some of the corpses were prettier than others. Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She'd stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said. The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him.

Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat, Jaime remembered, studying his sister’s smile. Let him be the king of ashes

"I could have your tongue out for saying that," the boy king said, reddening. "I'm the king."

<...>

Lord Tywin ignored that; it was Joffrey he addressed. "Aerys also felt the need to remind men that he was king. And he was passing fond of ripping tongues out as well. You could ask Ser Ilyn Payne about that, though you’ll get no reply.”

"You can't talk to me that way. The king can do as he likes."

"Aerys Targaryen did as he liked."

"I did not fight a war to seat Robert the Second on the Iron Throne."

"Not Robert the Second," Tyrion said. "Aerys the Third."

Joffrey lurched to his feet. “I’m king! Kill him! Kill him now! I command it.” He chopped down with his hand, a furious, angry gesture … and screeched in pain when his arm brushed against one of the sharp metal fangs that surrounded him. The bright crimson samite of his sleeve turned a darker shade of red as his blood soaked through it. “Mother!” he wailed.

It was Aerys Targaryen he saw, pacing alone in his throne room, picking at his scabbed and bleeding hands. The fool was always cutting himself on the blades and barbs of the Iron Throne.

Yet still the blades tormented him, the ones he could never escape, the blades of the Iron Throne. His arms and legs were always covered with scabs and half-healed cuts.

[The Summer Islander]

Does this not count, in your opinion?

Martin meant for the reader to make a connection between Cersei and Joffrey and Aerys through all kinds of descriptions. It's up for interpretation whether it's meant to show them as his true successors in spirit or both in spirit and in blood, but it's there.

Good stuff.

[Aeneys]

That's certainly a lot of proof that Cersei is insane, like Aerys.

Would someone point out the Targaryen references for Jaime? I'm curious.

[The Summer Islander]

That's certainly a lot of proof that Cersei is insane, like Aerys.

Would someone point out the Targaryen references for Jaime? I'm curious.

well maybethere are no hints for Jaime. He and Cersei are twins afterall. Maybe he's his mothers son. Just plain old Jaime who was caught in the middle of things and kinda became jaded by his situation. Plus Tywin is not exactly the worlds greatest dad or person so of course he had an effect on Jaime and how he turned out he did raise him not Aerys. Maybe the self analyzing person Jaime has become is the kinda person Johanna was. One twin comes out like one parent and one twin like the other.

[Sterling]

I feel like there is a lot of evidence behind R+L=J. That being said, there is some evidence as well that could be used to back up Jaime and Cersei being Targs as well. However, if Jon is revealed as a Targ, and then all of a sudden so are Jaime and Cersei, the twist wouldn't be "oh my god, xxxx is a Targaryan and that changes everything! mind blown!" It would be more like "wow Rhaegar had a lot of kids we didn't know about, I wonder what this means."

What I mean is that Jon being a Targ makes more sense and could mean a lot more (him being AA), but Jaime and Cersei actually being Targs would be, to me, not a worthy plot twist, especially with so little evidence/foreshadowing.

Also, how could Jaime and Cersei EVER be revealed as Targs? I mean Joanna, Tywin, and Aerys are all dead, and I wouldn't think there would be anyone else who would know the truth.

[Aeneys]

There are certainly many similarities in personality between Aerys and Cersei - which is why it's so fun to read her chapters. I just don't think that is proof of her being Aerys' daughter. I thought we already established that madness and pyromania are not genetic. The similar psychoticness of Cersei and Aerys is definetly there for a reason, I grant you. But I am not convinced it's a family tie.

Again, if someone can point to references between Targs and Jaime, that would be interesting. I don't have my books with me so I can't check. (And I don't think Genna's quote is enough to support that Jaime is not Tywin's son, because she points out Jaime's similarities to other Lannisters).

[Maia]

1. The Targaryen traits have been largely passed down due to inbreeding. So yeah, their physical traits will be passed on. But we have multiple instances, when Targs produced outside of their family, of the Targ looks faltering: Baelor Breakspear, Bittersteel, Rhaenys, Jon, etc.

Which is really consistent with Targ looks being dominant, no? Because, as we now know Targs weren't _that_ inbred, what with Arryns, Martells and doubtlessly whoever Egg and Jahaerys II married "for love" being part of the package, yet all the kings had the patent "Targ" look. Genetic dominance would be the only thing that could explain it.

Just because iRL there are no dominant blond/purple eyed genes in humans doesn't mean that in alternate reality there couldn't be. White fur _is_ dominant in certain species of animals, after all.

Lannisters, OTOH, have the normal RL-type blondness that gets overpowered by Frey mousey-brown, among other things ;).

Anyway, I don't believe that Jaime and Cersei could be Aerys's. Tyrion, though... I am fairly sure that he is. Dragon dreams FTW!

P.S. Cersei seemed rather impressed by Aerys and how things were done under him during her time at court. She seemed to be emulating him quite a bit since AGOT - pushing for Arya's hand being hacked off, wanting to rip out tongues, etc.

[J. Stargaryen]

Which is really consistent with Targ looks being dominant, no? Because, as we now know Targs weren't _that_ inbred, what with Arryns, Martells and doubtlessly whoever Egg and Jahaerys II married "for love" being part of the package, yet all the kings had the patent "Targ" look. Genetic dominance would be the only thing that could explain it.

Just because iRL there are no dominant blond/purple eyed genes in humans doesn't mean that in alternate reality there couldn't be. White fur _is_ dominant in certain species of animals, after all.

Lannisters, OTOH, have the normal RL-type blondness that gets overpowered by Frey mousey-brown, among other things ;).

Anyway, I don't believe that Jaime and Cersei could be Aerys's. Tyrion, though... I am fairly sure that he is. Dragon dreams FTW!

P.S. Cersei seemed rather impressed by Aerys and how things were done under him during her time at court. She seemed to be emulating him quite a bit since AGOT - pushing for Arya's hand being hacked off, wanting to rip out tongues, etc.

If George's goal was to maintain any secret-Targaryen mystery it would seem to be a necessary precondition that the offspring in question inherit its coloring from the non-Targaryen parent. For example, add silver hair and purple eyes to what we already know of Cersei & Jaime and their parentage isn't much of a mystery, even in Westeros. Or, imagine how much more obvious R+L=J would be if Jon had Targaryen coloring.

[moe.]

i just always thought the thing with Gemma was meant like. Tyrion is the one she was talking about. Because he is so much like his father. While Jaime is rash and acts without thinking (unlike Tywin), Tyrion is the opposite. Tyrion acts like his father. He is calm, cool, and collected. He is great with strategy and thinks things out. He is similar to Tywin in all these ways, where Jaime is not.

I never thought there was anything more to that

[Aeneys]

i just always thought the thing with Gemma was meant like. Tyrion is the one she was talking about. Because he is so much like his father. While Jaime is rash and acts without thinking (unlike Tywin), Tyrion is the opposite. Tyrion acts like his father. He is calm, cool, and collected. He is great with strategy and thinks things out. He is similar to Tywin in all these ways, where Jaime is not.

I never thought there was anything more to that

Agreed