Literary Irony of Jaime and Cersei being Targs

[Faint]

I've always been very fond of this theory and I do think it has a lot of groundwork going for it. The problem lies in how anybody in the story could ever come to know that Cersei and Jaime are Aerys' children. There is no obvious candidate to fill the role of a Howland Reed like figure, or someone like Wylla or Ashara Dayne. Anybody like that would be coming out of woodwork, with no setup or expectation and no foreshadowing.

[Nausicaä]

That's certainly a lot of proof that Cersei is insane, like Aerys.

Would someone point out the Targaryen references for Jaime? I'm curious.

I'm too lazy to write it out atm, but I found a great post that lists some references for Jaime. It's here. I think the first point is the most striking.

Also, it's not on that list, but I couldn't help but make a connection between those descriptions of Jaime and Aerys as "beasts".

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon’s High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

By the end the Mad King had become so fearful that he would allow no blade in his presence, save for the swords his Kingsguard wore. His beard was matted and unwashed, his hair a silver-gold tangle that reached his waist, his fingernails cracked yellow claws nine inches long.

Jaime Lannister had been allowed no razor since the night he was taken in the Whispering Wood, and a shaggy beard covered his face, once so like the queen’s. Glinting gold in the lamplight, the whiskers made him look like some great yellow beast, magnificent even in chains. His unwashed hair fell to his shoulders in ropes and tangles, the clothes were rotting on his body, his face was pale and wasted… and even so, the power and the beauty of the man were still apparent.

Does anybody else see it?

[Jolene Brown]

By great yellow beast, they mean a lion... like a Lannister

[Aeneys]

I'm too lazy to write it out atm, but I found a great post that lists some references for Jaime. It's here. I think the first point is the most striking.

Thanks! They help.

Interesting list of quotes. However unconvincing, IMO.

[Nausicaä]

By great yellow beast, they mean a lion... like a Lannister

...That's pretty obvious, but she didn't use the word "lion", she used the word "beast". I think the exact language used invokes some similar imagery and contrast — Aerys was pathetic and how he looked only reflected how weak and unworthy as a king he was, while Jaime looks powerful and magnificent, like a king, even when he's all dirty and unkempt.

[Jolene Brown]

...That's pretty obvious, but she didn't use the word "lion", she used the word "beast". I think the exact language used invokes some similar imagery and contrast — Aerys was pathetic and how he looked only reflected how weak and unworthy as a king he was, while Jaime looks powerful and magnificent, like a king, even when he's all dirty and unkempt.

It's an interesting comparison, it just seems like very poor evidence for Jaime being a Targaryan. The lion imagery is reflective of his being a Lannister.

[The Mother of The Others]

The problem lies in how anybody in the story could ever come to know that Cersei and Jaime are Aerys' children. There is no obvious candidate to fill the role of a Howland Reed like figure

then use a device. give Jaime his hand back as an unmistakeable sign that Jaime is the promised dragon, the one Rheagar had been striving to whelp with Lyanna (?) Stark's help. If it's apparent to people that he's the PTWP, then by default he'd also have to be a Targaryen.

[Nausicaä]

It's an interesting comparison, it just seems like very poor evidence for Jaime being a Targaryan. The lion imagery is reflective of his being a Lannister.

Yeah, I agree, it would hold no water on it's own. I just think there's a lot of evidence for A+J=J&C in general.

[Elba the Intoner]

But from a plot perspective there is far more reason for Tyrion to be the Targ.

"For a moment Tyrion cast a shadow tall as a king." Jon's chapter in GoT.

He has pale blond hair, instead of the Lannister gold.

Tywin even expressed direct doubts as to whether he was truly his son. Why would he do that, besmirching the honor of the wife he loved so dearly, unless she had no choice in the matter. And who could possibly force himself onto the wife of a High Lord, except the King?

Furthermore, Tyrion is the one associated with Dragons, with Dragon dreams and an irresistable attraction to them. Come on, he is at the point of actually getting a dragon of his own in Meereen. Jaime and Cersei have no plot reason to ever be in that situation.

Let's face it, Tyrion's been set up for this, whereas the Lannister twins have not.

But some of these arguments hold true for Jaime as well. For ex., when Jon first sees Jaime at Winterfell he thinks that Jaime is the one who looks most like what a king should look like. Also, in that scene where they first arrive in Winterfell, back in AGOT, Jaime is wearing Targ colors, red and black, not the red and gold Lannister colors or his Kingsguard clothes.

When Jaime gets back to King's Landing in ASOS and meets with Tywin, Twyin wants Jaime to leave the KG and go back to take over Casterly Rock. When Jaime refuses Tywin says to him "you are no son of mine" or something close to that.

Also, if anyone has read the Hedge Knight, there's a big hint there as well. Daemon (or is it Daeron? Can't remember atm) the Targ Prince says to Dunk, who seems to be a Brienne parallel, "I dreamed of you" which is the same thing Jaime says to Brienne.

[Elba the Intoner]

I'm too lazy to write it out atm, but I found a great post that lists some references for Jaime. It's here. I think the first point is the most striking.

Also, it's not on that list, but I couldn't help but make a connection between those descriptions of Jaime and Aerys as "beasts".

Does anybody else see it?

Yes, I'm with you :thumbsup:

[Jolene Brown]

I didn't find any of the evidence on the list quoted up-thread convincing either; I think most of the evidence for the theory involves ignoring the plain common sense meaning of various paragraphs for a much less likely interpretation - however, I will say that there was one thing mentioned on one of the other million threads devoted to this topic that gave me pause, and that was when Cat observes Jaime in the Whispering Wood and from above, either the shadows or gathering gloom or whatever (don't have book with me), turns his gold hair to silver and his crimson cloak to black. That observation made me very nervous, as a Jaime/Cercei as Targ theory hater. But I still don't think it's going to happen. And if does, GRRM better be prepared for some very very very strongly worded emails. From me. For the next 10 years.

[BondJamesBond]

That observation made me very nervous, as a Jaime/Cercei as Targ theory hater. But I still don't think it's going to happen. And if does, GRRM better be prepared for some very very very strongly worded emails. From me. For the next 10 years.

I'm sure GRRM will do it well, whatever he decides.

[A Song of Hound and Wolves]

Does this not count, in your opinion?

Martin meant for the reader to make a connection between Cersei and Joffrey and Aerys through all kinds of descriptions. It's up for interpretation whether it's meant to show them as his true successors in spirit or both in spirit and in blood, but it's there.

wow, nice summary. thanks. :thumbsup:

Good stuff.

:agree:

I've always been very fond of this theory and I do think it has a lot of groundwork going for it. The problem lies in how anybody in the story could ever come to know that Cersei and Jaime are Aerys' children. There is no obvious candidate to fill the role of a Howland Reed like figure, or someone like Wylla or Ashara Dayne. Anybody like that would be coming out of woodwork, with no setup or expectation and no foreshadowing.

You are right. Which raises an interesting side question: do we really believe that GRRM is going to answer every question in the last book? I don't know if that would be fulfilling. I think he might leave more hints along the way and in the end, there might remain several answers that we can ponder and debate ad infinitum. I guess I'm okay with that. But I admit that I'm one of those people who hope that God will reveal all to us at the end of the world. Then I'll know who stole my purse 10 years ago, what the heck Jeff ______ was thinking our sophomore year of college and what really happened to the Lost Colony of Roanoke. :lol:

Also, if anyone has read the Hedge Knight, there's a big hint there as well. Daemon (or is it Daeron? Can't remember atm) the Targ Prince says to Dunk, who seems to be a Brienne parallel, "I dreamed of you" which is the same thing Jaime says to Brienne.

good catch, I had missed that.

[Currawong]

Sorry, I just don't buy this theory at all. The books would just become one long saga of known and secret bastard children.

We have quite enough of them already - Targs, Baratheons, Lannisters, Boltons, and so on - without adding Cersei and Jaime. Boring, and a completely over-used plot device.

[Faint]

You are right. Which raises an interesting side question: do we really believe that GRRM is going to answer every question in the last book? I don't know if that would be fulfilling. I think he might leave more hints along the way and in the end, there might remain several answers that we can ponder and debate ad infinitum. I guess I'm okay with that. But I admit that I'm one of those people who hope that God will reveal all to us at the end of the world. Then I'll know who stole my purse 10 years ago, what the heck Jeff ______ was thinking our sophomore year of college and what really happened to the Lost Colony of Roanoke. :lol:

I'm sure he'll leave some stuff unanswered but if the twins are truly Targaryen bastards, I have to believe he'll end up leaving a whole lot more clues.

[Crystal Grower]

Incest is not hereditary.

If the inability to form the Westermarck effect is hereditary, then incest will likely occur due to Genetic Sexual Attraction. So the lack of aversion/attraction to sibling incest might well be hereditary in Targaryens.

[Elba the Intoner]

good catch, I had missed that.

Thanks! Yeah that was a big "whoa" moment for me when I read that.

So, I'd like to go back to the inital question of this thread for a moment, which is the literary irony of Jaime and Cersei being Targs (regardless of whether we actually believe it or not or like it or not), and there's a couple of good ones that come to mind off the top of my head. First, the obvious one that Jaime actually killed his father. So, when Aerys commanded Jaime in the throne room to bring him his father's head, Jaime actually did just that.

Also, Jaime mentions that when the others came in to find him standing over Aerys's body, they questioned him about who should they put on the throne now. Jaime thinks about Viserys and I think also Aegon, Rhaegar's son, and thinks not them because they have Aerys's blood in them. But, if the twins are really Aerys's children, then the irony is that by putting Joffrey and Tommen on the throne Jaime has done exactly what he didn't want to do - put someone on the throne with Aerys's blood in them.

[A Song of Hound and Wolves]

Thanks! Yeah that was a big "whoa" moment for me when I read that.

So, I'd like to go back to the inital question of this thread for a moment, which is the literary irony of Jaime and Cersei being Targs (regardless of whether we actually believe it or not or like it or not), and there's a couple of good ones that come to mind off the top of my head. First, the obvious one that Jaime actually killed his father. So, when Aerys commanded Jaime in the throne room to bring him his father's head, Jaime actually did just that.

Also, Jaime mentions that when the others came in to find him standing over Aerys's body, they questioned him about who should they put on the throne now. Jaime thinks about Viserys and I think also Aegon, Rhaegar's son, and thinks not them because they have Aerys's blood in them. But, if the twins are really Aerys's children, then the irony is that by putting Joffrey and Tommen on the throne Jaime has done exactly what he didn't want to do - put someone on the throne with Aerys's blood in them.

Okay, you win. THAT would be irony. It would also make ASoIaF a modern Greek tragedy.

[Mathieu Thielemans]

First off, to the "gene"-subject, it's just as Jon Arryn said. "The seed is strong". Lannister-genes would dominate targs, yet not completely ofcourse, that's not how genetics work. You'd get lannistersbabies, with a hint of the Targ-features.

[amazingoopah]

what would be hilarious is that Aerys somehow legitimized Jaime before his death, and if Jon is dead, AND Aegon is either a fake or real but killed, then Jaime would be the heir to the Iron Throne... :)