Best trained soldiers?

[sunxiaohu]

You said it "with the right tactics". The Dothraki will always attack, even if the odds are against them. They dont believe in armour or hiding behind something like Storms End. Experienced commanders like Stannis and Ned would know to exploit their weaknesses. They may be better fighters and riders but their tactics are woeful.

Stannis and Ned never had to face Dothraki before, how can you be sure they would know what to do? And we haven't had a description of actual battle tactics before, so the assumption that the Dorthraki would simply charge headlong into battle is a bad one. From the descriptions of their culture, and the real world cultures GRRM said he based Dothraki society upon (Mongol, Sioux, Turkish), I think they would use quite advance light cavalry tactics that Westerosi armies would have trouble countering.

And I think the Dothraki's hesitance to engage in seiges is as much a recognition of their own weaknesses as it is a matter of honor. Better to slaughter the enemy's people and pillage the undefended land while the army sits behind castle walls. When the enemy finally do emerge, the Dothraki will slaughter them in the field.

[sunxiaohu]

You could always do the agincourt trick of placing stakes in front of your archers. Dothraki charge, halted.

Dothraki would just use their bows then. Or feint a charge to cover flanking maneuvers.

[The Promised Prince]

English longbows were 6 feet long and were fired in volleys of about 6-7 per minute. This was only in the initial stage of a battle, when massed volleys were fired into the masses of oncoming troops. Once an archer started tiring (the shoulders, arm and particularly the fingers drawing the heavy bow became strained with repeated volleys), the rate declined as the archers picked off individual targets instead of firing massed volleys.

Apparently, archers were issued about 60-72 arrows each at the start of a battle. So they were probably expected to fire at least that many arrows before collapsing from exhaustion.

I don't think they could fire more than 10 arrows in an open field. By the time they release their first the dothraki is already charging at them at full speed on horseback, of course westerosi archers would only release their first arrows when the dothraki enters the longbows' effective range which is about 160 meters which is a very short distance for any man to reach while on horseback plus once the westerosi archers are in range of them the dothraki of course would release their own volley of arrows.

[sunxiaohu]

Actually the Dothraki are fashioned from the Mongols and huns, so yes they might be as skilled as the mongols.

If I could add to that, GRRM has also stated that some aspects of Dothraki culture were based on Native American plains societies, hence the disdain for armor.

[The Promised Prince]

Also, Longbowmen were usually deployed primarily on the flanks, sometimes to the front. Well, Dothraki outriders are expert flankers / anti-flank riders.

[Free Northman]

I don't think they could fire more than 10 arrows in an open field. By the time they release their first the dothraki is already charging at them at full speed on horseback, of course westerosi archers would only release their first arrows when the dothraki enters the longbows' effective range which is about 160 meters which is a very short distance for any man to reach while on horseback plus once the westerosi archers are in range of them the dothraki of course would release their own volley of arrows.

Sure. I imagine about 2 volleys before the two armies engage. But that's where the ring of steel comes in. Heavy shields and armored knights to protect the archers in the middle, while they pick off Dothraki horses.

Anyway, this is all conjecture. If I had to fight the Dothraki, though, that's how I would do it. Maybe it works, maybe it doesnt.

[Batman]

Stannis and Ned never had to face Dothraki before, how can you be sure they would know what to do? And we haven't had a description of actual battle tactics before, so the assumption that the Dorthraki would simply charge headlong into battle is a bad one. From the descriptions of their culture, and the real world cultures GRRM said he based Dothraki society upon (Mongol, Sioux, Turkish), I think they would use quite advance light cavalry tactics that Westerosi armies would have trouble countering.

And I think the Dothraki's hesitance to engage in seiges is as much a recognition of their own weaknesses as it is a matter of honor. Better to slaughter the enemy's people and pillage the undefended land while the army sits behind castle walls. When the enemy finally do emerge, the Dothraki will slaughter them in the field.

Ned and Stannis have won many battles by using the enemies offense against them. The Dothraki are notorious for not being cautious. They charged into the unsullied when they could have easily outflanked them and were crushed for it. The refuse to acknowledge siege warfare as a tactic and instead view it was cowardice. Stannis and Ned know that a man on a wall is worth many more than those beneath it. Luring the Dothraki towards a stronghold with archers and boiling oil is not an unreasonable tactic.

[Free Northman]

Ned and Stannis have won many battles by using the enemies offense against them. The Dothraki are notorious for not being cautious. They charged into the unsullied when they could have easily outflanked them and were crushed for it. The refuse to acknowledge siege warfare as a tactic and instead view it was cowardice. Stannis and Ned know that a man on a wall is worth many more than those beneath it. Luring the Dothraki towards a stronghold with archers and boiling oil is not an unreasonable tactic.

Or fall on them from ambush, like Robb did to Jaime in the Whispering Wood. We're not talking the Dothraki Sea here. This is the Westerosi home ground, with the Dothraki out of their natural environment.

[Batman]

Or fall on them from ambush, like Robb did to Jaime in the Whispering Wood. We're not talking the Dothraki Sea here. This is the Westerosi home ground, with the Dothraki out of their natural environment.

Exactly, the Dothraki are skilled in battle but they do not have commander like Ned, Stannis or Tywin, men who know how to exploit dozens of weaknesses that most people just dont see. Even Robert, while favouring offense, knows when to be careful. He was able to retreat from Ashmark in good order when he saw that he did not have the advantage.

[The Promised Prince]

Ned and Stannis have won many battles by using the enemies offense against them. The Dothraki are notorious for not being cautious. They charged into the unsullied when they could have easily outflanked them and were crushed for it. The refuse to acknowledge siege warfare as a tactic and instead view it was cowardice. Stannis and Ned know that a man on a wall is worth many more than those beneath it. Luring the Dothraki towards a stronghold with archers and boiling oil is not an unreasonable tactic.

Ser, the argument here is a battle on an open field. That battle of Unsullied against Dothraki, if it was Drogo's khalasar in that battle I think the dothraki would win that day.

[nojia]

Well obviously its WILDLINGS! Har! :lol:

[Free Northman]

Ser, the argument here is a battle on an open field. That battle of Unsullied against Dothraki, if it was Drogo's khalasar in that battle I think the dothraki would win that day.

If the argument is let the Dothraki pick the terrain, then sure, the Westerosi general deserves his defeat.

That's very different from engaging them in the open field (meaning not from behind the fortified walls of a keep). The open field includes wide ranging terrain, including moutains, forests, rivers, hills, plains and any other type of terrain you can think of.

One of the fundamentals of military tactics is to choose your terrain carefully.

Any Westerosi army that does not do this deserves defeat.

EDIT:

I think you interpreted the open field as being a flat plain with no terrain factors influencing the battle. It would be ludicrous not to use terrain to one's advantage, as Robb did at the Whispering Wood and at Oxcross, and as the Northmen are bound to do in the coming Battle of Ice, and as the Dornish have been doing for centuries in their deserts and mountains.

[Bayard]

Well, I would say the Unsullied, yes, they practice all their life, with all types of weapons, sword, lance, shield... what other warrior can say the same?? None. Yeah, the Northmen, the stormlanders are tough men, but in the end, they make a medieval type of army, made from many little noble armies. They can never be as effective as a state founded army , with all the men trained together, to fight the same.

I think on par with the Unsullied are the Golden Company, again people who live only to fight, mercenaries. I think as a group, the unsullied are better, but the GC also has cavalry, elephants, and probably very good commanders and officers. After these 2, come the Dothraki. Yes, they are vulnerable against a man in full armor, but let me ask you, in a Westerosi army, how many men do really have a full body plate?? Only the nobles, that kind of armor is extremely expensive, even more so, if you want one for the horse. In human history we've seen time and time again that an army made up completely of cavalry, as the Dothraki, are is very dangerous, and most of the times it wins the battles. The Mongols crushed the medieval Hungarian and Polish armies, so why not the Dothraki?? It's a lot easier for them to addapt, to put on some sort of armor, a breastplate, than for the Westeros armies to get more cavalry. Actually if the Dothraki tried to learn a little of the others, and take on some armor, maybe some swords that can pierce plates .... i would put them at no.1

[The Promised Prince]

If the argument is let the Dothraki pick the terrain, then sure, the Westerosi general deserves his defeat.

That's very different from engaging them in the open field (meaning not from behind the fortified walls of a keep). The open field includes wide ranging terrain, including moutains, forests, rivers, hills, plains and any other type of terrain you can think of.

One of the fundamentals of military tactics is to choose your terrain carefully.

Any Westerosi army that does not do this deserves defeat.

EDIT:

I think you interpreted the open field as being a flat plain with no terrain factors influencing the battle. It would be ludicrous not to use terrain to one's advantage, as Robb did at the Whispering Wood and at Oxcross, and as the Northmen are bound to do in the coming Battle of Ice, and as the Dornish have been doing for centuries in their deserts and mountains.

And that is why I said the crannogmen are invincible in their terrain. Of course open field would mean small hills, very few trees, large wide plains.

[Batman]

Ser, the argument here is a battle on an open field. That battle of Unsullied against Dothraki, if it was Drogo's khalasar in that battle I think the dothraki would win that day.

And if you put the Northerners in a blizzard they would win the day, put the Stormlanders in a dense forest and they would win the day, put the Dornish in the desert and they would win the day. Terrain is a huge part of warfare as all of the good Westerosi generals would know. Hell, even the bad Westerosi generals would know that.

There are a number of terrains that play to the strengths of various armies. The Dothraki are best suited to wide open grass fields. No general in his right mind would fight them on that terrain.

[The Promised Prince]

And if you put the Northerners in a blizzard they would win the day, put the Stormlanders in a dense forest and they would win the day, put the Dornish in the desert and they would win the day. Terrain is a huge part of warfare as all of the good Westerosi generals would know. Hell, even the bad Westerosi generals would know that.

There are a number of terrains that play to the strengths of various armies. The Dothraki are best suited to wide open grass fields. No general in his right mind would fight them on that terrain.

But if they DO meet in that terrain, who would you think will win?

[Free Northman]

But if they DO meet in that terrain, who would you think will win?

There are many conditions under which the Dothraki would win a battle. It is the task of the Westerosi commander to ensure that these conditions are not met.

In short - Mace Tyrell against Khal Drogo - I give it to the Dothraki.

Randall Tarly or Eddard Stark against Khal Drogo - the Dothraki are toast.

[Batman]

But if they DO meet in that terrain, who would you think will win?

Equal army numbers? How many armoured knights? Are the men Northern or Westermen or Dornish or others? Clearly they dont have a good general. Mostly foot, with archers and freeriders? Any sellswords?

All this aside the Dothraki would probably win, although their lack of armour remains a big question mark for me. Jorah is a fairly good knight but he is no Sandor Clegane. The problem is there arent enough Sandor Cleganes in most armies. He may cut through 100 dothraki but eventually he will tire.

[The Promised Prince]

There are many conditions under which the Dothraki would win a battle. It is the task of the Westerosi commander to ensure that these conditions are not met.

In short - Mace Tyrell against Khal Drogo - I give it to the Dothraki.

Randall Tarly or Eddard Stark against Khal Drogo - the Dothraki are toast.

Oh really? Would you agree that Ned Stark has knowledge of almost all of the military powers of westeros? Now why would Ned tell Robert that he will only fear the Dothraki once they cross the narrow sea?

[Batman]

There are many conditions under which the Dothraki would win a battle. It is the task of the Westerosi commander to ensure that these conditions are not met.

In short - Mace Tyrell against Khal Drogo - I give it to the Dothraki.

Randall Tarly or Eddard Stark against Khal Drogo - the Dothraki are toast.

Well said