From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VIII

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Just to throw two pence in, but the original "From Player to Pawn? Rereading Sansa?" threads maybe helpful here as they covered not only a summary of the text chapter by chapter, but inculded a hell of a lot of quotes and good discussion of those points afterwards. Also the analysis does a lot of compare and contrast with other character chapters and may indeed be faster than going though the books and retyping out the quotes: copy and paste being easier and all. :cheers:

Especially given the recent GRRM comments about symbolism, I have always found that passage about the dresses very suspect as representing more than it appeared to and could again foreshadow that Sansa's romantic future will be of her own choosing. Since AGOT Sansa is the one who knew which colours represented which House, something which is taken seriously in Westeros (look at Tyrion's comment to LF in ACOK about him not wearing his house colours).

Anway, because I'm being extremely lazy, here is my previous post about it:

Clothing

Lysa’s wardrobe is highlighted in detail as is Sansa’s first choice of dress for the day, a red and blue dress that even LF describes as too Tully. The importance of dressing in House Colours is brought up by LF

We then see Sansa look through Lysa’s wardrobe for something to wear. There are several possible foreshadowing points and possibly a parallel to Cersei in this passage. The first is what Alayne’s options are and what she chooses, barring in mind the importance of House Colours.

The first gown is “gown of purple silk that gave her pause”. Purple traditionally is only worn by Kings. She thinks about wearing this dress, but moves on. I wonder if this signifies that she will have the option to marry the King and decide not to.

The second gown is “dark blue velvet sashed with siver that would have woken all the colour in her eyes”. Now these aren’t the colours of House Arryn, but they are close and I would be interested to see if any other House has these colours. Again it is due to her bastard status that she rejects this dress as being to high for her new station. Perhaps Harry will feel that he does not wish to marry a bastard?

The third gown is “dark brown “ with “leaves and vines embroidered around the bodice, sleeves, and hem in golden thread” and she chooses to wear “simple velvet ribbon in autumn gold”. Now this may mean nothing as the dress should be black to be exact, but the reference to leaves and autumn gold and the dark brown are very similar to the colours of House Clegane. Indeed the Autumn gold does seem reminiscent of Sandor’s tale about the three dogs dying in the Autumn grass. As this is the dress she chooses, is this foreshadowing her choosing as simpler life with Sandor? Or could it be her dressing appropriately to her station?

However it also seems to be very much connected to Cersei and the parallel journeys their lives are taking. At a similar point in the book both women choose similar clothing. In deed this choice of attire scene might be the cross over point between Sansa ascending to greater things and Cersei beginning to fall. Certainly the parallel between Cersei and Sansa have been present throughout the series and this scene may again reflect that. When Cersei goes to meet the High Septon

They chose almost an identical dress and do so thinking about the impression they need to create. Much as I would like to think the dress choice relates to Sandor, the coincidence of it being so close to Cersei’s dress is too large to ignore.

Oh, good catch on the connection between Cersei's dress and Sansa/Alayne's! I agree with you that this may well symbolize a crossover point between Sansa's ascent and Cersei's descent. This may also be foreshadowing that Sansa will be the "younger and more beautiful" queen to bring Cersei down. It would truly be sweet if Cersei met her Waterloo at the hands of someone she had such contempt for.

The dress being in the Clegane colors - yes, there is loads and loads of symbolism there :) Sansa/Alayne no longer has Sandor's cloak, but she is cloaking herself, so to speak, in his house colors. Foreshadowing perhaps?

On another topic, the Sansa as Mother connection just will not go away in my mind: Remember the conversation Myranda Royce and Alayne/Sansa had on their way down the mountain. Out of nowhere, Randa remarks to Sansa about how Sansa's breasts were smaller than hers and then goes on about how big breasts produce more milk than smaller ones and who ever heard of a wet nurse with small breasts?

Huhwhat? As a "getting to know you" conversation this is pretty out in left field unless Randa and Sansa were both nursing mothers - and neither one of them is. I can understand Randa wanting to talk dirty and show herself as being worldly-wise, but what has milk production got to do with anything? I think this odd little interval is meant to once again connect Sansa with the Mother archetype, and maybe foreshadow Sansa bearing and nursing a child later on (and it is NOT true that large breasts produce more milk; I am sure Sansa will be plenty able to feed twins if she has them!).

[Ragnorak]

Point taken Ragnorak :) Of course, considering the nature of the thread, most topics will reoccur as people rethink and develop fresh readings and insights on "old" issues. We can strive to provide links to major sections or analyses, but inevitably, as new posters join the thread, there's going to be a constant turnover of discussion and material which is vital. This all means of course that you will have to meander through these parts more frequently and bless us with some actual posts on things which interest you in Sansa's arc :P

Fair enough.

One of the things I want most from Sansa's story is for her to beat LF at his own game. I want her to forge all of the manipulative cruelty she's suffered into Littlefinger's undoing. Somehow the creepy way LF views Sansa makes it hard for me to ponder the possibilities. It is not dissimilar to a father not wanting to ponder the reasons his daughter got home late from her date. But here's a shot at it based on Sansa's Snow Winterfell as foreshadowing.

The Ghost of Highheart prophesized Sansa's involvement in the Purple Wedding and her slaying a giant in a castle built of snow.

I dreamt of a maid at a feast, with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."

The scene where Sansa builds a Winterfell snow castle seems to fit this description; however, ripping up Sweet Robin's doll hardly seems to fit among such significant events as the death of Kings. Ser Gregor (as Robert Strong) and Littlefinger (the giant referring to the Titan of Braavos) are popular suspects. If the prophesy does refer to a future event, given the length and detail Martin gives that scene it seems likely that it contains foreshadowing of this future event.

What do I want with snowballs? She looked at her sad little arsenal. There’s no one to throw them at. She let the one she was making drop from her hand. I could build a snow knight instead, she thought. Or even…

Sansa starts off with snowballs-- weapons-- but she has no one to throw them at. This symbolizes that she has not yet identified her true enemy and with her prior memories of playing with her siblings emphasizes that she is alone. Being alone has connections to Arya given Ned's advice about the lone wolf and packs and Arya plays prominently in her snowball memories.

She remembered a summer’s snow in Winterfell when Arya and Bran had ambushed her as she emerged from the keep one morning. They’d each had a dozen snowballs to hand, and she’d had none. Bran had been perched on the roof of the covered bridge, out of reach, but Sansa had chased Arya through the stables and around the kitchen until both of them were breathless. She might even have caught her, but she’d slipped on some ice. Her sister came back to see if she was hurt. When she said she wasn’t, Arya hit her in the face with another snowball, but Sansa grabbed her leg and pulled her down and was rubbing snow in her hair

Does this foreshadow that Sansa will reconnect with Bran and Arya? They both have snowballs but Sansa had none. They both have wolves, Bran is a greenseer, Arya is training to be a Faceless Man, and Sansa is just emerging from the keep and has yet to arm herself. Bran is perched, a position for a bird, just out of reach-- seems like weirwood communication. The Arya interaction is curious. Sansa chases Arya but slips on some ice and Arya comes back to see if she is hurt. Not sure what to make of it. Rubbing snow in her hair makes me think of Jon watching Robb and Sam leave. Sansa is rubbing the snow. Does that mean she'll make Arya leave or make her come back?

She pushed two of her snowballs together, added a third, packed more snow in around them, and patted the whole thing into the shape of a cylinder.

Sansa is turning her weapons, the snowballs, into Winterfell. She pushes two of them together and then adds a third. The three participants in the snowball fight were Sansa, Arya, and Bran--that has possibilities.

before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell. She found twigs and fallen branches beneath the snow and broke off the ends to make the trees for the godswood. For the gravestones in the lichyard she used bits of bark.

As soon as Sansa knows it is Winterfell she builds a godswood using twigs for trees.

This stands pretty well on its own.

Soon her gloves and her boots were crusty white, her hands were tingling, and her feet were soaked and cold, but she did not care. The castle was all that mattered.

Her bridges kept falling down. There was a covered bridge between the armory and the main keep, and another that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower to the second floor of the rookery, but no matter how carefully she shaped them, they would not hold together. The third time one collapsed on her, she cursed aloud and sat back in helpless frustration.

“Pack the snow around a stick, Sansa.”

“A stick?” she asked.

“That will give it strength enough to stand, I’d think,”

This whole paragraph has potential but I'm not sure what to make of the individual buildings. The third one collapsed reference might mean three attempts at something or it could mean that the third snowball she added to the first two she pushed together collapsed on her. The covered bridge is where Bran was perched. Maybe Bran will collapse from some effort in helping Sansa rebuild Winterfell? Sticks are what she uses for the godswood. Snow could symbolize the North possibly her Stark side. So the old gods are what gives Sansa Stark or Sansa at the center of the North the strength to rebuild Winterfell or hold the North? Maybe its about warging. Bran collapses from the effort of helping Sansa learn but she somehow needs the old gods inside her to give Winterfell the strength to stand?

Does the fact that LF is giving her advice on rebuilding Winterfell mean that she is going to use him to help her retake or rebuild Winterfell?

She raised the walls of the glass gardens while Littlefinger roofed them over, and when they were done with that he helped her extend the walls and build the guardshall. When she used sticks for the covered bridges, they stood, just as he had said they would.

Another reference to the old gods and one to bark that she used earlier to represent gravestones. Is she going to use the North's fallen to unite them, is it someone's death in particular or is this some reference to whatever is hidden in the Winterfell crypts?

“The glass was locked in frames, no? Twigs are your answer. Peel them and cross them and use bark to tie them together into frames. I’ll show you.”

However you interpret it, if there's any foreshadowing here Sansa is going to be the one who rebuilds Winterfell. There's also a build up to the conflict with the giant.

“That will give it strength enough to stand, I’d think,” Petyr said. “May I come into your castle, my lady?”

Sansa was wary. “Don’t break it. Be…”

“…gentle?” He smiled. “Winterfell has withstood flercer enemies than me.

There's a whole other meaning to that especially when combined with

Dawn stole into her garden like a thief.

but I just don't want to go there.

It seems we have Littlefinger coming to Winterfell. When Sweet Robin comes out and asks what she's doing she says:

“Winterfell is the seat of House Stark,” Sansa told her husband-to-be.

Is LF going to try and claim Winterfell the way he did the Vale? Little Robert is the enemy that tries to destroy her castle and he is the man *cough* she is supposed to marry at this point in the story.

This strikes me as Sansa using LF somehow in the rebuilding of Winterfell and then casting him aside right to his face.

The Broken Tower was easier still. They made a tall tower together, kneeling side by side to roll it smooth, and when they’d raised it Sansa stuck her fingers through the top, grabbed a handful of snow, and flung it full in his face.

This strikes me as her eventual motivation.

“That was unchivalrously done, my lady.”

“As was bringing me here, when you swore to take me home.”

She wondered where this courage had come from, to speak to him so frankly. From Winterfell, she thought. I am stronger within the walls of Winterfell.

Her response suggests she might figure out all of Littlefingers game that brought her to the Eryie. Based on the earlier bark/gravestone reference it might mean she will tell people of his involvement with Ned's death to unify the factions in Winterfell to her side. It does suggest that by the time they get to Winterfell that she will be the stronger one.

Give me your hands could easily be interpreted as a marriage proposal. Her refusal based on the Marillion similarity suggests she'll know exactly who he is by that point. It also suggests he'll learn who she is-- Eddard Stark's daughter.

Sansa. Take off those gloves, give me your hands.”

“I won’t.” He sounded almost like Marillion, the night he’d gotten so drunk at the wedding. Only this time Lothor Brune would not appear to save her; Ser Lothor was Petyr’s man. “You shouldn’t kiss me. I might have been your own daughter…”

“Might have been,” he admitted, with a rueful smile. “But you’re not, are you? You are Eddard Stark’s daughter, and Cat’s. But I think you might be even more beautiful than your mother was, when she was your age.”

“Petyr, please.” Her voice sounded so weak. “Please…”

“A castle!”

The "a castle" is where the fighting starts and here's the outcome:

A mad rage seized hold of her. She picked up a broken branch and smashed the torn doll’s head down on top of it, then pushed it down atop the shattered gatehouse of her snow castle. The servants looked aghast, but when Littlefinger saw what she’d done he laughed. “If the tales be true, that’s not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell’s walls.”

So my Clue guess is: Sansa, in Winterfell, with a sword-- the woman who passes the sentence...

[brashcandy]

Very interesting reading Ragnorak, and well supported by those quotes. I'm honestly torn on the symbolism relating to the snow castle. On the one hand, I can appreciate it as almost literal foreshadowing that we will see Sansa be the one to rebuild Winterfell, and do away with LF in the process; however, I've never been very comfortable with this interpretation, given that it seems too obvious for Martin, and also conflicts with the other developments in her story.

Yes, in this scene LF "appears" to be helping Sansa, but if there's anything we've learnt from the series is not to trust LF's actions. Returning Sansa to the place where she is strongest is not a gamble that LF can afford to take or is willing to take IMO. He tells Sansa that he wants her to be Alayne Stone in her heart, and part of ensuring this eventuality is to ultimately disconnect her from those roots she has in the North.

LF gives her the advice on how to get her bridges to stand up - symbolic perhaps of how he's helping her to learn the game right now. Bridges usually signify an attempt to make a connection, so we might see Sansa struggling to form alliances in the Vale, but eventually succeeding via LF's strategies. He tells her to pack the snow around a stick, and this brings me to my preferred reading of this scene which is that the snow castle might be symbolic of Sansa herself, and what she needs to survive and triumph. Crucially, this will involve beating LF at his own game. She might not be able to pack the snow around a stick anymore, but what about a stone - Mya Stone/Alayne Stone/bastard brave?

If Sansa is constructing herself here, then LF's input makes sense: he's the one to create the identity of Alayne Stone, which he seems to envision as tying Sansa closer to him, but might actually work against him. He wants to come into her castle at the end of this "game" but she's become too strong for him unknowingly once the "tower" has been raised.

:) I'm constantly battling with these thoughts Ragnorak, but what do you think? I must stress though that I really like your reading, especially the possible connection to Bran and Arya.

[Ragnorak]

Very interesting reading Ragnorak, and well supported by those quotes. I'm honestly torn on the symbolism relating to the snow castle. On the one hand, I can appreciate it as almost literal foreshadowing that we will see Sansa be the one to rebuild Winterfell, and do away with LF in the process; however, I've never been very comfortable with this interpretation, given that it seems too obvious for Martin, and also conflicts with the other developments in her story.

Yes, in this scene LF "appears" to be helping Sansa, but if there's anything we've learnt from the series is not to trust LF's actions. Returning Sansa to the place where she is strongest is not a gamble that LF can afford to take or is willing to take IMO. He tells Sansa that he wants her to be Alayne Stone in her heart, and part of ensuring this eventuality is to ultimately disconnect her from those roots she has in the North.

LF gives her the advice on how to get her bridges to stand up - symbolic perhaps of how he's helping her to learn the game right now. Bridges usually signify an attempt to make a connection, so we might see Sansa struggling to form alliances in the Vale, but eventually succeeding via LF's strategies. He tells her to pack the snow around a stick, and this brings me to my preferred reading of this scene which is that the snow castle might be symbolic of Sansa herself, and what she needs to survive and triumph. Crucially, this will involve beating LF at his own game. She might not be able to pack the snow around a stick anymore, but what about a stone - Mya Stone/Alayne Stone/bastard brave?

If Sansa is constructing herself here, then LF's input makes sense: he's the one to create the identity of Alayne Stone, which he seems to envision as tying Sansa closer to him, but might actually work against him. He wants to come into her castle at the end of this "game" but she's become too strong for him unknowingly once the "tower" has been raised.

:) I'm constantly battling with these thoughts Ragnorak, but what do you think? I must stress though that I really like your reading, especially the possible connection to Bran and Arya.

I'm far more comfortable with the Bran and Arya portions than most of the middle sections. The giant's head on Winterfell's walls also seem like foreshadowing but I like the idea of Sansa cutting his head off First Men style so much my objectivity is questionable. It would play nicely into her wish for some hero to cut off Slynt's head since LF was really behind that.

I'm not sure from a foreshadowing perspective that LF's help actually represents him. It might all be Bran. Sweet Robin represents LF from the foreshadowing perspective after all. LF's dialogue exchanges with Sansa seem to have some foreshadowing too so I don't know where to draw the lines. I wish I had thoughts on symbols for the bridges and what they mean. Sure, a Library is probably knowledge of some sort but nothings jumped out as significant so far.

The whole scene works on multiple levels so the foreshadowing doesn't rule out Sansa rebuilding herself at all.

ETA: On rereading it I wonder if throwing snow in his face might be her revealing herself as Sansa Stark

[TNine]

So my Clue guess is: Sansa, in Winterfell, with a sword-- the woman who passes the sentence...

I both love and hate this idea. I can totally imagine Sansa doing something (like revealing his betrayal of her father), and him being brought to be executed. Then her having a Jon-like moment: "No, this is wrong. Someone fetch me a block." Connecting to her inner Stark, finally taking authority.

On the other hand, the idea of sweet little Sansa using a greatsword to take off someone's head seems...off.

[Ragnorak]

I both love and hate this idea. I can totally imagine Sansa doing something (like revealing his betrayal of her father), and him being brought to be executed. Then her having a Jon-like moment: "No, this is wrong. Someone fetch me a block." Connecting to her inner Stark, finally taking authority.

On the other hand, the idea of sweet little Sansa using a greatsword to take off someone's head seems...off.

I have a similar reaction. Looking at Sansa I think no. Then I think of her finding out that LF betrayed Ned, caused all her father's men to be murdered, that she had to witness Ned's beheading because LF arranged that too, that he was the one who betrayed her trust that got her married to Tyrion and after all that he tried to usurp the role of her father and kissed her. If that doesn't do it her reunion with Jeyne Poole should. Just picture Sansa seeing the scars on Jeyne's back and finding out why they're there.

[1234567]

@Ragnarok

Excellent analysis. It may also be significant that the garden itself was meant to be a Godswood. Sansa initially reflects that it is as empty as her. The snowballs seem to signify what she has lost: her home is gone, but also it may reflect her faith in the Old Gods and by building the Castle she has created a Godswood where none could grow, reflecting her ability to restore people's faith and ideals, but also highlighting Sansa's ability to find strength where others cannot or feel there is none. The ground is too hard for a Godswood to grow, so Sansa makes a metephorical one. Sansa has a way of bringing out reserves of strength, courage and faith, when there seems to be no hope. Again there is the Mother aspect, she can make a home and nuturing environvement from nothing, and aggressively defend it when it is threatened. As seen with SR's doll.

I suspect it is almost certain that LF is the Savage Giant. When she flings the snow at him it could indeed be foreshadowing of the full force of the Stark in her and Winter, hitting LF. It is also noticible that it is the snow from the broken tower, which is the one Bran was thrown from.

LF may not yet see that she is still Sansa inside. We have seen how symbolic the cloak gesture is from a man to a woman and it is important that when LF covers her in his cloak, she is still wearing her own (there is no mention in the text of her removing it). This seems to symbolize that while he has coated her in Alyane, at the core she is still Sansa. His cloak literally cloaks/hides her, but she does not wrap herself in it.

[A...]

Ragnorak and Brashcandy - I love both your takes on the scene, I can't decide which to think more probable yet, but both are extrememly insightful.

I especially loved the bit about the Starks returning to Winterfell and Bran watching from a bird-position!

However I don't really think Sansa will off LF with a sword. It just sounds too... fantasy? Her arc has been all about rejecting the fantastical, poetic, melodramatic so this wouldn't fit.

As for throwing snow in his face, could this mean the possible help of Jon Snow (if he's not dead)?

As for the snow castle literally being Winterfell as opposed to a metaphore, I'm still trying to puzzle that one out.

ETA: the clothes analyses are also amazing and not something I have thought of before, kudos to everyone who wrote about it!

(+Spelling)

[Lummel]

Nice post Ragnarok!

“That will give it strength enough to stand, I’d think,” Petyr said. “May I come into your castle, my lady?”

Sansa was wary. “Don’t break it. Be…”

“…gentle?” He smiled. “Winterfell has withstood fiercer enemies than me.

Apart from the sexual symbolism come into my castle is also the game that noble children play to learn about heraldry, and presumably the children must pretend to bear arms other than their own (or else the game would get quickly boring), so that pushes us back to the issue of identity, wearing false colours and pretence and it's a little reminder to recall Baelish's ancestral arms showing the Titian of Braavos.

[Tagganaro]

Great analysis like usual Ragnorak. That whole scene is amazing, and weird as well. Right before that Sansa tastes a falling snowflake and then collapses to the ground for what seems like it might be at least a few moments, without even remembering it. I believe there was talk on the Heresy thread about "winter entering Sansa" or something like that there.

Anyway, I'm with you on the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy not referring to that. Even though it roughly matches up chronologically with the other events, you're correct that it's way too meaningless compared with the deaths of kings she prophecies about. So what was the prophecy really about and who?

The 2 key candidates have to be LF or Robert Strong. I like that the giant imagery connects to Bran's coma dream where he describes Gregor/Ser Robert Strong as a "giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood." Obviously the thematic connection is there too- Sansa + Sandor actually have quite a bit of history and Sandor has "killed" Arya (being the last one to see her alive) and certainly vice versa Arya has "killed" Sandor. That being said, Robert Strong lacks the strong personal connection to Sansa that would really make sense. Is is possible that several people converge on Sansa in the Vale? Maybe Cersei somehow finds out about Sansa being there (Mad Mouse?), sends Robert Strong there to kill her/get her. But that's still quite a difficulty to match it to Bran's vision as well- His vision implies Jaime is there and probably/definitely Sandor as well. Could they all converge on Sansa? And how would Sansa kill Robert Strong in such a scenario? Is the castle made of snow in the Vale or is it more likely this would all take place at Winterfell?

No, I'm still going with LF I think. Much more personal, and thematically I like how the "Eddard Stark's daughter" comment matches up with Sansa actually being that and revenging Ned. "Waking the Wolf" in a manner of speaking.

As for the sword imagery speculation- hmm. Maybe Widow's Wail or Oathkeeper finds its way back to Sansa? Widow's Wail actually makes a connection to Sansa, seeing as how she is a widow. But it hasn't been mentioned really since it was forged. Sansa wielding a two-handed great sword to chop off LF's head? No haha. But that really sharp valyrian steel, her father's own sword to take off the head of the man who is largely responsible for her father's death? I don't know, it could happen.

"Pack the snow around a stick, Sansa"

"A stick?"

Possibly one with a pointy end?

[Knight]

LF may not yet see that she is still Sansa inside. We have seen how symbolic the cloak gesture is from a man to a woman and it is important that when LF covers her in his cloak, she is still wearing her own (there is no mention in the text of her removing it). This seems to symbolize that while he has coated her in Alyane, at the core she is still Sansa. His cloak literally cloaks/hides her, but she does not wrap herself in it.

Ragnorak, great analysis! I'd like to add the following on the symbolism of the cloak: When Sansa gets beaten and stripped on Joffrey's orders in KL, Sandor cloak covers her, while her clothes are at least stripped half of her. By covering her naked skin with Sandor's cloak, without any additional clothes underneath, is a sign that Sansa truely has internalized Sandor's protection and advice. Opposed to the cloak LF covers her in; her inner core remains untouched by him. Sandor, however, seems to have had an impact on Sansa that has become an integral part of herself.

I read the snowball fight as just a mere memory and never attached any symbolic meaning to it, but by pointing out the connection between Bran and the fallen tower from the snow castle, there is a possible symbolic meaning hidden. I am puzzled where to place Arya in the memory, however. Another clear sign of foreshadowing is when Jon tells Arya that she will be sewing all through winter, and a needle is locked between your fingers as spring comes.' somehow, this quote popped into my mind as I read Ragnorak's analysis on the snowball fight.

During the fight, Sansa checks up on Arya to see if she is allright. Arya then throws a snowball in Sansa's face, so she made abuse of Sansa's compassion at that time. Something similar may happen in the future when the two sisters meet again. However, the final part of the memory consists of Sansa rubbing snow in Arya's hair. Somebody already pointed out that this is something we see Jon do several times with Sam and Arya. Sansa may remind Arya to the fact that she is a Stark by doing something that Arya would associate with Jon, the one member in the Stark family she got along best with.

I hope my analysis is clear. Somehow, I have a feeling that I read too much in it - any thoughts on this?

[Ragnorak]

I think the passage is first and foremost a psychological metaphor for Sansa. There have been several foreshadowing ideas floating around. Tze has a few but it was the thread about Ironborn Kingsmoot foreshadowing how the final conflict will play out that made me wonder about the Snow Winterfell scene being foreshadowing. The psychological metaphor is what makes it my favorite Sansa passage.

This was a first attempt, I'm not married to anything in there. The three snowballs might be Sansa, Mya, and Myranda. Given how well all the other elaborate foreshadowing ideas out there seem to fit, I can't imagine Martin wouldn't do it here with Sansa too.

I don't see Sansa as chopping LF's head of as revenge (the revenge motivation is mostly mine) but as the Stark in Winterfell. The two things that I see mattering for that are her choice to not build a snow knight and that it takes place in Winterfell. A huge part of her story is shredding the the fairy tale of knight protectors and learning to protect herself. If she is rebuilding Winterfell that means she'll be the Stark in Winterfell. I don't expect Sansa to make a habit of beheading people, but personally beheading LF in Winterfell for betraying Ned in front of all the northern lords as the final act of the Starks reclaiming Winterfell makes for a pretty powerful scene. It makes her "Ned's girl" on a whole different level and we all know the kind of loyalty that inspires.

Love the idea that Sansa makes the garden a godswood-- it makes her the sticks, the inner strength that allows Winterfell to stand. Someone (Bran?) thinks that the buildings don't matter as long as the godswood stands so does Winterfell.

[Kittykatknits]

Wow, great discussion about the snow castle scene! I also share the assumption that this scene, as foreshadowed by the Ghost of HH is more than just building the castle and Ser Sweetrobin's doll but I think it may be more about Sansa herself rather than WF. I admit a small part of me likes the idea of her being the hero to chop off LF's head but I really prefer that not happen. At this stage in the series, she's one of the very few POVs who hasn't killed anyone yet and I'd like to see it stay that way.

For lack of a better term, Sansa is experiencing an identity crisis right now. We saw in KL that Sansa never lost who she was, she was still Sansa Stark in her heart despite the emotional, physical, and sexual abuse and despite having the name Lady Lannister forced upon her. It was very obvious that she was her father's daughter and she never developed Stockholm Syndrome. Sansa escaped from KL and is now in the Vale where she is not being abused on a daily basis the same way that she was before yet I think LF is a much bigger threat to who Sansa Stark is.

Sansa walks outside and sees the snow, and tastes it, falling to her knees. I can picture that moment and its a very powerful scene. Sansa is literally accepting snow, the object of winter, in to her body. The act brings her to her knees, a position that I think of as one of reverence, of worship, of submission. She's the daughter of winter in this scene to me. After this, Sansa begins to build WF in snow, again using the very product of winter to do so. She thinks to herself that she is stronger within the walls of WF. But, WF is not just the home that Sansa left behind, it's the home of the former Kings of Winter, the Stark seat, in the middle of the North itself, the name is even important - it is where Winter Falls. To me, Sansa is saying her strength comes from all this, an allusion back to her being the daughter of winter.

So, then LF comes along, asking if he can come in to her castle and begins to help her build it. In this scene, superficially he is helping her build the castle yet in the end he is a threat to her with his kiss, an act that leads to a threat on her life. In other words, help from LF is like eating fruit from a poisoned tree. Then, we have Ser Sweetrobin using the doll to smash the walls of WF and Sansa ripping its head off. I like to picture Sansa doing this (and please, please let it play out just like this in the show!!!) as it has such a visceral feel to it for me.

Lots of discussion on why LF is the giant has taken place so I won't go in to that other than to say I agree. It is LF that gives Sansa the name of Alayne Stone and the story of being raised in a motherhouse. Already, he has forced her to deny her name and her home, explaining that it is only to keep her safe. Then, later he asks Sansa if she can be Alayne in her heart. A shallow reading shows that he is asking her to pretend in order to hide her identity, as she is wanted for regicide and is in hiding from the Lannisters and Tyrells in KL. Yet, we know LF is not a benevolent man, he always wants something else and Sansa is no exception to that. So, in this moment, LF is really asking Sansa if she can be his creation, his object of desire. He wants her to shed her identity as a Stark and take on the identity that he wants. Sansa tells him yes, thinking lies and Arbor gold yet we see that he is having some success. She is becoming Alayne and thinking of him as father. Peeks of Sansa come out, she hears the cry of the wolf when coming down the mountain and has her thoughts of Sandor. LF also has told Sansa that she needs to leave WF behind her and find a new home. With this statement, LF is trying to tear Sansa away from the very place that she draws her strength from.

So, to get to my point, I think he is the giant that Sansa will slay but it is going to be more about her than about WF itself. We are given many hints in this scene on the tools that she may use to do it. We have her memories of her family and a strong sense of her identity as a Stark. You Need to Know Your Name is a strong theme in these books and I believe that is what is being revealed to Sansa here. We also have the presence of Ser Sweetrobin and has already been talked about, I believe that she will save him somehow. Sansa is Ned's daughter and we have been shown just how he feels about killing children. She makes the castle in a place meant to house the godswood and then builds it in the snow castle, a reference to Sansa's faith which has been a important part of Sansa's arc.

[Kittykatknits]

Just want to say, i absolutely love this thread, and it has made Sansa probably my second favorite character in the entire series.

Yep, I love this thread too. :) So, I'm dying to know, whose your favorite?

Also, I'm playing catch-up from some discussion yesterday regarding FAQs. I'd like to help coordinate putting that together. I'm thinking a central post to show all the questions along with answers or links to the answers might work. Maybe we can do a divide and conquer approach so that everyone volunteers to answer a few of them. I agree with Elba though, how we answer them can be tricky as some lines can be read more than one way.

I'm putting together a post on Sansa's future story arc based upon some earlier posts in this thread along with a few other threads I've read this week. It probably borders on crackpot but still has me wondering. Going to try and get that in front of everyone this afternoon.

[brashcandy]

So, to get to my point, I think he is the giant that Sansa will slay but it is going to be more about her than about WF itself. We are given many hints in this scene on the tools that she may use to do it. We have her memories of her family and a strong sense of her identity as a Stark. You Need to Know Your Name is a strong theme in these books and I believe that is what is being revealed to Sansa here. We also have the presence of Ser Sweetrobin and has already been talked about, I believe that she will save him somehow. Sansa is Ned's daughter and we have been shown just how he feels about killing children. She makes the castle in a place meant to house the godswood and then builds it in the snow castle, a reference to Sansa's faith which has been a important part of Sansa's arc.

Interestingly, we see Sweetrobin pleading innocence about his role in the destruction of Winterfell after LF blames him:

"His lordship was detroying the castle," said Petyr.

" A giant," the boy whispered weeping. "It wasn't me, it was a giant hurt the castle. She killed him! I hate her! I don't want to be leeched!"

...

They led the boy away. My lord husband, Sansa thought, as she contemplated the ruins of Winterfell.

We know that LF wants to convince Sansa that SR is the one standing in her way of reclaiming Winterfell, hence the need to get rid of him, marry Harry and have the Vale armies pledge to her cause. But of course, the real danger to House Stark is not the small boy who doesn't know what he's doing, but the giant/LF who pretends to have her best interests at heart. I think it's therefore very significant in the final analysis that Sansa does destroy the doll, whilst SR is led off for medical care. She has built Winterfell and watched it be ruined, perhaps an appropriate image for the childhood that all the Starks have lost, but she gets the final victory over its foes. When LF jokingly talks about it not being the first giant that has ended with its head on the walls of Winterfell, Sansa replies that this only happens in the stories. Well, we know that stories have a way of coming to life.

[SerMixalot]

Methinks there is a weird obsession with Sansa

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Interestingly, we see Sweetrobin pleading innocence about his role in the destruction of Winterfell after LF blames him:

We know that LF wants to convince Sansa that SR is the one standing in her way of reclaiming Winterfell, hence the need to get rid of him, marry Harry and have the Vale armies pledge to her cause. But of course, the real danger to House Stark is not the small boy who doesn't know what he's doing, but the giant/LF who pretends to have her best interests at heart. I think it's therefore very significant in the final analysis that Sansa does destroy the doll, whilst SR is led off for medical care. She has built Winterfell and watched it be ruined, perhaps an appropriate image for the childhood that all the Starks have lost, but she gets the final victory over its foes. When LF jokingly talks about it not being the first giant that has ended with its head on the walls of Winterfell, Sansa replies that this only happens in the stories. Well, we know that stories have a way of coming to life.

I recall how quickly Alayne/Sansa figured out that Lyn Corbray was on LF's payroll and was acting as a spy/agent for him. Ditto how quickly she figured out why Harry was the Heir. As careful readers know, all the way back to GoT it is stated that Sansa is NOT stupid, that she is very learned and book-smart - this is one of the things that Arya envies her for.

Now as far as Sweetrobin and the Vale are concerned - I really think she is going to reject the idea that SR has to die for her to somehow command an army and regain the North. First of all, SR is taken away for medical care after the doll's head is stuck on the pike outside the snow castle. It's SR's favorite toy, but it's not SR himself. This might also symbolize Sansa helping to wean him away from childishness and set him onto the path of growing up to be a healthier man. I have always maintained that SR isn't as sick as he's supposed to be. He's spoiled and badly brought up. If Bronze Yohn HAD got the chance to foster him we'd see a different kid. He'd have exercise, fresh air, other boys to play with, military training, and I'm sure Bronze Yohn would have had no hesitation in paddling SR's bottom if he threw chamberpots or demanded to see someone fly. :)

Then, when Sansa wonders if LF brought her lemons, her thought was that she had promised SR some lemon cakes. She wasn't just thinking of herself and how much she loved lemon cakes there - she wanted them for SR too.

Now we get to the promised marriage to HtH. I realize we're all talking about it as if LF is really intending to follow through on the offer. I thought again and realized that it's LF who says, (paraphrased) to Eddard, "I did warn you not to trust me." LF is about as likely to marry Sansa to HtH and help her take Winterfell as he is to sell her the Iron Islands. I am guessing that he does want Sansa, as Alayne, to charm Harry - but not to marry him. Given his reputation, I surmise he might hope that Harry seduces Sansa (thinking she's just Alayne), impregnates her, refuses to marry her, and now poor Sansa, disgraced and with a bastard child, will have no-one to turn to but Daddy Dearest. :ack: And now of course the North isn't going to rally to her cause, she won't have any Vale backing...she's just another bastard in trouble.

LF has absolutely NO intention of helping Sansa get Winterfell back. Among the many reasons I don't want to see her marry HtH this is one of them. I want Sansa to learn to be a guile heroine or Mother to the People or whatever will empower her the most, turn around and use LF for all he's worth, then discard him when he's no longer useful.

On that note, I wonder if her "slaying" the stone giant will mean a metaphorical slaying - that she exposes his treachery to all and sundry and everyone seeing that the Stone Giant has no armor, so to speak? She'll slay the power of the stone giant, but little dweeby Petyr Baelish will be packed off to the Wall to spend the rest of his life scrubbing floors and emptying chamber pots. Ha ha ha.

Which leads me to the fact that Sansa already has ample dirt on LF - all she needs is the right audience. I'm working on that post as we read and it will be up later today.

[Elba the Intoner]

House Frey's colours are actually dark blue and silver-grey. http://www.westeros....try/House_Frey/

Also House Tarbeck's, but they are extinct now.

And House Fowler's, from Dorne. Their symbol also happens to be a bird. Their motto is "let me soar". http://www.westeros....y/House_Fowler/

Looooove it.

The only other House with similar colours is House Blanetree (Maple leaves, green and brown, strewn on a field of yellow) but the sigil in the CItadel doesn't do the description much justice I think: http://www.westeros....ouse_Blanetree/

The only member of House Blanetree mentioned was a wife of a grandson of Lord Walder Frey, Tytos Frey. He was killed by the Hound during the Red Wedding.

Wow, where did you get all this info on these smaller houses and their colors Lady Lea? I remember this discussion about the clothes and this particular dress. I think I had pointed out that it also reminded me of the dress Arya wears at Acorn Hall with Lady Smallwood. So, I am guessing House Smallwood has similar colors. Maybe I should put this on the thread about Sansa and Arya parallels, but they both wear similar kinds of dresses at a point in their lives when they are in hiding.

[Lady Lea]

Wow, where did you get all this info on these smaller houses and their colors Lady Lea? I remember this discussion about the clothes and this particular dress. I think I had pointed out that it also reminded me of the dress Arya wears at Acorn Hall with Lady Smallwood. So, I am guessing House Smallwood has similar colors. Maybe I should put this on the thread about Sansa and Arya parallels, but they both wear similar kinds of dresses at a point in their lives when they are in hiding.

Haha I literally went through every single house in the Citadel's Heraldry section trying to see if any matched. You're right about House Smallwood, from the description (Six brown acorns, 3-2-1, on yellow) I didn't think it would fit the dress Sansa wore but if you think of the yellow as gold it works http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/House_Smallwood/

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

During the fight, Sansa checks up on Arya to see if she is allright. Arya then throws a snowball in Sansa's face, so she made abuse of Sansa's compassion at that time. Something similar may happen in the future when the two sisters meet again. However, the final part of the memory consists of Sansa rubbing snow in Arya's hair. Somebody already pointed out that this is something we see Jon do several times with Sam and Arya. Sansa may remind Arya to the fact that she is a Stark by doing something that Arya would associate with Jon, the one member in the Stark family she got along best with.

It was Sansa who slipped and Arya who checked on her. Hence, she "almost" caught her. If it was Arya who slipped, Sansa would have caught her.

On that note, I wonder if her "slaying" the stone giant will mean a metaphorical slaying - that she exposes his treachery to all and sundry and everyone seeing that the Stone Giant has no armor, so to speak? She'll slay the power of the stone giant, but little dweeby Petyr Baelish will be packed off to the Wall to spend the rest of his life scrubbing floors and emptying chamber pots. Ha ha ha.

Great post. This is the only part I hope you're wrong about. Slynt proved even being sent to the NW, someone can be dangerous. And LF is so much above Slynt, it's not even funny.

Personally, I would prefer Sansa to personally execute Littlefinger. I don't really want to see her becoming a sword fighter out of nowhere (that's Arya schtick). But an execution is fitting.