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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VIII

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With Sansa, I would find it believable for a girl of 11 to 13 act as she did, but even up to 15 is possible depending on the nature of the girl.

Good God yes, I was ridiculously provincial and sheltered up to age 18. It really depends on your environment and how sheltered/exposed to reality you've been.

I don't really think it would have hurt the story to age the characters up 2-3 years. In fact, in my mind I normally do that anyway since it works better with all the younger characters.

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Personally, I think Sansa's identity switch to Alanye is a way to discover new strenghts and abilities she would not have discovered as Sansa. The term 'bastard brave' frames this part of Sansa's development as a player of the Game perfectly.

In time, she will be struggling with regaining her original indentity as Sansa, but I think it would be quite disgraceful of GRRM if he lets Sansa 'flee' in her Alanye identity and give up 'Sansa' - Part of why I like Sansa so much is because she is quite easy to identify with (Yes, I am a girl and I adore bad-ass male and female fantasy characters, but I can identify with Sansa more because she is more realisticily written than say, a character like Victarion). In other words, I think it would complement the story if GRRM would leave Sansa's ladylike, courteous core intact while complemented with more cunning, political and diplomatic strengths. She seems well on her way in doing that, thanks to LF.

Personally, I see Sansa overpowering Cersei with the motive to avenge her father. However, I would be thrilled if she would be able to overpower Cersei with compassion and pity, exactly the kind of traits and weapons Cersei does not understand. Her compassionate nature needs the stength of 'bastard bravery' in order for this scenario to be successfull.

In a way, I feel as if Sansa is the perfect member of the Stark family to resettle the injustice the Starks have suffered - she has the personality to settle the conflict without any bloodshet, unlike Arya. It would be a suprising move for many readers who see Sansa as passive and incapable.

Edit: Grammar and spelling as usual.

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Girls, since I won`t be on forums in the next several days due to my obligations and much needed vacation, I want you to know that I think a lot about you and Sansa, and when I come back, I`ll give you some new thoughts...

@kitty, I hope a tread about SanSan is open

Everybody, thanks for your congrats on me becoming landed knight. With this forum, I`ll become council member in no time...

Girls, love you, and I`ll miss you...see ya when I come back from Dubrovnik...I have some stalking to do... :devil: ...

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Personally, I see Sansa overpowering Cersei with the motive to avenge her father. However, I would be thrilled if she would be able to overpower Cersei with compassion and pity, exactly the kind of traits and weapons Cersei does not understand. Her compassionate nature needs the stength of 'bastard bravery' in order for this scenario to be successfull.

The parallels between Cersei and Sansa are really striking, especially now that Sansa is potentially faced with her own Robert B in Harry the heir. Also, Cersei is now dependent on Ungregor, whilst Sansa developed her own special connection with Sandor. Given the latter's probable transformation on the Quiet Isle, I think it increases the chances of Cersei (and Gregor) being defeated by weapons they do not expect.

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The parallels between Cersei and Sansa are really striking, especially now that Sansa is potentially faced with her own Robert B in Harry the heir. Also, Cersei is now dependent on Ungregor, whilst Sansa developed her own special connection with Sandor. Given the latter's probable transformation on the Quiet Isle, I think it increases the chances of Cersei (and Gregor) being defeated by weapons they do not expect.

I had not realized the parallel between the two Clegane brothers - Sandor being the obvious protector for Sansa, who is learning the Game whilst Robert Strong is Cersei's protector. Thanks for pointing that one out brashcandy :) I cannot wait to find out what exactly will play out between these four characters. I do see Sansa bringing Cersei down, but Sandor's time at the QI will play out differently than slaying his brother. Perhaps he will take a path similar to Sansa's and will perform an important act out of compassion in regard to Ungregor, or even Tyrion? His hate for the dwarf may very well be toned down, which will prove to be of importance for Sansa's connection to Tyrion...

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Actually, they aged up all of the Stark kids.

They did, and also Dany.

I wanted Arya and Sansa aged up a few years, to their real ages (IRL). Which was I think 14 and 16 respectively during season 2 filming, or thereabouts. There would be tradeoffs, but it would be worth it to see the Sansa and Sandor story play out properly (and I think her age in the story is why they didn't go there). Also I think my biggest disappointment was not seeing Arya's story, the whole interplay with Jaqen, the bathhouse, weasel soup, and it all came together in the scene with her saying the rain will wash the blood away from her hands.

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I had not realized the parallel between the two Clegane brothers - Sandor being the obvious protector for Sansa, who is learning the Game whilst Robert Strong is Cersei's protector. Thanks for pointing that one out brashcandy :) I cannot wait to find out what exactly will play out between these four characters. I do see Sansa bringing Cersei down, but Sandor's time at the QI will play out differently than slaying his brother. Perhaps he will take a path similar to Sansa's and will perform an important act out of compassion in regard to Ungregor, or even Tyrion? His hate for the dwarf may very well be toned down, which will prove to be of importance for Sansa's connection to Tyrion...

I'd hope so, since Sansa as a character is really strongly associated with compassion. It would be sad if she went down that path, and I think Sandor could use a good helping of that medicine as well. Like, he needs to be able to believe that the world isn't just shit, which is basically what his defence mechanism used to be. If you expect it to be shit, it is not going to disappoint you, and you are not going to get surprised or hurt by anything that happens.

It would be far better if he could perform something positive instead of something negative, which I would consider killing UnGregor to be. Even if he happens to be an undead zombie with no head...

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I wanted Arya and Sansa aged up a few years, to their real ages (IRL). Which was I think 14 and 16 respectively during season 2 filming, or thereabouts. There would be tradeoffs, but it would be worth it to see the Sansa and Sandor story play out properly (and I think her age in the story is why they didn't go there). Also I think my biggest disappointment was not seeing Arya's story, the whole interplay with Jaqen, the bathhouse, weasel soup, and it all came together in the scene with her saying the rain will wash the blood away from her hands.

I still think the story will play out properly in the books, where it's always captured my interest :) GRRM messed up the ages, but he seems to have taken an "aw, shucks" approach and is still continuing merrily on with involving them in storylines that would tend to make a modern audience raise an eyebrow or two.

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I'd hope so, since Sansa as a character is really strongly associated with compassion. It would be sad if she went down that path, and I think Sandor could use a good helping of that medicine as well. Like, he needs to be able to believe that the world isn't just shit, which is basically what his defence mechanism used to be. If you expect it to be shit, it is not going to disappoint you, and you are not going to get surprised or hurt by anything that happens. It would be far better if he could perform something positive instead of something negative, which I would consider killing UnGregor to be. Even if he happens to be an undead zombie with no head...

I envision the Sansa vs. Cersei throwdown as going something like this:

- Sansa is in a position of power (Regent? Queen in the North? Only sane woman left in a land of bone and ashes?)

- She will decide that Cersei has suffered enough with her losses, which I assume will be all of her children, as well as her power, and doesn't execute her, but sends her off to the Silent Sisters. This, for Cersei, might even be "cruel mercy" as she has to live in silence and celibacy with her face shrouded.

(The "valonqar" - most likely Jaime, I think - will take care of Cersei permanently, before she gets to join the Sisters, but that won't be anything to do with Sansa)

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Right, and it doesn't matter that Sansa had to leave the cloak behind or if Arya never goes back for Needle (although I hope she does, because in truth, if I ever saw Needle, I'd talk to it, too :)), but that Martin chose these things for them to hide, and that he made it clear what they meant to them.

This is a great point. It's very apparent that both items have a very personal significance for both of them.

Kittykatknits:

Is the only way for a woman in Westeros to obtain their agency giving up their identity? I hope that is not the message that Martin will send with these two sisters?

Off the top of my head I can think of an exception - Meera Reed. She came to Winterfell accompanied by only her younger brother, who is dreamy and withdrawn and, if he's supposed to act as the "family head" is in name only, IF that. Meera is also the one responsible for keeping herself, Bran, Jojen, and Hodor alive on the trek north. Meera is 16, a grown woman by Westeros standards, and in contrast to the restricted lives lead by "maids" most everywhere else, she hunts, travels, and acts as a grown woman without a male protector. I do not know how much that is unique to Crannogmen culture, though. There was also Ygritte, Val, and some of the other Wildling women.

I wonder if we are being shown Meera, Val, etc. - not to mention Dany (a legitimate heir to the throne) and her dragons - as part of a story arc where the old patriarchal conventions of Westeros might start to break down. (And let's not forget Dorne, a much more egalitarian culture than the rest of Westeros.) Not entirely, but enough to leave more women in more positions of power than there were at the beginning of AGOT. I see Cersei's bitterness and cruelty and Sansa's powerlessness as critiques of the patriarchal order.

I do not know if Sansa and Meera will ever meet. But I like to think that there will be more room for Sansa to be her own person - maybe not by 21st Century western standards, but much more room than she had at her beginning. And I see her learning how to carve out this agency, and this space for herself just to be, and also learning how to handle it in a wise and mature way.

This was a really good post KRBD, and Meera Reed often gets lost in the shuffle when we're considering empowered women in the narrative. Considering that Bran has been around this type of woman, and can appreciate her competence and skills, it might mean that if he does return as heir to Winterfell, he would value Sansa's presence as regent and respect her wanting to lead an independent life.

How come we haven't thought of Meera? We've had so many discussion on women in the North, Meera certainly belongs in that discussion. She seems to have quite a bit of control over her life in the same way that the Mormont women do. Then we saw Alys Karstark acting to. Meera is older than Sansa yet we see how she is able to operate with a large degree of autonomy, making the decision to accompany Bran north of the wall. I also got the sense that her father trusts her to act not only as the representative of their family to live a largely independent life. We've had no mention of suitors or arranged marriages for her.

We also see just how much of an influence she has had on Bran, he respects and appreciates her skills. After his time with her, if he does return to WF, I agree with brashcandy, I think this shows that he would respect Sansa's desire to lead an independent life.

Thanks for reminding me of her KRBD.

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Personally, I see Sansa overpowering Cersei with the motive to avenge her father. However, I would be thrilled if she would be able to overpower Cersei with compassion and pity, exactly the kind of traits and weapons Cersei does not understand. Her compassionate nature needs the stength of 'bastard bravery' in order for this scenario to be successfull.

In a way, I feel as if Sansa is the perfect member of the Stark family to resettle the injustice the Starks have suffered - she has the personality to settle the conflict without any bloodshet, unlike Arya. It would be a suprising move for many readers who see Sansa as passive and incapable.

i can see sansa overpowering cersei with her compassion and pity like you said- and which may be things cersei just can't stand to receive from sansa. idk if they will ever see each other again but if they do i can see cersei having her final meltdown and wanting to hurt Sansa one last time, but since nothing would come of that, i bet Sansa would still not be like "Bring me her head!" i think that the way she sansa is maturing will enable her if this moment ever comes to see the pityful sad woman cersei became and how close sansa could've been in following that road, and so instead of rejocing in cersei's downfall she would behave like she did when lancel was hurt during the BBW. he was a lannister and yet she felt the need to help him

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I wonder if Sansa is returned to Cersei, Cersei will throw Sansa in the same chamber where Margaery and her clique are. It would be interesting to see how the interactions would go, and see if Sansa rebukes them for dropping her to the curb after she married Tyrion when someone suggests that she marry Willas, and/or offer emotional support.

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I wonder if Sansa is returned to Cersei, Cersei will throw Sansa in the same chamber where Margaery and her clique are. It would be interesting to see how the interactions would go, and see if Sansa rebukes them for dropping her to the curb after she married Tyrion when someone suggests that she marry Willas, and/or offer emotional support.

It would make for an awkward reunion, wouldn't it? :) I don't think Sansa would concern herself with rebuking them though. At this point, with her insight from LF, she'd be concentrating on winning the fight against Cersei, plus she's naturally not a harsh or vengeful person. What's interesting is that even back in early ASOS Sansa imagines herself to be much more mature than the Tyrell cousins. Given all that she's endured since then, she'd most likely be the one offering them emotional support.

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I thought your gripe was against the term "sham"? The marriage is a sham on a number of fronts.

1. Joff is not the legitimate son of Robert, so he is not the legal king, and Sansa and her family would not grant that he has the right to take her as his ward and marry her off. To anyone. Not just to Tyrion.

2. The idea that Tyrion can protect her from his family is also a lie. Tyrion admits this himself. He cannot even protect himself from them, and when it comes to standing against his father, he always , always toes the line. He may bluster, but in the end, he cannot protect her. It is Tywin reigning in Joffrey, not Tyrion.

3. Further, for all that people like to claim that Tyrion kept Sansa from being used by others in the Game, it is Sansa who transports the poison to the QoT, and Sansa is still LF's pawn, despite any of Tyrion's intentions.

4. Her marriage to Tyrion causes an unreparable rift between her and Robb. By the time he dies, he has completely turned his back on her as a suspected Lannister pawn.

She has no attachment to Tyrion, she never consented to it (despite Tyrion's intentions, Cersei has already threatened her in such a way that she knows she can't refuse), and her marriage to him would not be approved by her family, so how can she see it as anything other than a sham? It is false at not only the emotional level, but also political and economic levels.

Whatever the reader thinks of Tyrion, there is no true component to any aspect of this match. It is against her own wishes, her family's wishes, her own interest, the interest of her family. It gives her no social or political advantage to marry him. Where's the solid foundation? Because Tyrion is more decent to her than required doesn't mean that he lives up to the expectation or responsibility of a real husband.

This is a ridiculous statement, there is no rift between Robb and Sansa, he knows she was forced into the marriage because she could not escape and he could not free her, the rift is between Robb and the Lannisters and because of this situation he had to disown Sansa to protect Winterfell from falling into Lannister's hands.

I for one believe that Sansa understands the reasoning though she hasn't heard of it yet, and I believe she be in agreement to it, as long as she is "married" to Tyrion.

And if it wasn't Tyrion it be some other Lannister.

I'm 90+ percent with you on the sham wedding, just not this part, and if this marriage gets annulled how long do you think it take for Sansa to held in the arms of her siblings? my guess quicker then we could spit.

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A few things I've been wondering lately:

- Given Sandor's dominance in Sansa's life, would it realistic at this point for Martin to introduce another romantic option for her? Do all roads lead to Sandor? Some new perspectives on this would be interesting. (of course he has introduced another option for her already in HtH :) I mean one that we should take seriously)

- Sansa's role as as mother to Sweetrobin. It seems to be a popular opinion that SR represents Sansa's ultimate moral test so to speak. If she saves him, then it essentially means she's saved herself from LF as well. Agree/disagree and is Martin making a larger statement about mothering in the series via this relationship?

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This is a ridiculous statement, there is no rift between Robb and Sansa, he knows she was forced into the marriage because she could not escape and he could not free her, the rift is between Robb and the Lannisters and because of this situation he had to disown Sansa to protect Winterfell from falling into Lannister's hands.

Does he know this, though? I'm remembering his reaction when they got the letter from KL, and it was, essentially "WTF is her problem?" (I want to say the exact words were "what is wrong with her?"). Do we have an indication this changes significantly when he meets up with Catelyn?

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A few things I've been wondering lately:

- Given Sandor's dominance in Sansa's life, would it realistic at this point for Martin to introduce another romantic option for her? Do all roads lead to Sandor? Some new perspectives on this would be interesting.

- Sansa's role as as mother to Sweetrobin. It seems to be a popular opinion that SR represents Sansa's ultimate moral test so to speak. If she saves him, then it essentially means she's saved herself from LF as well. Agree/disagree and is Martin making a larger statement about mothering in the series via this relationship?

If we think of RL situations, don't we tell are children there is more than one fish in the sea, so even though there is a connection between Sansa and Sandor it , doesn't mean a lasting romance, and really she has many years ahead of her.

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This is a ridiculous statement, there is no rift between Robb and Sansa, he knows she was forced into the marriage because she could not escape and he could not free her, the rift is between Robb and the Lannisters and because of this situation he had to disown Sansa to protect Winterfell from falling into Lannister's hands.

I for one believe that Sansa understands the reasoning though she hasn't heard of it yet, and I believe she be in agreement to it, as long as she is "married" to Tyrion.

And if it wasn't Tyrion it be some other Lannister.

I'm 90+ percent with you on the sham wedding, just not this part, and if this marriage gets annulled how long do you think it take for Sansa to held in the arms of her siblings? my guess quicker then we could spit.

I thought it was pretty horrible of Robb to disinherit her. When fake!Arya is forcibly married off, the reaction of the populous is to rescue her... not to disinherit her. Robb basically gives up on Sansa. Sansa *might* understand his reasoning if she ever learns of it, but it would still be incredibly hurtful.

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I thought it was pretty horrible of Robb to disinherit her. When fake!Arya is forcibly married off, the reaction of the populous is to rescue her... not to disinherit her. Robb basically gives up on Sansa. Sansa *might* understand his reasoning if she ever learns of it, but it would still be incredibly hurtful.

And this could be a big hurt, because I feel King Robb should have sent a statement that he and the North do not recognized the marriage of Tyrion or any other southern house to his sister, at least she know he cares, Sansa dosen't even know that Braieene and Jamie are looking for her per her lady mother's last orders.

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Does he know this, though? I'm remembering his reaction when they got the letter from KL, and it was, essentially "WTF is her problem?" (I want to say the exact words were "what is wrong with her?"). Do we have an indication this changes significantly when he meets up with Catelyn?

I'll have to recheck the Cat chapters, but even when they got the letter written from Sansa, they both knew she was forced by Cersei as they say they are Cersei's words.

Really does anyone believe that a 12 year old would freely marry a despised individual from a house that slaughter her family?

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