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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VIII

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I thought it was pretty horrible of Robb to disinherit her. When fake!Arya is forcibly married off, the reaction of the populous is to rescue her... not to disinherit her. Robb basically gives up on Sansa. Sansa *might* understand his reasoning if she ever learns of it, but it would still be incredibly hurtful.

I can't check the chapters right now, but do we know Robb disinherited her? I thought he simply legitimized Jon to keep Winterfell from the Lannisters.

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I'll have to recheck the Cat chapters, but even when they got the letter written from Sansa, they both knew she was forced by Cersei as they say they are Cersei's words.

Really does anyone believe that a 12 year old would freely marry a despised individual from a house that slaughter her family?

Isn't it possible that he might resent her for not refusing, though? I mean, in the scene where they get the letter, Robb's pretty much an audience surrogate. Look at how the audience reacts to Sansa, and then tell me it's ridiculous.

And re: Cersei's words, I had the feeling he thought she was a parrot, but not necessarily a caged one. Bran's excuse is "she lost her wolf" - i.e. "that's the reason she's going along." Both, I think, are misreading her situation, but while Robb resents her, Bran is the one who sympathizes.

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This is a ridiculous statement, there is no rift between Robb and Sansa...

Ridiculous? Hardly. The break between them is political more than personal, perhaps, but it is there all the same. She is deemed unworthy of carrying on the Stark inheritance and all his bannermen will think twice about supporting her, whatever she may end up doing to reestablish the line in the North. How could this be considered something less than a rift? Robb drew a line, and Sansa was cast on the other side of it with her enemies. Yes, he had reasons for doing so, good ones, but this doesn't change the fact that she has been politically marked apart from her siblings and everyone is free to speculate on her loyalties even more than they do already. Calling it a rift is hardly ridicule-worthy.

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I can't check the chapters right now, but do we know Robb disinherited her? I thought he simply legitimized Jon to keep Winterfell from the Lannisters.

I don't have the books on hand either. :dunno:

Edit: I also love your profile pic. Sansa reminds me a bit of an Austen heroine.

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Does he know this, though? I'm remembering his reaction when they got the letter from KL, and it was, essentially "WTF is her problem?" (I want to say the exact words were "what is wrong with her?"). Do we have an indication this changes significantly when he meets up with Catelyn?

Sansa's letter to her family is brought up twice. The first time is when Robb and Bran are still in WF. Robb is upset by the letter. Then, Robb later shows it to Cat when they reunite at Moat Cailin. She reads it and points out that Sansa may have wrote it but it is Cersei's words. Robb figures it out at this point but didn't' realize it at first.

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I can't check the chapters right now, but do we know Robb disinherited her? I thought he simply legitimized Jon to keep Winterfell from the Lannisters.

We do not know what happened 100%. Robb and Catelyn talked about it in front of his bannermen and it was decided that Jon would be made his heir and that Sansa would be disinherited. But, the actual scene where the will is created was done off-screen so it is possible the will is different than we think, we just don't know.

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And this could be a big hurt, because I feel King Robb should have sent a statement that he and the North do not recognized the marriage of Tyrion or any other southern house to his sister, at least she know he cares, Sansa dosen't even know that Braieene and Jamie are looking for her per her lady mother's last orders.

It's weird that Robb does recognize the marriage as valid.

"If I could Id take his ugly head off. Sansa would be a widow then, and free. There’s no other way that I can see. They made her speak the vows before a septon and don a crimson cloak."

You're totally right, shows what a great politician Robb was... didn't even think about making some sort of public statement. If he just put the word out there, maybe people like Stannis wouldn't be going around calling her Lady Lannister like she wanted the whole thing. He didn't have to recognise the marriage just because they said vows. After all, she was a minor, Robb didn't give consent, and he didn't recognise Joff's authority over Northeners...

How do the other Northeners see the Sansa/Tyrion marriage? Do they see it for what it was or do they think Sansa betrayed the North?

I thought it was pretty horrible of Robb to disinherit her. When fake!Arya is forcibly married off, the reaction of the populous is to rescue her... not to disinherit her. Robb basically gives up on Sansa. Sansa *might* understand his reasoning if she ever learns of it, but it would still be incredibly hurtful.

Yes... I think she'll be pretty hurt when she finds out. Robb never even tried to send anyone to rescue her like Tyrion did with Jaime. But in the end maybe her not having a claim over Winterfell anymore will free her to do whatever she wants and will allow her to find someone who loves her for herself and not her lands...

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Isn't it possible that he might resent her for not refusing, though? I mean, in the scene where they get the letter, Robb's pretty much an audience surrogate. Look at how the audience reacts to Sansa, and then tell me it's ridiculous.

And re: Cersei's words, I had the feeling he thought she was a parrot, but not necessarily a caged one. Bran's excuse is "she lost her wolf" - i.e. "that's the reason she's going along." Both, I think, are misreading her situation, but while Robb resents her, Bran is the one who sympathizes.

But she did refuse the only way she could, verbally to Cersei and physically to Tyrion, Robb wasn't there we were.

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Yes... I think she'll be pretty hurt when she finds out. Robb never even tried to send anyone to rescue her like Tyrion did with Jaime. But in the end maybe her not having a claim over Winterfell anymore will free her to do whatever she wants and will allow her to find someone who loves her for herself and not her lands...

I don't really buy that argument at all.... It's basically trying to take away an option for her. Couldn't she pass on the inheritance if she wanted? This is trying to decide for her.

Edit: Also, why does Sansa's life have to revolve around finding a man? What if she wants to rebuild Winterfell?

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I don't really buy that argument at all.... It's basically trying to take away an option for her. Couldn't she pass on the inheritance if she wanted? This is trying to decide for her.

Edit: Also, why does Sansa's life have to revolve around finding a man? What if she wants to rebuild Winterfell?

Well the thing is, while Sansa wants to stay in Winterfell she's tired of being traded around for her claim. And if she was the "last Stark" like some people believe, then I doubt she could pass on the inheritance, especially if someone married her for it.

Sansa's life does not have to revolve around finding a man nor have I ever said anything to that effect. Her whole life she wanted a husband and kids, and a happy home of her own, and right now she's so fed up with being a pawn that she thinks she doesn't ever want to be married. Which imo is pretty sad, she's throwing her dream away. What I want is for her to gain control of her life again, regardless of whether she marries or not, but for her, according to her POV, it's important that someone loves her for herself and not her claim.

And yes, of course she wants to rebuild Winterfell. She doesn't need to be the heir for that. She can be Bran or Rickon's regent.

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Ridiculous? Hardly. The break between them is political more than personal, perhaps, but it is there all the same. She is deemed unworthy of carrying on the Stark inheritance and all his bannermen will think twice about supporting her, whatever she may end up doing to reestablish the line in the North. How could this be considered something less than a rift? Robb drew a line, and Sansa was cast on the other side of it with her enemies. Yes, he had reasons for doing so, good ones, but this doesn't change the fact that she has been politically marked apart from her siblings and everyone is free to speculate on her loyalties even more than they do already. Calling it a rift is hardly ridicule-worthy.

I might have overstated ridiculous, but I still stand there is no riff between the two, Robb was a good military man but sucked worst than Ned in the politics dept. especially wedding Jeyne ( I put some blame on his bannermen also with this), not protesting his sister's marriage, probably more if I could think of them.

Cat and Bran could see it wasn't Sansa's fault, even Jon says Sansa is still the lady of Winterfell but Robb is inept to the game being played by Tywin.

If Sansa can deliver food and men to the north during winter they're not going to refuse it, and she's Neds daughter she can demand trial and if her maiden head is intact and she gets to tell HER story she's welcomed with open arms, she has to get free first, and it's one of my bitter sweet scenarios that she may stay a lannister ( oh that would suck)

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Well the thing is, while Sansa wants to stay in Winterfell she's tired of being traded around for her claim. And if she was the "last Stark" like some people believe, then I doubt she could pass on the inheritance, especially if someone married her for it.

Sansa's life does not have to revolve around finding a man nor have I ever said anything to that effect. Her whole life she wanted a husband and kids, and a happy home of her own, and right now she's so fed up with being a pawn that she thinks she doesn't ever want to be married. Which imo is pretty sad, she's throwing her dream away. What I want is for her to gain control of her life again, regardless of whether she marries or not, but for her, according to her POV, it's important that someone loves her for herself and not her claim.

And yes, of course she wants to rebuild Winterfell. She doesn't need to be the heir for that. She can be Bran or Rickon's regent.

I guess I don't think that a disinheritance from Robb makes her any more likely to be free to choose a husband. However, I do think that if she is ever free a legitimate, supported claim to the north will give her agency she would otherwise not have. Also if there is someone she can be regent to, there is someone she can pass the claim on to.

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I guess I don't think that a disinheritance from Robb makes her any more likely to be free to choose a husband.

Why?

I think it makes her less likely to be married off again for her claim, which is what she doesn't want.

However, I do think that if she is ever free a legitimate, supported claim to the north will give her agency she would otherwise not have.

Like Sansa as Queen in the North? I'd like to see that as well. (I guess I should have clarified that I don't *want* her to be disinherited... but I believe she was)

Also if there is someone she can be regent to, there is someone she can pass the claim on to.

Yes, but right now she's believed to be the "last Stark", so she wouldn't have anyone to pass the claim to. If the other Starks (or one of them) showed up then she'd have more options. But right now, her thinking she's the only one left, if she finds out about the will I think it would crush her, because she would think she can't go back to Winterfell.

ETA: am I making sense today? because i'm super sick. :frown5:

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But she did refuse the only way she could, verbally to Cersei and physically to Tyrion, Robb wasn't there we were.

Right, but the question about whether there's a rift isn't about what we know. It is about what Robb knows, and how he feels.

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A few things I've been wondering lately:

- Given Sandor's dominance in Sansa's life, would it realistic at this point for Martin to introduce another romantic option for her? Do all roads lead to Sandor? Some new perspectives on this would be interesting. (of course he has introduced another option for her already in HtH :) I mean one that we should take seriously)

Yes, it is very possible. However, it's also not one I want to dwell on or think about until I'm forced to. :) We have HtH but I don't think he's going to be that kind of a romantic option. I also think it's likely we are going to see her Sandor thoughts escalate too. In her final Feast chapter, she has her though on his kiss saying "that day was done and so was Sansa". Except, after that, we still saw Sansa. So, that day and Sansa are not done yet.

- Sansa's role as as mother to Sweetrobin. It seems to be a popular opinion that SR represents Sansa's ultimate moral test so to speak. If she saves him, then it essentially means she's saved herself from LF as well. Agree/disagree and is Martin making a larger statement about mothering in the series via this relationship?

This is my theory of what will happen. Something needs to stir Sansa to action, a risk of some sort that is enough to counteract whatever sense of safety and security she has right now. As to the message, yes, I do think there is one there. I'm doing some thinking on it and will respond a bit later.

How do the other Northeners see the Sansa/Tyrion marriage? Do they see it for what it was or do they think Sansa betrayed the North?

The Northmen don't think on here at all, either those with Stannir or Roose. The only mention she gets at all is when Jon talks to Stannis about her. Jon points out that she is the rightful heir and Stannis replies back that he'd never let "Lady Lannister" have it.

I guess I don't think that a disinheritance from Robb makes her any more likely to be free to choose a husband. However, I do think that if she is ever free a legitimate, supported claim to the north will give her agency she would otherwise not have.

Her claim makes Sansa more of a pawn, a fact she is very aware of. If she is the heir, she has the responsibility to produce an heir. Families would be very aware of this and will seek to manimuplate, control, influence her for that fact. In addition, when/if Sansa marries in to a powerful family, she would then have a Lord Husband- notice the use of the word "Lord" there. Sansa's claim has turned her in to a piece of meat that can be used and it will stay this way until she is able to lose that claim.

Also if there is someone she can be regent to, there is someone she can pass the claim on to.

I'm not following you here. If she is regent, that means that she would rule on behalf of the person who actually has the claim. So, if Rickon is found, she would rule as regent until he turns 16. She would not pass her claim on to anyone.

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Also I think my biggest disappointment was not seeing Arya's story, the whole interplay with Jaqen, the bathhouse, weasel soup, and it all came together in the scene with her saying the rain will wash the blood away from her hands.

Yeah I hear you there. Idefintely missed not getting to see Jaqen in the bathhouse ;-)

i can see sansa overpowering cersei with her compassion and pity like you said- and which may be things cersei just can't stand to receive from sansa. idk if they will ever see each other again but if they do i can see cersei having her final meltdown and wanting to hurt Sansa one last time, but since nothing would come of that, i bet Sansa would still not be like "Bring me her head!" i think that the way she sansa is maturing will enable her if this moment ever comes to see the pityful sad woman cersei became and how close sansa could've been in following that road, and so instead of rejocing in cersei's downfall she would behave like she did when lancel was hurt during the BBW. he was a lannister and yet she felt the need to help him

This reminds me yet again of Jane Eyre. We have noted before that there are quite a few similarities between Sansa and Jane. This comment about how Sansa would treat Cersei if she ever had the power over her reminded me of the scene when Jane goes back to see her Aunt Reed as she lay dying. Jane could have been bitter to her Aunt, who treated her terribly, and spit in her face, but instead Jane chooses to forgive her and take care of her in the end. Her Aunt can't even understand why and fully expects scorn and disdain from Jane but Jane does the opposite. I think this would hold true for Sansa with Cersei.

A few things I've been wondering lately:

- Given Sandor's dominance in Sansa's life, would it realistic at this point for Martin to introduce another romantic option for her? Do all roads lead to Sandor? Some new perspectives on this would be interesting. (of course he has introduced another option for her already in HtH :) I mean one that we should take seriously)

- Sansa's role as as mother to Sweetrobin. It seems to be a popular opinion that SR represents Sansa's ultimate moral test so to speak. If she saves him, then it essentially means she's saved herself from LF as well. Agree/disagree and is Martin making a larger statement about mothering in the series via this relationship?

Yes, I believe Sweetrobin will be Sansa's morality test and that she will save him. In doing so she will save herself, her true nature, compassion and morality. Whether their relationship represents a statement about mothering in general is an interesting question. Perhaps in the sense that if Sansa were to go down the dark path and not saveSweetrobin, then that could be the end of her old hopes as Sansa, one of which was to be a mother. In essence it could be a statement that she wouldn't deserve to be a mother if she loses her morality and compassion.

Also, I have found that the Brienne/Pod relationship seems to mirror the Sansa/Sweetrobin relationship quite a bit and I do think Brienne becomes a mother figure to Pod. I don't know if it's a statement on motherhood in general but I do see how there are surrogate mothers out there who could be great mothers in their own right, and both of them are good decent women who have expressed interest in being a mother and both seem to be very good at it. I think if Sweetrobin ends up growing strong and healthy and normal under Sansa's care, that would be making a strong statement on motherhood, but we haven't gotten there yet.

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hmm..Interesting to note the differences between how Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is perceived compared to "Arya"'s to Ramsay. Sansa is consistently referred to as Lady Lannister, while Jeyne gets referred to as the Ned's daughter and I'm not sure if she's ever called Lady Bolton. Could it just be the difference between actually witnessing it and not? Not really sure that makes sense though. Everyone seems to want to go off and rescue Jeyne, while Sansa is pretty much just ignored. Could just be the difference in situation I suppose- Lannisters are operating from a position of strength in ASOS and Sansa is at Lannister HQ, well out of reach for any good Northman, while Bolton's are never really operating from a position of strength in ADWD and they happen to be at "Stark" HQ. Anyone have a better idea?

Anyway, this might be controversial on here, I don't know how many of you are San-San shippers lol, but I don't think they'll get back together, at least not romantically. Personally, I just think there's too much baggage there, Sansa deserves better imo. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see them interact again but definitely would not be a fan of a happy ever after between the two of them. I don't think it's possible anyway.

The thing is...I don't really see any potential matches out there for Sansa at this point. Maybe she will never get married...She's already so sick of it anyway at this point. I could see her becoming Lady of Riverrun or something like that. Still need to meet Harry the Heir at this point though- no telling what he's really about besides for being a young ladies man. I guess FAegon is the other young available person on the board, but I can't see Sansa going for that nor can I see FAegon not waiting for Dany (or if he doesn't, it will probably be Arrianne). Not really anything out there huh?

How about the Karstark heir who is a captive? Do we know anything about him? Alys seemed pretty cool, maybe he takes after his sister and hopefully not his insane father. The surviving Manderley heir? I'd imagine Willas Tyrell is off the table right? She's not gonna want to go back to the Tyrells, plus Willas will still be grieving for Oberyn.

Anyone got any possibilities? Or do you think she's just not meant to be married at all?

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Arya_Nym: your observations on Arya are great. Have you thought of doing a similar thread to this one with her chapters? You've picked up a lot of foreshadowing I've missed or not seen mentioned elsewhere. :)

I wonder why people would criticize Arya for her reactions to Sansa's marriage? I thought it was rather appropriate considering her age and her knowledge of events at the time. The Hound understood what was going on but he's older and would have a much better understanding of the political situation that Arya. Her reactions seemed very understandable to me.

Also, have you considered doing an Arya re-read here on this board? I know it would be an ambitious undertaking but I think it would be a great experience. I see many readers who seem to view Arya as a warrior princess BAMF type and I think that misses a lot of the nuance out of her character.

Thank you. Maybe one day. I don't think that I can do it in the near future.

Anyways, about "Arya" she couldn't be disinherited because Robb died before the marriage. I think Robb accepted the marriage because apparently if you are deemed a traitor the king can step in your place.

The king can dispose of a lady's hand, standing in her father's place, if her direct male kin are declared traitors (III: 317)

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.3.1./

As for "Arya"'s treatment it depends on which Northmen. The Northmen present certainly did not help her. She was allowed to be raped and possibly worse. I heard Ramsay might have had her doing stuff with dogs.

Roose was only worried about them hearing that she was crying.

It's unclear how many of them knew about her identity though so maybe they didn't care for an imposter. There are threads that said based on Manderly calling for the Danny Flint song which someone is pretending to be something they're not might mean that they know.

In the Theon chapter I believe it's Mors Umber that grills her. He's not even really nice to her. He's not mean but there's no sorry about what you went through and other pleasantries like that. They just quickly disposed of her.

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Yes, I believe Sweetrobin will be Sansa's morality test and that she will save him. In doing so she will save herself, her true nature, compassion and morality. Whether their relationship represents a statement about mothering in general is an interesting question. Perhaps in the sense that if Sansa were to go down the dark path and not saveSweetrobin, then that could be the end of her old hopes as Sansa, one of which was to be a mother. In essence it could be a statement that she wouldn't deserve to be a mother if she loses her morality and compassion.

Also, I have found that the Brienne/Pod relationship seems to mirror the Sansa/Sweetrobin relationship quite a bit and I do think Brienne becomes a mother figure to Pod. I don't know if it's a statement on motherhood in general but I do see how there are surrogate mothers out there who could be great mothers in their own right, and both of them are good decent women who have expressed interest in being a mother and both seem to be very good at it. I think if Sweetrobin ends up growing strong and healthy and normal under Sansa's care, that would be making a strong statement on motherhood, but we haven't gotten there yet.

Interesting thoughts Elba. I agree that this is an important test for Sansa and as you noted would perhaps symbolise her not gaining the role of a true mother in the series. Good comparison to Brienne and Pod, and it's notable that Brienne does end up making the choice to save Pod and perhaps sacrifice herself and/or Jaime Lannister in the process. We've seen a little of Sansa's mothering instincts before with Tommen - I'm thinking specifically here of the Joffrey's name day tourney where she and Sandor act almost like parents in supporting and cheering the boy on. SR frustrates and annoys Sansa, but I feel as though their relationship took a positive turn when they made it through the harrowing mountain pass, and hopefully Sansa will find a way to rescue the boy.

hmm..Interesting to note the differences between how Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is perceived compared to "Arya"'s to Ramsay. Sansa is consistently referred to as Lady Lannister, while Jeyne gets referred to as the Ned's daughter and I'm not sure if she's ever called Lady Bolton. Could it just be the difference between actually witnessing it and not? Not really sure that makes sense though. Everyone seems to want to go off and rescue Jeyne, while Sansa is pretty much just ignored. Could just be the difference in situation I suppose- Lannisters are operating from a position of strength in ASOS and Sansa is at Lannister HQ, well out of reach for any good Northman, while Bolton's are never really operating from a position of strength in ADWD and they happen to be at "Stark" HQ. Anyone have a better idea?

I think it's as you said, that Sansa is viewed as largely unreachable by the Northerners, while access to "Arya" is much easier. Ramsay notorious reputation also doesn't help matters, while Tyrion is currently just perceived as a very ugly man and a whoremonger. Also, does anyone besides Stannis - who has his own reasons for trying to dismiss Sansa - refer to her as Lady Lannister? Jon sticks to his guns that she's the rightful heir at least.

Anyway, this might be controversial on here, I don't know how many of you are San-San shippers lol, but I don't think they'll get back together, at least not romantically. Personally, I just think there's too much baggage there, Sansa deserves better imo. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see them interact again but definitely would not be a fan of a happy ever after between the two of them. I don't think it's possible anyway.

Ah don't worry! :) I'm honestly interested in hearing alternative viewpoints. I will challenge them, but it's still interesting ;) Would you mind expanding what you meant about "baggage"?

How about the Karstark heir who is a captive? Do we know anything about him? Alys seemed pretty cool, maybe he takes after his sister and hopefully not his insane father. The surviving Manderley heir? I'd imagine Willas Tyrell is off the table right? She's not gonna want to go back to the Tyrells, plus Willas will still be grieving for Oberyn.

Anyone got any possibilities? Or do you think she's just not meant to be married at all?

It is hard to think of suitable matches, not necessarily because they aren't any but that Sansa herself has changed so much it's difficult to imagine what she will find satisfying anymore. I don't know if mere "niceness" will cut it. Given her thoughts about Lothor Brune I'd imagine those are the qualities she admires in a man - bravery, strength, honor, loyalty, maybe a little sensitive with a compelling backstory :) She also doesn't seem to object to LF's assertion that young girls are happier with older men.

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Anyway, this might be controversial on here, I don't know how many of you are San-San shippers lol, but I don't think they'll get back together, at least not romantically. Personally, I just think there's too much baggage there, Sansa deserves better imo. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see them interact again but definitely would not be a fan of a happy ever after between the two of them. I don't think it's possible anyway.

Hey no worries man... I'm a sansan shipper but I don't want to convert people... I don't think it's gonna happen anyway. I think they're going to meet but I don't think they're going to have anything romantic (even if they totally have a crush on each other). It doesn't matter. I will go down with this ship!

Having spent years shipping Draco/Hermione and Draco/Ginny only to be thwarted by the most boring canon possible in Harry Potter, I think I can take whatever happens to Sansa. Unless it's LF or a Lannister.

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