From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VIII

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I wonder if it is as simple as Sandor "only" being a vehicle through which Sansa gains agency. He's got such a well developed character now it makes me wonder if there wasn't something more planned from the beginning.

It is interesting that the three information power houses all miss out on it: Tyrion, Varys and Littlefinger. I was actually a bit surprised by Varys, since he seems to know everything, but maybe even he suffers from the Tyrion and LF affliction of just being too busy watching all the "important people" that he doesn't care much for a "dull brute" and a "silly little hostage"?

Varys' little birds should have reported that they met at least, although perhaps the talk on the Red Keep and the Serpentine Steps were sort of out of the way and at least the Red Keep scene on the eve before battle, meaning Varys and the little birds may have been employed elsewhere. Both places are also outside, which may make it harder to "listen in"? Even if LF said the Godswood was the only really safe place, if we assume the "little birds" are inside the walls, being outside should offer some protection against the listening in. I also assume that on the Eve of the Battle of the Blackwater, so much else was going on nobody really bothered with what Sansa was doing. Or Sandor for that matter.

It's obvious Varys et al knows that the marriage to Tyrion was not consummated, so they most likely listened in on that conversation and checked what was going on during subsequent nights.

Varys also wasn't present at the riot, so it's perhaps natural he doesn't know every little detail about the conversation.

Judging by how he sends off hedge knights after Sansa's disappearance and the cursory description, I think her disappearance completely came out of left field for him.

Agreed, I think that Sandor and the Sandor/Sansa interactions are not just there to give Sansa agency. I think (and I don't think this is wishful shipper-goggles!) that they are meant to lead to something concrete in the story. Because of what both of them have been put through, it will be interesting to see them meet again more as equals - or even have Sansa doing the rescuing. :)

As to why the likes of Varys and Tyrion don't see what is under the readers' noses - the explanation I have right now is that they don't think that Sansa and Sandor are worth the bother of deep consideration. Just when Tyrion is starting to realize that Sansa is more than just his unwilling child-wife, she disappears. As for Sandor, he's the Lannister family dog (so to speak). And with the war, Joffrey's and Cersei's misrule, and all the general chaos going on, Sansa and Sandor are low on the priority list. Which all the more convinces me that something big (ahem) is going to be going on there. Exactly what or how or when I'm not sure.

I read a crackpot(ish) theory - and if someone knows who came up with it, let me know so I can credit them - that Sansa is going to claim she and Sandor had sex so that she can say she wasn't a virgin when she married Tyrion and thus get her marriage annulled - and wave the bloody cloak as "proof." Since many young aristocratic girls break their hymens through horseback riding (may be how Margaery is found innocent?) it could be that this happened with Sansa.

This is an interesting theory, and it would be wonderful to see Sansa take the initiative in annulling her marriage (instead of, say, Littlefinger whistling up a fake Tysha). I do think that it is in Sansa's interest to keep her marriage intact for now, to frustrate Littlefinger's plans for her; as long as she's technically Tyrion's wife he can't marry her off to HtH, Sweetrobin, or himself.

I want to return to the cloak for a moment - I think it's deeply significant that Sandor left her with his cloak when the Westerosi marriage ceremony includes the groom wrapping his bride in a cloak with his house coat of arms on it. And Sansa kept that cloak...I think it is no accident that this is what Sandor left her. (Sansa gets a cloak spattered with real blood, poor fake Arya gets one spattered with garnets symbolizing blood...)

Kittykatknits, thank you for the interview snippet! I will have to go check out the whole thing. I enjoy looking for the deeper meaning in the symbols GRRM gives us and I'm glad to hear he does it on purpose. (It's a lot more fun than high school English class, for sure...)

[brashcandy]

I think it's a nice confirmation of the analysis that has taken place in the PtP threads so wanted to point it out. :)

Yes, Kittykat :) This jumped out at me as well. And it was quite telling when he says that "it wouldn't be right" for him to confirm the symbols. As we've noted, the reader is a valuable contributor in the production of meaning: Martin will leave these clues etc, but it's up to us to make sense of them. And we do so via the critical cultural theories and analytical tools available to our disposal as modern readers.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I want to return to the cloak for a moment - I think it's deeply significant that Sandor left her with his cloak when the Westerosi marriage ceremony includes the groom wrapping his bride in a cloak with his house coat of arms on it. And Sansa kept that cloak...I think it is no accident that this is what Sandor left her. (Sansa gets a cloak spattered with real blood, poor fake Arya gets one spattered with garnets symbolizing blood...)

Plus, she was wrapping the cloak around herself, even more symbolizing, hello! And he gave her his cloak before, when Joffrey ordered her beaten. So he gave her his cloak twice, I'd say this means something.

[brashcandy]

I read a crackpot(ish) theory - and if someone knows who came up with it, let me know so I can credit them - that Sansa is going to claim she and Sandor had sex so that she can say she wasn't a virgin when she married Tyrion and thus get her marriage annulled - and wave the bloody cloak as "proof." Since many young aristocratic girls break their hymens through horseback riding (may be how Margaery is found innocent?) it could be that this happened with Sansa.

This is an interesting theory, and it would be wonderful to see Sansa take the initiative in annulling her marriage (instead of, say, Littlefinger whistling up a fake Tysha). I do think that it is in Sansa's interest to keep her marriage intact for now, to frustrate Littlefinger's plans for her; as long as she's technically Tyrion's wife he can't marry her off to HtH, Sweetrobin, or himself.

I want to return to the cloak for a moment - I think it's deeply significant that Sandor left her with his cloak when the Westerosi marriage ceremony includes the groom wrapping his bride in a cloak with his house coat of arms on it. And Sansa kept that cloak...I think it is no accident that this is what Sandor left her. (Sansa gets a cloak spattered with real blood, poor fake Arya gets one spattered with garnets symbolizing blood...)

:) That sounds like something that came out of one of the 19 Sandor threads, or the San/San threads that used to be active in the past (before the doom). I think I've crackpot theorised on that happening myself, when we were desperate to think of the bloody cloak having some actual benefit outside of the symbolic value. Obviously in reality a bloody cloak isn't going to fool anyone for being an actual bloody sheet and it looks now like Sansa doesn't even have it, but it was a nice way of imagining Sansa getting a one up on LF and frustrating the HtH marriage pact.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

:) That sounds like something that came out of one of the 19 Sandor threads, or the San/San threads that used to be active in the past (before the doom). I think I've crackpot theorised on that happening myself, when we were desperate to think of the bloody cloak having some actual benefit outside of the symbolic value. Obviously in reality a bloody cloak isn't going to fool anyone for being an actual bloody sheet and it looks now like Sansa doesn't even have it, but it was a nice way of imagining Sansa getting a one up on LF and frustrating the HtH marriage pact.

Yes, she doesn't have the cloak with her at the moment, she basically took nothing out of King's Landing with her. And I don't think they kept the cloak in King's Landing, they probably just threw it away. It's just a symbol in her story. Perhaps it'll be brought back up by someone. Sansa/Alayne thinks about it more than once I believe.

[Lyanna Stark]

Yes, she doesn't have the cloak with her at the moment, she basically took nothing out of King's Landing with her. And I don't think they kept the cloak in King's Landing, they probably just threw it away. It's just a symbol in her story. Perhaps it'll be brought back up by someone. Sansa/Alayne thinks about it more than once I believe.

It's doubtful they threw her things away. The question is whether or not it went up with Tyrion's stuff in the Tower of the Hand when Cersei burnt it. Strangely, this coincides rather nicely with Cersei sending LF a load of tapestries so my crackpot is that LF got Sansa's stuff wrapped in the tapestries and he's going to bring it to her in the Vale.

[brashcandy]

It's doubtful they threw her things away. The question is whether or not it went up with Tyrion's stuff in the Tower of the Hand when Cersei burnt it. Strangely, this coincides rather nicely with Cersei sending LF a load of tapestries so my crackpot is that LF got Sansa's stuff wrapped in the tapestries and he's going to bring it to her in the Vale.

Ooooh, I like this idea Lyanna :)

[Alissa]

Hmm, interesting ideas to muse over! I surmise that one reason why the S/S

Agreed, I think that Sandor and the Sandor/Sansa interactions are not just there to give Sansa agency. I think (and I don't think this is wishful shipper-goggles!) that they are meant to lead to something concrete in the story. Because of what both of them have been put through, it will be interesting to see them meet again more as equals - or even have Sansa doing the rescuing. :)

Now that would be really nice :)

As to why the likes of Varys and Tyrion don't see what is under the readers' noses - the explanation I have right now is that they don't think that Sansa and Sandor are worth the bother of deep consideration. Just when Tyrion is starting to realize that Sansa is more than just his unwilling child-wife, she disappears. As for Sandor, he's the Lannister family dog (so to speak). And with the war, Joffrey's and Cersei's misrule, and all the general chaos going on, Sansa and Sandor are low on the priority list. Which all the more convinces me that something big (ahem) is going to be going on there. Exactly what or how or when I'm not sure.

It certainly seems that way. But it is very strange, considering the interest LF has in Sansa. And also as far as Tyrion is concerned: as Kittykat observed, Tyrion is very suspicious of everyone. What is more, we know of Sandor's deep dislike for Tyrion. Surely Tyrion must have noticed it too. And wasn't Sandor answerable to Cersei of all people before he became Joffrey's sworn shield? Not sure if I remember correctly though. Anyway, more reason for Tyrion to be wary of him rather than the opposite, even if Sandor is nothing but the "Lannister family dog" to him. Having said that, I can't come up with a better explanation, unless what Lyanna Stark said: the places they meet are usually outside and/or it's just before/during a riot/battle so everyone is really preoccupied. Still not entirely satisfying though.

I read a crackpot(ish) theory - and if someone knows who came up with it, let me know so I can credit them - that Sansa is going to claim she and Sandor had sex so that she can say she wasn't a virgin when she married Tyrion and thus get her marriage annulled - and wave the bloody cloak as "proof." Since many young aristocratic girls break their hymens through horseback riding (may be how Margaery is found innocent?) it could be that this happened with Sansa.

This is an interesting theory, and it would be wonderful to see Sansa take the initiative in annulling her marriage (instead of, say, Littlefinger whistling up a fake Tysha). I do think that it is in Sansa's interest to keep her marriage intact for now, to frustrate Littlefinger's plans for her; as long as she's technically Tyrion's wife he can't marry her off to HtH, Sweetrobin, or himself.

I want to return to the cloak for a moment - I think it's deeply significant that Sandor left her with his cloak when the Westerosi marriage ceremony includes the groom wrapping his bride in a cloak with his house coat of arms on it. And Sansa kept that cloak...I think it is no accident that this is what Sandor left her. (Sansa gets a cloak spattered with real blood, poor fake Arya gets one spattered with garnets symbolizing blood...)

Sandor's cloak must be one of my favourite symbols in the series ;)

Kittykatknits, thank you for the interview snippet! I will have to go check out the whole thing. I enjoy looking for the deeper meaning in the symbols GRRM gives us and I'm glad to hear he does it on purpose. (It's a lot more fun than high school English class, for sure...)

Yes, me too :)

[Lady Lea]

Thanks for the shoutout, Brash and Kitty :)

I think it's a nice confirmation of the analysis that has taken place in the PtP threads so wanted to point it out. :)

I thought so too - I think it's nice to hear from the author that there IS a lot of symbolism and "easter eggs" in the books, and that we're not just overthinking it.

As to the cloak, my pet crackpot theory is that at least Varys probably knows about it. I'm sure someone went through her things when she disappeared, and there was a freaking bloodied Kingsguard cloak in her cedar chest, among her summer silks. But we don't hear about it in Cersei's POV or anyone's, so maybe someone's keeping it a secret.

(Also, Lyanna, I know this is out of the blue but I was thinking about your theory of "where do whores go? to LF's brothels" and I remembered Ros from the tv show. She leaves Winterfell and where does she go? To LF's brothel. And don't you think they overplay the fact that LF owns brothels in the show? If this ends up being the purpose of Ros in the tv show... well I guess it's better than her having NO purpose)

[Winter's Knight]

It's doubtful they threw her things away. The question is whether or not it went up with Tyrion's stuff in the Tower of the Hand when Cersei burnt it. Strangely, this coincides rather nicely with Cersei sending LF a load of tapestries so my crackpot is that LF got Sansa's stuff wrapped in the tapestries and he's going to bring it to her in the Vale.

But why?

[Kittykatknits]

Hmm, interesting ideas to muse over! I surmise that one reason why the S/S Agreed, I think that Sandor and the Sandor/Sansa interactions are not just there to give Sansa agency. I think (and I don't think this is wishful shipper-goggles!) that they are meant to lead to something concrete in the story. Because of what both of them have been put through, it will be interesting to see them meet again more as equals - or even have Sansa doing the rescuing. :) As to why the likes of Varys and Tyrion don't see what is under the readers' noses - the explanation I have right now is that they don't think that Sansa and Sandor are worth the bother of deep consideration. Just when Tyrion is starting to realize that Sansa is more than just his unwilling child-wife, she disappears. As for Sandor, he's the Lannister family dog (so to speak). And with the war, Joffrey's and Cersei's misrule, and all the general chaos going on, Sansa and Sandor are low on the priority list. Which all the more convinces me that something big (ahem) is going to be going on there. Exactly what or how or when I'm not sure. I read a crackpot(ish) theory - and if someone knows who came up with it, let me know so I can credit them - that Sansa is going to claim she and Sandor had sex so that she can say she wasn't a virgin when she married Tyrion and thus get her marriage annulled - and wave the bloody cloak as "proof." Since many young aristocratic girls break their hymens through horseback riding (may be how Margaery is found innocent?) it could be that this happened with Sansa. This is an interesting theory, and it would be wonderful to see Sansa take the initiative in annulling her marriage (instead of, say, Littlefinger whistling up a fake Tysha). I do think that it is in Sansa's interest to keep her marriage intact for now, to frustrate Littlefinger's plans for her; as long as she's technically Tyrion's wife he can't marry her off to HtH, Sweetrobin, or himself. I want to return to the cloak for a moment - I think it's deeply significant that Sandor left her with his cloak when the Westerosi marriage ceremony includes the groom wrapping his bride in a cloak with his house coat of arms on it. And Sansa kept that cloak...I think it is no accident that this is what Sandor left her. (Sansa gets a cloak spattered with real blood, poor fake Arya gets one spattered with garnets symbolizing blood...) Kittykatknits, thank you for the interview snippet! I will have to go check out the whole thing. I enjoy looking for the deeper meaning in the symbols GRRM gives us and I'm glad to hear he does it on purpose. (It's a lot more fun than high school English class, for sure...)

I enjoy looking for deeper meaning as well. I loved English class, heck, I was a lit. major in college. I was a total nerd.

Can someone explain how his bloody cloak could be used to annul the marriage? I'm not sure I'm understanding how it would work? Is the theory that she could say that she lost her virginity to someone else so the marriage isn't valid?

I agree that neither of them are very high on the priority list but I think Cersei would take an interest if she resurfaces. I think that Sandor's bigger problem will be Saltpans rather than the desertion.

Yes, Kittykat :) This jumped out at me as well. And it was quite telling when he says that "it wouldn't be right" for him to confirm the symbols. As we've noted, the reader is a valuable contributor in the production of meaning: Martin will leave these clues etc, but it's up to us to make sense of them. And we do so via the critical cultural theories and analytical tools available to our disposal as modern readers.

Yes, I think this hold with the cultural context arguments as well. We as readers should judge and evaluate character actions. We are not passive consumers of the content on the page and to read the books in this manner leads to a very shallow reading.

Plus, she was wrapping the cloak around herself, even more symbolizing, hello! And he gave her his cloak before, when Joffrey ordered her beaten. So he gave her his cloak twice, I'd say this means something.

The cloak symbolism for Sansa is some of my favorites. We know she refused to kneel when Tyrion tried to put his cloak on her, he ended up being forced to use a fool. She could not prevent the cloak being placed on her but she did not want it. Then, LF gives her one when she flees KL but she's ambivalent, she needs him at the moment but I think this tells us she will ultimately refuse his protection. Then she gets the cloak twice from Sandor and his are the only one that she willingly accepts and the words that she uses show the depth of her acceptance I think. The first she says that no velvet had ever felt so fine against her skin. From her description, I can understand what that cloak would feel like against my skin and understand the sense of security that she could gain from it. Later, he leaves his cloak for her during the BBW and she wraps herself in it through the night. She's been terrified and traumatized during the BBW but his cloak again reflects her sense of security. She keeps it beneath her summer silks too, another great image. I'm convinced that the cloak symbolism, if not the actual cloak, will have a future payoff for her.

[Kittykatknits]

Now that would be really nice :) It certainly seems that way. But it is very strange, considering the interest LF has in Sansa. And also as far as Tyrion is concerned: as Kittykat observed, Tyrion is very suspicious of everyone. What is more, we know of Sandor's deep dislike for Tyrion. Surely Tyrion must have noticed it too. And wasn't Sandor answerable to Cersei of all people before he became Joffrey's sworn shield? Not sure if I remember correctly though. Anyway, more reason for Tyrion to be wary of him rather than the opposite, even if Sandor is nothing but the "Lannister family dog" to him.

Actually, this is a really good point! Sandor was Cersei's sworn shield before he was Joffrey's. Back in GOT, Joffrey also says that Sandor is actually his mother's dog in truth. In Clash, we saw Tyrion evaluate the Small Council to see who was loyal to Cersei and found out about Lancel. Yet, he didn't do the same with Sandor.

I pretty much agree with all the speculation I've seen regarding him in KL, their interactions, and what it could mean for the future, it's all very curious though.

[Lady Lea]

Ok so there are new and expanded answers to that interview now. The one about the symbolism is different, and there is one about the Starks which I found very interesting.

GRRM said that Rickard Stark was an only son, but that Robb had a cousin in the Vale, descendant from a Stark grandaunt "or something like it" who had married a lord from the Vale. So, who is this Stark cousin? Have we already seen him without knowing who he was? Will Sansa ever know/ally with him? Is he important? Does LF know about him?

I think it's quite significant that Cat says that, (not counting Jon) the closest relative to the Starks is this cousin, which just happens to be from the Vale.

[brashcandy]

Can someone explain how his bloody cloak could be used to annul the marriage? I'm not sure I'm understanding how it would work? Is the theory that she could say that she lost her virginity to someone else so the marriage isn't valid?

Well the crackpot is that it would be a way for her to claim that her marriage is valid, thereby protecting her from the one to HtH. If she can provide proof that she's not a virgin: the cloak, failing the "virginity test" (due to horseriding), then her marriage remains valid. This of course means remaining bound to Tyrion for a greater length of time, something I can't see Sansa being too pleased about, but the way her marriage keeps popping up makes me think the annulment will not run smoothly.

She keeps it beneath her summer silks too, another great image. I'm convinced that the cloak symbolism, if not the actual cloak, will have a future payoff for her.

Well she has the cloak, she has the (un)kiss, and now she's placing him in the marriage bed. I don't know where GRRM could be going with this.... :)

[brashcandy]

I think it's quite significant that Cat says that, (not counting Jon) the closest relative to the Starks is this cousin, which just happens to be from the Vale.

I'm not sure she'll ever run into this Stark cousin, but she is around another important cousin in Sweetrobin. There are hints that Sansa could be successful where Robb failed, liberating the North and reclaiming Winterfell, so perhaps we should focus a bit more on comparing and contrasting Robb's and Sansa's characters(strengths, weaknesses, general parallels)? It would be interesting if the way to helping the North did run through the Vale afterall :)

[David Selig]

Ok so there are new and expanded answers to that interview now. The one about the symbolism is different, and there is one about the Starks which I found very interesting.

GRRM said that Rickard Stark was an only son, but that Robb had a cousin in the Vale, descendant from a Stark grandaunt "or something like it" who had married a lord from the Vale. So, who is this Stark cousin? Have we already seen him without knowing who he was? Will Sansa ever know/ally with him? Is he important? Does LF know about him?

I think it's quite significant that Cat says that, (not counting Jon) the closest relative to the Starks is this cousin, which just happens to be from the Vale.

IIRC all info we have on this in the books is the following passage:

“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son.” She considered a moment. “Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . .”

Maybe it's Lyn Corbray who has a bit of Stark blood. ;)

[Caro99]

Ok so there are new and expanded answers to that interview now.

could somebody please share the link to this interview? i'm dying to read it!

by the way, if you haven't watched the latest batman film, don't click on the spoiler:

I think my San/San addiction has just gone a little higher. as i watched the movie i couldn't stop thinking that Bane and Marion Cotillard's character resembled a little bit Sansa and Sandor.. idk but i think i'm going to cry my eyes out if george doesn't give us the next book in at the most a couple of years: need more new san/san in my life

..which leads me to liking the theory of Sansa claiming she slept with sandor before her wedding to tyrion. i can just imagine the shock in sandor and LF and tyrion's faces when they learned that. but if sansa had no longer the protection of being a maid, wouldn't it make it easier for LF to move things further? :ack:

[Lady Lea]

could somebody please share the link to this interview? i'm dying to read it!

by the way, if you haven't watched the latest batman film, don't click on the spoiler:

I think my San/San addiction has just gone a little higher. as i watched the movie i couldn't stop thinking that Bane and Marion Cotillard's character resembled a little bit Sansa and Sandor.. idk but i think i'm going to cry my eyes out if george doesn't give us the next book in at the most a couple of years: need more new san/san in my life

..which leads me to liking the theory of Sansa claiming she slept with sandor before her wedding to tyrion. i can just imagine the shock in sandor and LF and tyrion's faces when they learned that. but if sansa had no longer the protection of being a maid, wouldn't it make it easier for LF to move things further? :ack:

It's here, Caro: http://asoiaf.wester...ers/page__st__0

BUT the thread starts with an interview which was written from memory, go straight to the last few pages for the actual, textual answers.

Also, I understand how claiming she isn't a virgin would protect her from the marriage to HtH, but claiming she wasn't a virgin BEFORE marrying Tyrion will help how?

The marriage isn't invalid if the bride isn't a virgin.

[Kittykatknits]

Ok so there are new and expanded answers to that interview now. The one about the symbolism is different, and there is one about the Starks which I found very interesting. GRRM said that Rickard Stark was an only son, but that Robb had a cousin in the Vale, descendant from a Stark grandaunt "or something like it" who had married a lord from the Vale. So, who is this Stark cousin? Have we already seen him without knowing who he was? Will Sansa ever know/ally with him? Is he important? Does LF know about him? I think it's quite significant that Cat says that, (not counting Jon) the closest relative to the Starks is this cousin, which just happens to be from the Vale.

I saw that. I think the expanded info from him on symbolism even further supports what we've been saying. At least that was my take.

Well the crackpot is that it would be a way for her to claim that her marriage is valid, thereby protecting her from the one to HtH. If she can provide proof that she's not a virgin: the cloak, failing the "virginity test" (due to horseriding), then her marriage remains valid. This of course means remaining bound to Tyrion for a greater length of time, something I can't see Sansa being too pleased about, but the way her marriage keeps popping up makes me think the annulment will not run smoothly.

Ah, Ok. This makes much more sense. So, she keeps the marriage to protect her from LG/HtH. Or she stays married, but lives estranged from Tyrion.

I don't think the annulment will go smoothly either, if she gets one at all. We haven't seen anything from Tyrion that he wants one or that he has accepted responsibility for the marriage yet. I'm very skeptical to be honest.

Well she has the cloak, she has the (un)kiss, and now she's placing him in the marriage bed. I don't know where GRRM could be going with this.... :)

Hmmm, brashcandy, I'm not following you here at all. What are you trying to say? :)

IIRC all info we have on this in the books is the following passage: Maybe it's Lyn Corbray who has a bit of Stark blood. ;)

By the gods, no. :eek: I won't worry. Rickon will be the Stark in WF and Sansa will be his regent. It is known.

[Caro99]

It's here, Caro: http://asoiaf.wester...ers/page__st__0

BUT the thread starts with an interview which was written from memory, go straight to the last few pages for the actual, textual answers.

Also, I understand how claiming she isn't a virgin would protect her from the marriage to HtH, but claiming she wasn't a virgin BEFORE marrying Tyrion will help how?

The marriage isn't invalid if the bride isn't a virgin.

thanks a lot lea!! i was on the page of the SoMartin Spake Update, so yeah, had it all wrong.. hopefully if Sansa had to prove her maidenhaid was broken, she would do so with someone more "understanding" like the EB, instead of the new high septon