How would the Northmen do if Ned was commanding Robb's forces?

[Ruissimo]

I disagree with one thing: Robb won his battles with the element of surprise. There would've been many more northern deaths had Ned been the commander BECAUSE he was much more cautious. He still would've won, but with a higher body count (probably on both sides).

[Chaircat Meow]

snip

This is basically a Stark fanboy wet dream.

[E-Ro]

I disagree with one thing: Robb won his battles with the element of surprise. There would've been many more northern deaths had Ned been the commander BECAUSE he was much more cautious. He still would've won, but with a higher body count (probably on both sides).

I agree if ned is in charge the war is decided with pitched battles(probably with robb in the van), not suprise attacks, and the battles would be more decisive.

[E-Ro]

This is basically a Stark fanboy wet dream.

Yes, but also highly probable.

[Chaircat Meow]

I agree if ned is in charge the war is decided with pitched battles(probably with robb in the van), not suprise attacks, and the battles would be more decisive.

Yeah and I don't see any particular reason to think Ned will win. No particular reason to think he will lose either mind you. But if Ned did have a huge army (you suggested 30-40,000) and moved to attack Tywin I expect Tywin would withdraw and try to join up with Jaime rather than give battle. Or assume a defensive position. So it wouldn't be a re-run of the Green Fork.

[E-Ro]

Yeah and I don't see any particular reason to think Ned will win. No particular reason to think he will lose either mind you. But if Ned did have a huge army (you suggested 30-40,000) and moved to attack Tywin I expect Tywin would withdraw and try to join up with Jaime rather than give battle. Or assume a defensive position. So it wouldn't be a re-run of the Green Fork.

Hmmm, perhaps, tywin is rather arrogant though, so who knows. Ned might be able to prevent him from withdrawing though, another force moving to cut him off.(ned has double his numbers in the scenario I presented.)

[barbandazi]

He would have helped Stannis 100% certain.

But if we say Ned was the King in the North instead of Robb, he might have not been as good as Robb. Robb won some exceptional victories which Ned might not have. But Ned was definetly a good commander, one of the best as seen in War of the Usurper, but he was more experienced and knew the Lords better. I don't think he would have put Roose Bolton in charge of a majority of his forces, also, he might have signed a deal with Walder Frey for Robb to marry one of his daughters, but he probably wouldn't have taken Robb along, so he wouldn't have screwed it up. And if he had taken Robb along, Robb wouldn't have been a King that could do whatever he wants, but would have had to listen to his father, which wouldn't have allowed him to marry Jeyne Westerling. But mainly, he wouldn't have sent Theon Greyjoy back to Pyke, although as Catelyn pointed out, that may have not stopped Balon Greyjoy from attacking them anyway, he lost two sons last time he crowned himself king, he may see losing only 1 son this time as a bargain + we all know he never gave a shit about Theon.

[Chaircat Meow]

Hmmm, perhaps, tywin is rather arrogant though, so who knows. Ned might be able to prevent him from withdrawing though, another force moving to cut him off.(ned has double his numbers in the scenario I presented.)

To be honest I don't think he is. He just knows the Stark host, in the book, is of similar numbers, with probably fewer horse, and is commanded by a boy. Its reasonable to think he can win.

I just think Ned would have avoided Robb's rookie mistakes (obviously) and I can't really hazard a guess as to how he would have handled the military stuff. Robb has some of his own skills from Ned so it stands to reason to think Ned is better I guess, but how much better??

[Bourne]

There are too many variables to really answer that question. The reason Robb marched south in the first place was to save Ned, so presumably Ned would have no reason to go south. Do we just exchange Ned for Robb but keep everything else the same? That seem's to be the most reasonable option.

In that case, I think the North wouldn't do quite as well militarily. I believe Ned is a better commander than Robb, but so does Tywin. He wouldn't underestimate Ned like he did Robb. Further, without Robb there's no magic wolf to show the Northmen the way through the mountains to ambush Stafford, so the Lannister forces would almost double. I guess we can assume Ned comes up with the same plan as Robb regarding Jaime. But all-in-all, I think it would put the Starks in a worse position.

Now, they would gain in advantage in that Ned wasn't as likely to make the same kind of mistakes Robb did. But I don't think his presence would change anything regarding the Freys, Boltons, or Greyjoys. Ned's bannerman may have a healthy fear of him (also love), but the other kingdoms don't fear him in the way that everyone fears Tywin. They respect him, but not fear. Frey would still have no reason to let the Starks pass, and both Bolton and Frey wouldn't be scared to betray the North if the price was right. Furthermore, the Greyjoys are reckless idiots and would still invade a weekened North. Balon isn't smart enough to realize he can't really compete with any of the 7 kingdoms and Theon would still be trying to resolve his daddy issues. Ned being alive wouldn't change that.

[Chaircat Meow]

He would have helped Stannis 100% certain.

But if we say Ned was the King in the North instead of Robb, he might have not been as good as Robb. Robb won some exceptional victories which Ned might not have. But Ned was definetly a good commander, one of the best as seen in War of the Usurper, but he was more experienced and knew the Lords better. I don't think he would have put Roose Bolton in charge of a majority of his forces, also, he might have signed a deal with Walder Frey for Robb to marry one of his daughters, but he probably wouldn't have taken Robb along, so he wouldn't have screwed it up. And if he had taken Robb along, Robb wouldn't have been a King that could do whatever he wants, but would have had to listen to his father, which wouldn't have allowed him to marry Jeyne Westerling. But mainly, he wouldn't have sent Theon Greyjoy back to Pyke, although as Catelyn pointed out, that may have not stopped Balon Greyjoy from attacking them anyway, he lost two sons last time he crowned himself king, he may see losing only 1 son this time as a bargain + we all know he never gave a shit about Theon.

I always had the impression Balon didn't give two shits about Theon and that sending him back was totally irrelevant to the Greyjoy attack going ahead. It was a bad move though, because only Theon would think of taking Winterfell.

[Chaircat Meow]

There are too many variables to really answer that question. The reason Robb marched south in the first place was to save Ned, so presumably Ned would have no reason to go south. Do we just exchange Ned for Robb but keep everything else the same? That seem's to be the most reasonable option.

In that case, I think the North wouldn't do quite as well militarily. I believe Ned is a better commander than Robb, but so does Tywin. He wouldn't underestimate Ned like he did Robb. Further, without Robb there's no magic wolf to show the Northmen the way through the mountains to ambush Stafford, so the Lannister forces would almost double. I guess we can assume Ned comes up with the same plan as Robb regarding Jaime. But all-in-all, I think it would put the Starks in a worse position.

Now, they would gain in advantage in that Ned wasn't as likely to make the same kind of mistakes Robb did. But I don't think his presence would change anything regarding the Freys, Boltons, or Greyjoys. Ned's bannerman may have a healthy fear of him (also love), but the other kingdoms don't fear him in the way that everyone fears Tywin. They respect him, but not fear. Frey would still have no reason to let the Starks pass, and both Bolton and Frey wouldn't be scared to betray the North if the price was right. Furthermore, the Greyjoys are reckless idiots and would still invade a weekened North. Balon isn't smart enough to realize he can't really compete with any of the 7 kingdoms and Theon would still be trying to resolve his daddy issues. Ned being alive wouldn't change that.

I agree totally. Good post. Especially the fact that Ned has no reason to go south if he isn't supporting Stannis!

[E-Ro]

He would have helped Stannis 100% certain.

But if we say Ned was the King in the North instead of Robb, he might have not been as good as Robb. Robb won some exceptional victories which Ned might not have. But Ned was definetly a good commander, one of the best as seen in War of the Usurper, but he was more experienced and knew the Lords better. I don't think he would have put Roose Bolton in charge of a majority of his forces, also, he might have signed a deal with Walder Frey for Robb to marry one of his daughters, but he probably wouldn't have taken Robb along, so he wouldn't have screwed it up. And if he had taken Robb along, Robb wouldn't have been a King that could do whatever he wants, but would have had to listen to his father, which wouldn't have allowed him to marry Jeyne Westerling. But mainly, he wouldn't have sent Theon Greyjoy back to Pyke, although as Catelyn pointed out, that may have not stopped Balon Greyjoy from attacking them anyway, he lost two sons last time he crowned himself king, he may see losing only 1 son this time as a bargain + we all know he never gave a shit about Theon.

This is true, I really cant see ned being king in the north. But I disagree with the frey thing, Ned would never have allowed that match. And Balon seems to respect/fear/hate ned I think with ned alive he wont attack the north. And balon attacking the north pretty much did robb in.

[Sinslash]

If Robb were Ned-like, they wouldn't have that deal with the Freys, and if he would later meet Jeyne Westerling, he be free to marry her. If I remember correctly, the reason they didn't attack the Freys was because they didn't want to lower the body count. But they actually could defeat the Freys and go through the bridge by force if the Freys refuse to declare for the Starks/Tullys. Ned-like Robb would probably take that route rather than negotiate. House Frey were bannermen of House Tully so the honorable thing to do and what Ned would expect of them would be to join with their liege lord. Well, there's still the possibility of House Frey betraying them for Lannister favors, though at that point, the Starks/Tullys would be on the winning side and the Freys would want to be on the winning side. Then they would join forces with Renly against the Lannisters. (Since this is assuming they wouldn't declare for Stannis. Most likely, Ned would swear fealty to Stannis as rightful heir.) The end result would be Renly on the Iron Throne and a better Westeros.

Or Stannis could still have Renly murdered (with Mel's shadow baby) and then Starks/Tullys would join forces with Stannis. The end result would be Stannis on the Iron Throne and a somewhat fearful Westeros (since supposedly Stannis inspires no love or loyalty).

Also, Theon would not be given permission by Ned-like Robb to go back to Pyke. Ned-like Robb would not want Balon Greyjoy's help.

[E-Ro]

In that case, I think the North wouldn't do quite as well militarily. I believe Ned is a better commander than Robb, but so does Tywin. He wouldn't underestimate Ned like he did Robb. Further, without Robb there's no magic wolf to show the Northmen the way through the mountains to ambush Stafford, so the Lannister forces would almost double. I guess we can assume Ned comes up with the same plan as Robb regarding Jaime. But all-in-all, I think it would put the Starks in a worse position.

Now, they would gain in advantage in that Ned wasn't as likely to make the same kind of mistakes Robb did. But I don't think his presence would change anything regarding the Freys, Boltons, or Greyjoys. Ned's bannerman may have a healthy fear of him (also love), but the other kingdoms don't fear him in the way that everyone fears Tywin. They respect him, but not fear. Frey would still have no reason to let the Starks pass, and both Bolton and Frey wouldn't be scared to betray the North if the price was right. Furthermore, the Greyjoys are reckless idiots and would still invade a weekened North. Balon isn't smart enough to realize he can't really compete with any of the 7 kingdoms and Theon would still be trying to resolve his daddy issues. Ned being alive wouldn't change that.

Well, if ned stays in the north there would be no story but anyway, Its likely that ned would have more men then robb, not rushing to save anyone and no bannermen would hold men back from him. If tywin and jaimes host combine thats 35,000 men and it could go either way really. But if ned takes them one at a time, he comes out winning. Unless of course he only has 20,000 the same amount robb does, in witch case I really dont know what would happen, perhaps the exact same thing as in the books only without the westerling fiasco.

[E-Ro]

The more I think about this, the less clear cut it becomes. How good is ned? Is he really that much better then robb? If someone could SSM it I would be greatful. I definetly think ned would have a few more northmen though. And would roose be given so much power for so long?

[Chaircat Meow]

The more I think about this, the less clear cut it becomes. How good is ned? Is he really that much better then robb? If someone could SSM it I would be greatful. I definetly think ned would have a few more northmen though. And would roose be given so much power for so long?

Who knows? It stands to reason Ned is better than Robb, having taught him and being 20 years older. On the other hand Robb could just have a natural talent for this sort of thing that Ned lacked and we have no way of knowing really.

[E-Ro]

Who knows? It stands to reason Ned is better than Robb, having taught him and being 20 years older. On the other hand Robb could just have a natural talent for this sort of thing that Ned lacked and we have no way of knowing really.

Ok, I agree, this question is impossible to answer then. All we have is speculation and wishful thinking. The Stark fans will say one thing, The lannister fans another, and no one will be correct, since, well this is all speculation.

[Sinslash]

If Robb were Ned-like, they wouldn't have that deal with the Freys, and if he would later meet Jeyne Westerling, he be free to marry her. If I remember correctly, the reason they didn't attack the Freys was because they didn't want to lower the body count. But they actually could defeat the Freys and go through the bridge by force if the Freys refuse to declare for the Starks/Tullys. Ned-like Robb would probably take that route rather than negotiate. House Frey were bannermen of House Tully so the honorable thing to do and what Ned would expect of them would be to join with their liege lord. Well, there's still the possibility of House Frey betraying them for Lannister favors, though at that point, the Starks/Tullys would be on the winning side and the Freys would want to be on the winning side. Then they would join forces with Renly against the Lannisters. (Since this is assuming they wouldn't declare for Stannis. Most likely, Ned would swear fealty to Stannis as rightful heir.) The end result would be Renly on the Iron Throne and a better Westeros.

Or Stannis could still have Renly murdered (with Mel's shadow baby) and then Starks/Tullys would join forces with Stannis. The end result would be Stannis on the Iron Throne and a somewhat fearful Westeros (since supposedly Stannis inspires no love or loyalty).

Also, Theon would not be given permission by Ned-like Robb to go back to Pyke. Ned-like Robb would not want Balon Greyjoy's help.

And the Greyjoys would probably not attack Winterfell since the Starks still have Theon as hostage. The point of him being a hostage was for his father's good behavior, right?

Even if the Greyjoys still attack the north despite Theon still being a hostage, they probably won't go as far as attacking Winterfell. That had been Theon's idea and he had inside information regarding Winterfell for him to have some confidence in carrying it out.

And yet, even if the Greyjoys still manage to take over Winterfell, the Stark forces would still be able to take it back eventually, without a Red Wedding to delay them. The Greyjoys could however opt to trade Bran/Rickon/both for Theon, if they still cared to take back Theon.

[Frey Pie]

Ok, I agree, this question is impossible to answer then. All we have is speculation and wishful thinking. The Stark fans will say one thing, The lannister fans another, and no one will be correct, since, well this is all speculation.

Ned is the unknown variable. There was the best commander thread where most people said Ned but we dont have many examples of actual battles where he was in charge.

I think it comes down to this. Neither Ned or Tywin would underestimate eachother. However the Freys are never going to hold out against Ned. They bowed to Robb for a marriage but keep in mind Ned could offer Sansa or Rickon or any kid and its a better match than Walder could hop for for one of his lesser sons/daughters. So Ned is going to Riverrun which is the right and honourable thing to do. At this point if Jaime and was smart hed have to retreat, either west to home or east to papa Ty. But the east is no longer safe for Lannisters with Renly and Stannis going at it. Ned than adds how many Riverlanders to his army? Put it this way he has a whole lot more men than Ty, especially if Ty stays where he is. I cant see Ty beating Ned. While we have no first hand accounts of Neds battles hes been instrumental in two wars and so far as we know hes never lost. As far as we know also he was far more experienced a field commander than Tywin. I cant but give the victory to Ned unless Tywin pulls a political master stroke again.

Against Neds experience than is Tywins resources which are vast indeed. However with Ned in charge of such a stronger force, allied to the Tullys i do think Tywins best option is to stay home

Its funny i prefer the Starks name and house but Jaimes my favourite character. If George had written a Ned and Robb versus Tywin and Jaime battle id die happy. The two fathers in command while the sons are the charasmatic figures

[E-Ro]

Its funny i prefer the Starks name and house but Jaimes my favourite character. If George had written a Ned and Robb versus Tywin and Jaime battle id die happy. The two fathers in command while the sons are the charasmatic figures

That would be so interesting to read about. If there is a westeros afterlife these four would all relax together and discuss the finer points of military strategy.