Thoughts on Jaimie "kingslayer" lannister

[Annara Snow]

Don't like the guy at all. I would to see the twins heads on a spike at some point. The whole "everything he does is to protect the ones he loves" cliché has worn on me. You can say that about just about every character.

No, you can't. There are lots of characters in the series who commit murder, rape, torture and pillage just because they like it. There are those motivated just by power/ambition, or for gold, riches and lands. There are others who are motivated by honor or the idea that they're saviors of the realm. Others are motivated by revenge. Characters in the series have all sorts of motivations. Only a handful of them are primarily motivated by the desire to protect those they love.

"if an onion is have full of rot, it's rotten, you're either good or evil"

Sorry had to say it

Quoting a murderous religious fanatic/extremist who burns people and uses black magic to spread her dualist religion is not really a way to help your argument, particularly when her black and white view of the world is clearly exactly the thing that the author sets to prove wrong. If you want black and white morality story about a fight between good guys and bad guys, you're reading a wrong fantasy series.

He is clearly not even in the top 10 of evil people in the series.

He is not even in the top 30 of evil people in the series, if we count all the minor named characters (just the Bloody Mummers and Gregor Clegane's men would be enough to fill almost half of the quota). There are 3 people ahead of him even within his own family.

[Horza]

Since this is a Still Reading thread for Clash of Kings, it would probably be best for anyone who's read beyond it, (or watched S3) to leave it to Clash of Kings-only people.

[TalalOfDorne]

I like him a lot, but I still wont justify the things he did.

[Alaitz]

Spoilers for Season 2 of GOT if anyone cares.

I agree. And it just makes me so angry to see how they messed it up in Season 2 of Game of Thrones, with Jaime first talking friendly with that squire in the cage and then killing him, and another of Karstarks sons too. Those were horrible actions that the book version of Jaime never did! And even though I understand that they couldn't be completely faithful to the book in Season 2, since they had only 10 episodes, I don't see why it was necessary to have Jaime do that.

Anyway, I feel that deep inside Jaime is more good than bad, and since he is one of the few characters that actually have some love for Tyrion instead of condemning him simply because he's a dwarf, it makes me like Jaime a little more. He truly loves his family, and that is at least something.

This is one of the reasons i don't want to watch season 2 and 3, i hear they changed so much from the books, like you say: unnecessary things.

I think season 1 was pretty faithful to the book, especially the episodes written by GRRM and Bryan Cogman respectively.

About Jamie i can't get over the "kill his men" encounter in the streets of KL, i know he was looking out after Tyrion but that's not something a good hearted man would do.

[Blazfemur]

without any spoilers, or giving anythign away, id say jamie has one of the biggest character arcs (other than dany) int he entire series. his evolution as a character is probably just as much as dany.

just have to say, keep reading. always, always keep reading. im on a clash of kings reread. trust me, reading through jamie's eyes kinda defines a lot. though pushing bran was a dick move, as was killing stark's men. but, think of it this way, he has a part to play. as does everyone.

[SpringKing]

The fact that Bran was lossing his grasp and would have fallen anyway if Jaime hadnt first offered his hand somewhat mitigates the morality of his act. That and Jaime saying, loathingly, "The things I do for love."

Contrast this with Arya slitting the throat of Bolton's gate guard at Harrenhall so she could make her escape. An escape that wasnt even necessary had she declared her identity once the Stark sigil was raised over Harrenhall. That guard was an allied soldier as far as she knew at the time. She only whispers "Valar morghulis" (All men must die) as he expires, then consoles herself with the thought that the rain will wash his blood away and make her hands clean again.

Jaime may have actually robbed the gods of Bran's death, his push only causing paralysis, whereas Arya unnecessarily murdered an ostensibly innocent ally.

AGOT's dense complexity and depth of characterization puts LOTR in its shade.

GRRM > JRRT

[Krakenface]

I never understood why he was so hated for killing King Arys. I had always thought it was the one good act he'd done. I've honestly never liked Jamie except for his little quips. On the whole of it, the guy is just an arrogant jerk.

I think generally people don't like the guy because he was disloyal and turned against his oath as opposed to just killing aerys. you find out more in asos though so I can't really elaborate.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

without any spoilers, or giving anythign away, id say jamie has one of the biggest character arcs (other than dany) int he entire series. his evolution as a character is probably just as much as dany.

just have to say, keep reading. always, always keep reading. im on a clash of kings reread. trust me, reading through jamie's eyes kinda defines a lot. though pushing bran was a dick move, as was killing stark's men. but, think of it this way, he has a part to play. as does everyone.

This pretty much sums it up!

[dopplerdog]

The fact that Bran was lossing his grasp and would have fallen anyway if Jaime hadnt first offered his hand somewhat mitigates the morality of his act.

I'd say it doesn't, not in the slightest.

[ftheking]

An escape that wasnt even necessary had she declared her identity once the Stark sigil was raised over Harrenhall.

WRONG She did not trust Bolton and the ilk, because they are not trustworthy. You can hardly blame her for being too smart. Bolton is like a comic book villain, come on. I'd say he could tatoo "evil" on his forhead, but then his sigil hilariously is a flayed man and it would be redundant.

The fact that Bran was lossing his grasp and would have fallen anyway if Jaime hadnt first offered his hand somewhat mitigates the morality of his act.

Yeah, no. Maybe you'd have an argument if her just didn't help him up. Helping him up and then pushing him down was extra shocking to read in how deliberately he chose killing an innocent trusting little boy.

It wasn't the only evil thing he did in the first book. Remember when he confronts Ned after Cat arrests Tyrion. Someone points out that killing Ned is just not an option right now and he agrees and says "Kill his men". Ned had like 3 and Jaime 20. That was murder. Sure, you can cut him some slack again because at least it was done out of loyalty and maybe even love for Tyrion, but it was still evil and disgusting.

I agree he is a grey character and seemingly moving in the right direction.

[3EyedRaven]

Jaime has grown on me as well. I like to think of his past as him just living up to his name. If you have that stigma about you that you're a bad man and a kingslayer, you start to believe it and act on it. Why not? Everybody thinks of him that way anyway. As he becomes a POV, you start to see why he is the way he is. And travelling with Breinne starts to open him up and start to change his views. I almost feel bad for him, GRRM does a great job of that.

[Moriath]

He is hated because he broke his oath to kill the king for utterly selfish reasons.

Personally, I like the character, especially the way he talks to Catelyn(whom I dislike). He is an honest man, and even though he is morally corrupt, it is no worse than the other characters in the series. In fact, I'd say he is morally superior than the likes of Varys and Littlefinger.

[MistressofWhisperers]

I was finishing up a re-read of ACOK and noticed from the Catelyn chapter, this quote from Jaime: "I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act."

 

My mind is blanking, what was that kindness he never did?

[spoon89]

ACoK: Catelyn VII

"Aerys . . ." Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. "Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it, but if you would have me believe you slew him to avenge Brandon Stark . . ."

 

"I made no such claim. The Starks were nothing to me. I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act. At Robert's coronation, I was made to kneel at the royal feet beside Grand Maester Pycelle and Varys the eunuch, so that he might forgive us our crimes before he took us into his service. As for your Ned, he should have kissed the hand that slew Aerys, but he preferred to scorn the arse he found sitting on Robert's throne. I think Ned Stark loved Robert better than he ever loved his brother or his father . . . or even you, my lady. He was never unfaithful to Robert, was he?" Jaime gave a drunken laugh. "Come, Lady Stark, don't you find this all terribly amusing?"

 

[spoiler] Cat perceived his motive for killing Aerys as revenge for Brandon and Rickard, which it wasn't. His actual motivation to kill Aerys isn't revealed until later. [/spoiler]

[MistressofWhisperers]

ACoK: Catelyn VII

"Aerys . . ." Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. "Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it, but if you would have me believe you slew him to avenge Brandon Stark . . ."

 

"I made no such claim. The Starks were nothing to me. I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act. At Robert's coronation, I was made to kneel at the royal feet beside Grand Maester Pycelle and Varys the eunuch, so that he might forgive us our crimes before he took us into his service. As for your Ned, he should have kissed the hand that slew Aerys, but he preferred to scorn the arse he found sitting on Robert's throne. I think Ned Stark loved Robert better than he ever loved his brother or his father . . . or even you, my lady. He was never unfaithful to Robert, was he?" Jaime gave a drunken laugh. "Come, Lady Stark, don't you find this all terribly amusing?"

 

[spoiler] Cat perceived his motive for killing Aerys as revenge for Brandon and Rickard, which it wasn't. His actual motivation to kill Aerys isn't revealed until later. [/spoiler]

 

I don't think Cat perceives that to be his motive at all though (and I'm pretty sure she doesn't "love" him for it). She scoffs at it in your quote above. Unless Jaime is just being facetious there?

[spoon89]

I don't think Cat perceives that to be his motive at all though (and I'm pretty sure she doesn't "love" him for it). She scoffs at it in your quote above. Unless Jaime is just being facetious there?

 

Remember Jamie has been rotting in Riverrun's dungeon, he's drunk on wine and promised to answer her questions.

 

Before the snippet I posted of the conversation between Catelyn and Jamie, Jamie had told the story of the death of Brandon and Rickard in vivid detail, revealing facts that Catelyn had never been told of (and was shocked to learn), and also related how he had, had to stand there and watch it happen, and had been told by fellow Kingsguard that they were there to protect the king not judge him.

 

She thinks that he is trying to make an excuse that he killed Aerys due to his (Aerys's) treatment of the Brandon and Rickard, and expresses her doubt. Jamie can't resist being facetious and disabuses her of the notion but does not reveal his true reason for him breaking his Kingsguard oath.

 

The reason why he did it. [spoiler]The wildfire plot is the reason Jamie executed Aerys. If he hadn't killed the pyromancer hand and Aerys, the plot would have gone off and most of Kings Landing would have been engulfed in wildfire, killing everyone, small folk, refugees, and the soldiers, both loyalist and rebels that were fighting in the city at the time.[/spoiler]

 

Additional material that should not be read unless you've progressed past AFfC [spoiler]Only later on once Jamie talks with Brienne and then later becomes a POV do we learn about the conflicting oaths, protect the innocent vs. protect the king and his choice to break his oath and kill the king, instead of letting the king kill hundreds of thousands of people, most innocent of any wrong doing. [/spoiler]

[MistressofWhisperers]

Got it. Thanks!