How do you feel about the cultures where pillaging/reaving/rape is intrinsic?

[StannisBamfatheon]

I know that ASOIAF is darker medieval fiction/fantasy so there's always going to be a certain amount of "might makes right." Martial prowess and military power will always play a factor. However the cultures that seem completely centered around forcibly subjugating/killing/raping/thieving people irk the fuggin hell out of me. Specifically the Ironborn and the Dothraki.

Concerning the Ironborn i'm happy to see that generally this board despises them. I mean how telling is it that a man who reads fervently is shunned, looked down upon, and mistrusted in their culture? Seriously the "we do not sow" and "we take what is ours" garbage is just complete bullshit. Even Tywin Lannister, generally regarded as the hardest and cruelest man in Westeros only attacked people with proper provocation i.e. Tyrion's kidnapping and the Reynes and Tarbecks rebelling. I mean the Ironborn have never done anything to help Westeros at large. I don't like the fact that rape is not only okay in their culture but basically encouraged and the status quo. Their other values are equally twisted. Just because you can hurt someone or attack them doesn't give you the right to their possessions or to take their life. They're just colossal douches.

The Dothraki are essentially Ironborn on-the-go. I think they getta pass cause of certain elements of their culture that gets romanticized like their horses, the "moon and stars" business, the bells, the braids, the hair etc... but they're still murderous jerks whose culture revolves around attacking innocent people. Rape is again not only acceptable but a reasonable trophy after a battle. Then they apply their silly horse jargon to the situation as the poor woman/girl is "his to mount." Like the Ironborn attacking and harming people without provocation and then dehumanizing their victims after is their modus operandi. It's just deplorable.

Anyway passing the baton to the good people of this board, am I being too harsh or what?

[Bastard of Balmora]

I think it adds to the overall realism of the story to include cultures with this method of operating. It's refreshing to have a savage, unsophisticated society that relies on strength (Dothraki, Ironborn, Wildlings) among all of the court intrigue, arselicking and money grubbing. That being said, none of these are even close to my favorite aspects of the novels. I'd much rather read about the events in the North, or in and around King's Landing.

I consider the Ironborn to be the equivalent of the bully who picks a fight with younger kids, only to run away when someone his own size and age comes along to set him straight. What have they ever contributed?

[Jabronius Maximus]

Well Westeros has been ravaged by war for the majority of the series, and unfortunately the raping/pillaging is a big part of war. So we see a lot of it. And I like the comparison between the Dothraki and Ironborn. The Dothraki are essentially the Ironborn of the East, and they roam on a sea of grass.

I think what this serves is to show that Westeros is a bit more advanced culturally than Essos. Slavery, rape, use of humans as chattel in general doesn't seem as frowned upon in the East than it does in the West. Case in point - Stannis, among other lords, geld men - even their own - who commit rape. Just a look at the political structure shows this - the Ironborn are a nuisance, generally hated by everybody in Westeros because the 'Old Way' is totally backwards and messed up. They have 0 clout in Westeros. Westerosi lords might rape and pillage during war, but it's not their way of life as it is with the Ironborn.

[Gloer]

Do not get fooled by the subjective accounts of the POV characters.

Ironborn are the vikings of the Westeros. Vikings got such a bad reputation because they attacked monks and monasteries.

The churchmen wrote the propaganda.

In real life Viking culture was far more advanced than the ones conquered by the vikings: they had elected kings, election was by merit. You had to prove your worth to you r men.

All men weere free, there was no feudal system that protects corrupt men who bear no arms but rely on duty and faith and all such fabrications and deceptions.

It was easy for vikings to take over Normandy and Brittain as the new overlords since there were no real men left...

Vikings are like Iron islanders. And also Iron born build a. meritocratic societies free from debilitating feoudal hiararchies that sap the4 energy of all other Westerosi kingdoms, growth economy with expansionary sea faring trade and conquest.

You have to conquer in order to break the feudal structure and open Westeros for sea faring trade and liberalism. If Iron born did not help destroying all seven kingdoms, there will be no progress.

They and to some extent Wildlings are the force of good trying to save mankind bound by the bondage of serfdom under a monsterous dragonlord.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Do not get fooled by the subjective accounts of the POV characters.

Ironborn are the vikings of the Westeros. Vikings got such a bad reputation because they attacked monks and monasteries.

The churchmen wrote the propaganda.

In real life Viking culture was far more advanced than the ones conquered by the vikings: they had elected kings, election was by merit. You had to prove your worth to you r men.

All men weere free, there was no feudal system that protects corrupt men who bear no arms but rely on duty and faith and all such fabrications and deceptions.

It was easy for vikings to take over Normandy and Brittain as the new overlords since there were no real men left...

Vikings are like Iron islanders. And also Iron born build a. meritocratic societies free from debilitating feoudal hiararchies that sap the4 energy of all other Westerosi kingdoms, growth economy with expansionary sea faring trade and conquest.

You have to conquer in order to break the feudal structure and open Westeros for sea faring trade and liberalism. If Iron born did not help destroying all seven kingdoms, there will be no progress.

They and to some extent Wildlings are the force of good trying to save mankind bound by the bondage of serfdom under a monsterous dragonlord.

The Ironborn are as much a force for good as "The Empire" from Star Wars or The Death-eaters from Harry Potter.

Get real. You're notta force for good if you take salt-wives and do what Euron did to those poor girls on the Shield Isles.

[Batman]

I remember the scene where Victarian walks away to talk to Euron and the entire feast hall was awash with the sounds of rape and the screams of Serry women as their father and husband was tied to a chair helpless. After that scene I dont understand how anyone could even have a passing like for the Ironborn. The Reader seems a good person and Baelor Blacktyde after his conversion to the Seven but the rest seem revolting. Even Asha and Theon were accepting of the rape and pillage mentality. I understand that they were brought up this way (Asha anyway) but that does not mean that I like them in the context of the book. On top of that the youngest of the Serrys was something like 8-12?

I have the same feelings for khal Drogo. He claims he is going to rape the women of Westeros and does not bat an eye at all the rape that goes on when his Khalshar attacks. He also has no problems selling women and children into slavery to get what he wants.

This stands in contrast to the actions of Ned, Stannis and Edmure. Whether you like them or you dont they have fairly good moral compasses. Ned is disgusted by the actions of the Lannisters in Kings Landing, Stannis gelds the few men (two I think) who commit rape during his attack on the wall and Edmure actually cares about the fate of his people.

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

I think it is historically accurate and also has a modern parallel in many parts of the world even today. I don't agree with it, but I won't let it bother me while reading a book.

[Jabronius Maximus]

I think the 'Old Way' will end up being abolished from the Ironborn culture. I mean, it's called the Old Way for a reason. Asha/Theon have been battered and bruised, and if they somehow come to power, Ironborn culture will drastically change.

Similarly, Dany seems poised to roast the Dothraki Khals, and will likely instill a more lasting 'new way' than her attempt to do so when she was at Drogo's side. And she'll affect the Ironborn culture as well no doubt, as soon as she meets up with Euron or Victarion.

So before the end of the series, we'll probably see reformed boat and horse lords, and I think this reaving culture will be rooted out for good. That's if GRRM shares the OP's views. But I really doubt that's the case

[Julian Rayne]

I despise them. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading about them and I enjoy their POVs but I despise them.

The Dothraki, the Ironborn, they're not just bullies, they're cowards as well. As Balon demonstrates.

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

He's trying to write a fantasy series with authentic, realistic characters. I doubt those changes will be made.

Let's save our ire for the real world rapists.

[The Lord's Kiss]

I'm just glad they gave us Theon Greyjoy, possibly my favorite character in the series. The ironborn may be despicable to us but they do have historical basis as Gloer said, a realistic depiction of Viking culture. I don't really know how to answer why exactly the other kingdoms have never stopped them, but it's possible that they didn't want to get involved and invoke their wrath. Strength at sea goes a long way in Westeros and only the Redwyne fleet and maybe Manderly's will be able to contend with them.

The Dothraki are generally accepted as a necessary evil through Essos, the Free Cities give them gold so they don't sack their cities and the less fortunate ones get totally screwed. It is an awful model and I don't admire them at all but you can see why they do it as opposed to their enemies, the Lamb Men. They get all the spoils of war, and nothing is stopping them. If Genghis Khan could do it, why can't they? It's just GRRM's way of adding some historical flavor into the books, horrible terrible things happened in the course of human history, and his novels are reflecting that. Of course they're wrong, but we can at least enjoy the ride and whatever the fuck Euron's cooking up.

[Ser_Patreck]

Do not get fooled by the subjective accounts of the POV characters.

Ironborn are the vikings of the Westeros. Vikings got such a bad reputation because they attacked monks and monasteries.

The churchmen wrote the propaganda.

In real life Viking culture was far more advanced than the ones conquered by the vikings: they had elected kings, election was by merit. You had to prove your worth to you r men.

All men weere free, there was no feudal system that protects corrupt men who bear no arms but rely on duty and faith and all such fabrications and deceptions.

It was easy for vikings to take over Normandy and Brittain as the new overlords since there were no real men left...

Vikings are like Iron islanders. And also Iron born build a. meritocratic societies free from debilitating feoudal hiararchies that sap the4 energy of all other Westerosi kingdoms, growth economy with expansionary sea faring trade and conquest.

You have to conquer in order to break the feudal structure and open Westeros for sea faring trade and liberalism. If Iron born did not help destroying all seven kingdoms, there will be no progress.

They and to some extent Wildlings are the force of good trying to save mankind bound by the bondage of serfdom under a monsterous dragonlord.

Yes, because the best way to open trade and break the feudal system is to be a plunderer-rapist-thieving culture. The bourgeoisie broke the Feudal system. You know, the "weak men" the "hurr durr ima STRONG" Ironborn and Dothraki despise.

That being side, I completely understand thei place in the story being told. They should be there. They have a point to make. My only problem is when people started saying they found Drogo's speech about raping Westerosi women and making their children slaves "badass", or call Euron raping children while their father and mother watch manly.

I mean...

[SerStinger]

All human cultures are like that, some try to hide it, some don't. But humanity knew only murder and stealing and rape. Therefore the books are realistic in depicting these cultures.

[Free Northman]

The only mistake is to try to get us to identify with POV characters from the Ironborn culture.

Normally, these guys would just be the villains that are opposed and slain by the hero of the story.

In this case, half the Ice and Fire fans appear to get off from reading the tragically beautifull story of the "poor guy" that is Theon, or the "independently spirited" Asha, or the "bad-ass" Victarrion.

In real life, these guys are the epitome of evil - coming to your peacefull fishing village, killing your men, raping your women and taking all your food, leaving your children to die of starvation and abandonment.

These are the people that need to be wiped from the face of the earth by righteous men. Balon, Theon, Asha, Victarrion, all of them must be destroyed for good men and women to live in peace.

I don't feel ANY sympathy for any of them, Asha and Theon included.

[CoolGirlsMurderFriend]

I'd rather have a more realistic book that has to be supplemented with those PoV's than a jaded, all King Robert ignoring the truth all the time kind of thing.

[Winter's Knight]

Disgusting, disquieting and unrealistic.

[The Sleeper]

Going back far enough, everybody's ancestors lived by stealing each other's goats. It's ugly but it's the truth. Besides, is feudalism that different? A military caste living off the labor of the majority of the population, over who they have power of life and death.

[Sevumar]

I think they are a necessary component of medieval fantasy, if it's trying to be somewhat realistic about what life was like in the world's various medieval cultures. It's not true to history in every detail, but the difficulty of life, the unfairness of society, and the brutality with which the powerful often conducted themselves are all things that happened in cultures at this technological level. Few people had the interests and well-being of the lower classes of society in mind. Practical rulers knew they could only push people so far before they fought back, but fear and a lack of resources made people tolerate some pretty awful living conditions.

People should find parts of the books disturbing; we're meant to be horrified about many of the things that characters do, say, or experience. There is a real problem with fans expressing admiration of the cultures or individuals who commit atrocities in the course of the story. That's the less savory side of this fandom.

Disgusting, disquieting and unrealistic.

Unrealistic? In what way? Other than the obvious things like the size of Dothraki khalasars or the proportion of slave populations in some parts of the world...

[The Sleeper]

Disgusting, disquieting and unrealistic.

I agree that it is disgusting and disquieting but if you tihnk it is unrealistic, I am afraid that you have a romanticised view of world history.

[sillent]

Makes you wish Tywin led the charge against the Ironborn rebellion, he would've probably torched all the islands and everyone inside of it. They're the parasites of Westeros, and they only get away with it because they aren't that many of them.

Completely agree, I hate them and the Dothraki. Though personally I feel like I hate the Ironborn more because well, they seem more educated to me so the fact that they stick to these 'crude' ways makes it even more appalling.

In terms of rape being the spoils of war though, thats not limited to the Dothraki it's been established in any war/battle, people usually ending up raping the losers. Cersei talks about it in Blackwater, it happened in the sack of Kings landing, and signs of it all over Westeros during the WotFK.