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R+L=J v.30


Xray the Enforcer

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grrr Now I'm confused AGAIN. I did ask if this whole R+L=J would still leave Jon Snow a bastard (this time Rhaegar's bastard instead of Eddard's) therefore not really a legitimate heir. And I was told he's still a legitimate heir (or at least has better claim than Daenerys) because Rhaegar is Targaryen and for them polygamy was OK. So I thought the whole thing was resolved (among the fans, anyway, since this is just a theory). Guess it wasn't.

This is what I think of the Rhaegar thing:

Rhaegar was a mysterious person, nobody really knew him.

Initially though, he hasn't done anything bad.

And he was kind of a genius or something like that.

So he was generally thought of in high regard.

Then he crowned Lyanna instead of his wife.

And disappeared with her.

Based on that, people may have thought ill of him.

Especially Brandon Stark (Lyanna's brother), Rickard Stark (Lyanna's father), and Robert Baratheon (Lyanna's bethrothed).

Remember this was in a Medieval-ish setting, where women were generally thought of as weaker than men, in terms of power, rank, or what have you.

So it was easier to conclude that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna rather than Lyanna eloping with Rhaegar, as she was already bethrothed.

Prior to that, Rhaegar DID give her the tourney crown thingy, that makes him kind of an instigator.

Lyanna (who was bethrothed) had nothing to do with Rhaegar (who was married) before that, as far as we know.

Brandon and Rickard did go ask for Lyanna back.

But we all know how King Aerys responded to that.

So as a result, we got a dead Brandon, a dead Rickard, and no Lyanna.

That did it; Robert got mad and rebelled.

He's gotta get his Lyanna back.

Now, Rhaegar had to go to war with him.

And died.

As for my thoughts on Elia:

She was the wife - in Medieval times, the wife must obey the husband.

Daenerys' vision may imply that regardless of what Elia thinks is right or good for her or what, she knew or can assume that her beloved husband needed another offspring as he believed in some prophecy.

The dragon has three heads, there must be one more.

Who knows, this might have been their conversation:

Rhaeger: "I need another baby."

Elia: "Hey don't look at me - I'm done, dude. Go find another baby mama! Take Cersei."

Rhaegar: "Pass."

Elia: "Take the Stark girl then."

Rhaegar: "Fine."

Hehe :P

I'm sorry, but I think I couldn't really follow your new point. What's the exact problem for you now? Just so we can really discuss this. :)

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As far as the love part he waited almost a year, I think he could wait a little longer. As far as the prophecy no suggestion is made that he needed the third head right now and then.

Except that he couldn't, really. If I'm not mistaken, he took Lyanna around the time they were preparing for Brandon's wedding with Catelyn. Lyanna was 15, 16 - chances are they would only wait a few months after that to wed her to Robert. So, if Rhaegar waited, he would either lose her or commit an ever graver offense by kidnapping the wife of a great Lord.

ETA: not to mention it's likely he only waited so long after Harrenhall because he was trying at the very least to prepare the ToJ for her arrival, or, most likely, trying to set things going for substituting Aerys and all that and then he realized if he didn't act now he would lose the opportunity.

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I don't think the point is whether it is legal or not. Obviously since it has happened in more than one occasion we can conclude that at least it's acceptable and most likely legal too.

Yes. I was responding to another poster who refuses to accept this and was bringing up the points I countered.

The thing though is that Lyanna was not a Targaryen and I find it hard to believe that the Starks would approve polygamy for one of them. But even if they did and it was all done legally why all the secrecy?

Who says they have to approve?

The secrecy is quite obviously (probably) to forestall anyone doing anything about it. Either or both Aerys and Rickard may have disapproved, but with everybody 'gone' there is nothing they can physically do about it. If Rhaegar and Lyanna emerge a year or so later with a child, everyone will have much less reason to object and much greater reason to simpy accept it even if they dislike it.

It also neatly forestalls any (or nearly any) 'crazy' response from Brandon, Robert or similar. With their whereabouts unknown Rhagear can;t be challenged to duel and Lyanna can;t be violently rescued against her will. Basically the only thing anyone can productively try to do is talk to each other. Of course, Brandon went and did something really, really, impossibly stupid and unproductive, but there is only so much one can take into account when planning...

grrr Now I'm confused AGAIN. I did ask if this whole R+L=J would still leave Jon Snow a bastard (this time Rhaegar's bastard instead of Eddard's) therefore not really a legitimate heir. And I was told he's still a legitimate heir (or at least has better claim than Daenerys) because Rhaegar is Targaryen and for them polygamy was OK. So I thought the whole thing was resolved (among the fans, anyway, since this is just a theory). Guess it wasn't.

Polygamy being ok for Targaryens is only the enabler that makes it possible. The evidence that they were married is the behavior of the 3 KG at the ToJ, who emphasis that they are KG and holding to their vows, yet make no move for any of them to go to the unprotected 'king' Viserys - thus showing that they do not consider Viserys to be their rightful king, which means either Rhaegar is alive (not), Aerys is alive (not), Aegon is alive (maybe, but not to their knowledge) or Jon is legitimate (and that whichever of those opytions is real, that person is at ToJ).

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Polygamy being ok for Targaryens is only the enabler that makes it possible. The evidence that they were married is the behavior of the 3 KG at the ToJ, who emphasis that they are KG and holding to their vows, yet make no move for any of them to go to the unprotected 'king' Viserys - thus showing that they do not consider Viserys to be their rightful king, which means either Rhaegar is alive (not), Aerys is alive (not), Aegon is alive (maybe, but not to their knowledge) or Jon is legitimate (and that whichever of those opytions is real, that person is at ToJ).

:agree:

Excellent point, well made and explained.

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........

Well, wouldn't it be easier to send Elia and the kids on a trip instead? To Dorne or, heck, even to the Dragonstone itself. It was certainly not impossible to leave the Red Keep before the war started.

Elia was sickly and had just given birth to Aegon. She was in no condition to travel. Perhaps by the time she and the baby could have traveled, the war had already started.

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Who says they have to approve?

The secrecy is quite obviously (probably) to forestall anyone doing anything about it. Either or both Aerys and Rickard may have disapproved, but with everybody 'gone' there is nothing they can physically do about it. If Rhaegar and Lyanna emerge a year or so later with a child, everyone will have much less reason to object and much greater reason to simpy accept it even if they dislike it.

It also neatly forestalls any (or nearly any) 'crazy' response from Brandon, Robert or similar. With their whereabouts unknown Rhagear can;t be challenged to duel and Lyanna can;t be violently rescued against her will. Basically the only thing anyone can productively try to do is talk to each other. Of course, Brandon went and did something really, really, impossibly stupid and unproductive, but there is only so much one can take into account when planning...

Polygamy being ok for Targaryens is only the enabler that makes it possible. The evidence that they were married is the behavior of the 3 KG at the ToJ, who emphasis that they are KG and holding to their vows, yet make no move for any of them to go to the unprotected 'king' Viserys - thus showing that they do not consider Viserys to be their rightful king, which means either Rhaegar is alive (not), Aerys is alive (not), Aegon is alive (maybe, but not to their knowledge) or Jon is legitimate (and that whichever of those opytions is real, that person is at ToJ).

I agree with everything you said.

Secrecy was essential. This wasn't about an unmarried common stable boy and a mere tavern girl running off together (although "in those times" that could have caused a bit of a problem too), this was about Rhaegar Targaryen, crown prince, a married man and Lyanna Stark, a young girl, daughter of the warden of the north and betrothed to Robert Baratheon, lord of Storm's End. What they did was unacceptable in the eyes of everyone. So... secrecy was everything. The less people knew, the less they could do about it, the more free were Rhaegar and Lyanna. Whatever plans they had, would work better if they were alone, without anyone trying to separate them. As for Brandon, both of them never thought he would have acted so impulsively and irresponsibly, I believe.

Poligamy, of course, was only an "excuse" Rhaegar tried to work out to marry Lyanna. It was something his ancestors did and, well, I don't think anyone had ever said anything about it being illegal. It was just something Targaryens didn't do anymore. As I have said many times, that dialogue at ToJ is quite clear. It explains everything. The KG were there to protect the king. Rhaegar had been slain at the Trident, Aegon and Rhaenys had been killed, so why would they have stayed at ToJ? Why not run away to Dragonstone with the "rightful king" Viserys? Some said it was because they had promised Rhaegar not to leave Lyanna and Jon. But this is not it. This isn't about a promise made to a friend. This is about a vow. "The king's guard does not flee..." "We swore a vow..." This says it all. They stayed there and died, protecting what they swore to defend with their deaths: the king.

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Another thought...did Eddard really lie?

There is a story that Lord Borrell of Sweetsister tells Davos concerning the birth of Jon Snow. According to Borrell's father, Eddard fathered Jon on the daughter of a fisherman who was helping to smuggle Stark from the Eyrie back north to raise his banners in the rebellion. Apparently the fisherman died in a storm at sea but his daughter got Ned safely ashore on the Three Sisters. As the tale has it the girl had a son that she named Jon in honor of Jon Arryn.

Why did Martin throw this into book five completely out of the blue? No one seems to believe that Jon Snow was fathered this way. Is it simply a bad attempt at misdirection? Is the companion pieces to Wylla and Ashara Dayne. Maybe it's something else. Maybe it plays to Ned's honor. If the story is factually correct then it takes place before Catelyn enters the picture. Catelyn, who was betrothed to Ned's dead brother, marries Ned after the rebellion begins as a way to bring the Riverlands and the Tully's into the rebellion. It also nicely covers Ned's lies about Jon Snow. Ned is always careful what he says about Jon. Things like ur my blood but not ur son. If he did have a bastard son named Jon Snow growing up on a fishing boat in the Fingers, it would be the perfect identity to give the baby he brought back from the war. Ned's lies now become one of ommision, leaving out the part that he had a bastard before he married Catelyn sacrifices his own honor to protect the baby. I fathered a bastard son named Jon Snow and that's all im saying on the subject.

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But Ned does actually say that he fathered Jon after he married Catelyn. I do think that Ned lies as little as he can, but in some situations he does lie (as when he refer to Robb and Jon as his sons), and this seems to be just such a situation.

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I think the story about the fisherman's daughter is not a cover-up or something, but just something that happened naturally. She probably really helped Ned get to the North safely and, as usually happens in such situations, they got close. Most likely a friendship, but of course it could have been a sexual relationship. Maybe he sent her money later as a thanks for her help and that made everyone around suspicious on what went between them?

I don't think there truly is another bastard, though, but you're right: it is weird that this story is only mentioned in ADWD, and by someone who seems so sure about what he's saying. Unless he's lying, of course, either because he knows the truth (unlikely) and is trying to keep Jon's identity a secret seeing as Stannis is now too close to him and the boy became LC, which draws too much attention - or something else.

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I like the R+L=J theory and it seems very plausible but one problem I thought of was the Stark children's ability to warg.

I don't think there is any doubt that Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon are all Ned and Catelyn's children. They, as well as Jon (who may or may not be Ned's son) all have (or had) the ability to warg with their direwolves whether they knew it or not. The 5 starks + Jon snow all supposedly have Ned as a father in common which gave them their Warg abilities.

You could say that the special ability ran in Ned's family, so Lyanna would possibly be able to pass it on to Jon, but it is something to think about.

There is the quote about Lyanna's "wolf's blood" but I don't think Ned meant it as a warg-type thing, but more of a "hot-headed-northener" thing.

- Lyanna was a hot-head like her brother Brandon, but Ned was always described as quiet and more reserved. Jon seems more like Ned in that way, but I still don't know if I lean one way or the other on R+L+=J...

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If he did have a bastard son named Jon Snow growing up on a fishing boat in the Fingers, it would be the perfect identity to give the baby he brought back from the war.

Wouldn't it be Jon Stone not Snow? I didn't think the fingers were part of the north...

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You could say that the special ability ran in Ned's family, so Lyanna would possibly be able to pass it on to Jon, but it is something to think about.

Well, I think you've basically answered the question in your first two clauses, so it doesn't really seem like something to think about to me.

Wouldn't it be Jon Stone not Snow? I didn't think the fingers were part of the north...

The rules for bastard names are a custom, not a rule. A bastard's parents may choose to give him practically any name they want, including one of their own devising, or none at all. And a bastard born to a Northern lord would presumably be entitled to receive the name "Snow", even if he wasn't born in the North.

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Well, I think you've basically answered the question in your first two clauses, so it doesn't really seem like something to think about to me.

The rules for bastard names are a custom, not a rule. A bastard's parents may choose to give him practically any name they want, including one of their own devising, or none at all. And a bastard born to a Northern lord would presumably be entitled to receive the name "Snow", even if he wasn't born in the North.

1. I wouldn't say that is an answer to the question, its just another thing to think about. We know (or at least we think) Ned passed the "Warg Gene" to his children, but how do we know Lyanna could also pass it on? She has no children (Not including the Jon possibility)

2. Myra Stone is supposedly Robert's bastard, but she took the name Stone even though Robert is not from the vale.

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2. Myra Stone is supposedly Robert's bastard, but she took the name Stone even though Robert is not from the vale.

Yes, her name is Stone because that was the name given to her. Bastard names are accorded by their parents, and they have some freedom in which name they choose. Note that Jon is named Snow despite the fact that he was born somewhere in the South. That is because he was named by his father, who chose the name Snow. The fisherman's daughter, if she indeed exists, and if she did have Ned's child, could have chosen the name Snow to honor the child's father.

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1. I wouldn't say that is an answer to the question, its just another thing to think about. We know (or at least we think) Ned passed the "Warg Gene" to his children, but how do we know Lyanna could also pass it on? She has no children (Not including the Jon possibility)

But why would it be exclusive to Ned's children? The warging abilities to me always seemed like a Stark ability - or, more precisely, a First Men ability they inherited through their Stark genes. For instance, Bloodraven is a warg, and he also has the blood of the First Men. Same thing about some of the wildlings we meet. Of course, not everyone descending from the First Men seems to have that ability - we don't know if it only manifests in those that remain true to that heritage and "uncontaminated" by southern ways, if it's random, if it's stronger in the Starks and very few individuals outside that family get it, or whatever. But I would dare say, from what we know of Bloodraven and from Melisandre's and that wildling's comments on Jon's potential, that, maybe, the strongest wargs are those who have both the blood of the First Men and of Old Valyria.

I've read speculations, I'm not sure if here or on another board, on the possibility that a stronger "wargness" in the Starks would be exactly the reason why they've ruled the North for so long, why the other families allowed the Starks to lead them in the first place, a notion that would have been lost through the centuries, but would still be at their origins.

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There is the quote about Lyanna's "wolf's blood" but I don't think Ned meant it as a warg-type thing, but more of a "hot-headed-northener" thing.

- Lyanna was a hot-head like her brother Brandon, but Ned was always described as quiet and more reserved. Jon seems more like Ned in that way, but I still don't know if I lean one way or the other on R+L+=J...

Nature vs Nurture. Personality is not passed on by DNA.

Jon was raised by Ned, was passed on Ned's values, views, etc.

Add to that the sulkiness of a fourteen year old boy angsting because 'ohmyoldgods forever a bastard' and all that, and suddenly Jon being quiet like Ned makes sense.

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I like the R+L=J theory and it seems very plausible but one problem I thought of was the Stark children's ability to warg.

I don't think there is any doubt that Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon are all Ned and Catelyn's children. They, as well as Jon (who may or may not be Ned's son) all have (or had) the ability to warg with their direwolves whether they knew it or not. The 5 starks + Jon snow all supposedly have Ned as a father in common which gave them their Warg abilities.

You could say that the special ability ran in Ned's family, so Lyanna would possibly be able to pass it on to Jon, but it is something to think about.

There is the quote about Lyanna's "wolf's blood" but I don't think Ned meant it as a warg-type thing, but more of a "hot-headed-northener" thing.

- Lyanna was a hot-head like her brother Brandon, but Ned was always described as quiet and more reserved. Jon seems more like Ned in that way, but I still don't know if I lean one way or the other on R+L+=J...

There is a mention of Brandon being an excellent rider, and if I'm not mistaken, Lyanna as well (would connect with her victory at the Harrenhall tourney, if she was truly KotLT, since we have a comment from Jaime that winning at jousting is mostly about being a good rider), which, IMHO, could be a hint at warging abilities - not so strong as in Ned's kids and with a wrong type of animal, so they probably didn't even know themselves, they simply had a knack with horses.

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Nature vs Nurture. Personality is not passed on by DNA.

Jon was raised by Ned, was passed on Ned's values, views, etc.

Add to that the sulkiness of a fourteen year old boy angsting because 'ohmyoldgods forever a bastard' and all that, and suddenly Jon being quiet like Ned makes sense.

I dont know about Westeros but there is a definite genetic component to personality in this universe.

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Mya Stone...was raised in the vale. If Jon had stayed with "Ashara" if that story was true he would probably be a Sand, but he was raised in the North which makes him a Snow.

As far as Jon's melancholic / introspective nature, Rhaegar is described that way....so if you want to make an "emo" connection I'd start there. Ned is not emo.

Edit:

I mean the only thing Jon is missing is no one showed him how to play harp because I'd expect to see him angstily playing/singing his woes away.

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