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R+L=J v.30


Xray the Enforcer

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Just a thought to lighten the mood.

GRRM is going to read this thread, he'll realize the jig is up everyone has figured out the whole twist if the series it's ruined. So he will change it so Robyn arryn or hodor or someone is the third head

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Just a thought to lighten the mood.

GRRM is going to read this thread, he'll realize the jig is up everyone has figured out the whole twist if the series it's ruined. So he will change it so Robyn arryn or hodor or someone is the third head

Not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic, but I'm going to go with serious considering how often this idea pops up. I don't see (good) authors having temper tantrums about the fandom figuring out certain mysteries in their books before they are ready to reveal them. A literary mystery is meant to be figured out. If no one figures it out, then the author didn't do a good job. And anyway, I'd think Martin would have some serious reservations about his fandom if they couldn't figure it out in the nearly two decades since the series inception, even without the assistance of online info-exchange forums.

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Just a thought to lighten the mood.

GRRM is going to read this thread, he'll realize the jig is up everyone has figured out the whole twist if the series it's ruined. So he will change it so Robyn arryn or hodor or someone is the third head

GRRM has stated he deliberately doesn't read these threads. The majority of readers never come here, so they stay in the dark. And it's to his benefit if some people find out; really, if he wanted for noone to find out, I would consider the ultimate reveal to be coming out left field, just as I'd consider a real Aegon coming out of left field (how great that he's probably fake, and with foreshadowing of a fake Targ...)

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The way you are raised (and the environment you grow in) forms your personality. That's what I meant.

I know that's what you meant. I was pointing out that studies have shown that "nature" is also a big component. It's not all "nurture"

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Wouldn't it be Jon Stone not Snow? I didn't think the fingers were part of the north...

Mya Stone...was raised in the vale. If Jon had stayed with "Ashara" if that story was true he would probably be a Sand, but he was raised in the North which makes him a Snow.

As far as Jon's melancholic / introspective nature, Rhaegar is described that way....so if you want to make an "emo" connection I'd start there. Ned is not emo.

Edit:

I mean the only thing Jon is missing is no one showed him how to play harp because I'd expect to see him angstily playing/singing his woes away.

Im doing ADWD re-read and when I saw the passage the first thing I tried to do was debunk Lord Borrell's version of the story. First I asked was Ned even there...well, he and Robert were in The Eyrie right before they returned home and called their banners. Then I thought maybe it was someone pretending to be Ned and thought of Little Finger as this was near his home but it was unlikely that Lord Borell's father didnt know who Ned was after the war if not before. Certainly he and Robert would have been know to other lords. The name thing also bothered me as I thought he would have been a Waters or a Stone but as Budj pointed out being born in Dorne hadnt made Jon a Sand. Also, the idea to name him after Jon Aryn is more likely to come from Ned who considered him a father figure.

When I read these historical references in the book I try to ask myself why did Martin feel telling this tale is important. There is very little reason for Davos to turn up in Sweetsister and have a conversation with this lord other than to hear this story. Almost all the other information he learns from Borrell is repeated to him in White Harbor. That tells me Martin was either throwing in another red herring for us to argue about or adding yet one more piece to complicated man who was Ned Stark.

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Just a thought to lighten the mood.

GRRM is going to read this thread, he'll realize the jig is up everyone has figured out the whole twist if the series it's ruined. So he will change it so Robyn arryn or hodor or someone is the third head

Lol, I disagree. George Martin doesn't read what his fans write on the internet, or so I've heard. Can anyone confirm this?

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That tells me Martin was either throwing in another red herring for us to argue about or adding yet one more piece to complicated man who was Ned Stark.

Red herring and/or an illusrtration of how the storie of Jon's real parentage was scrambled on purpose. That story had me going for a good while.

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this thread is still going havent been on the forum in months last time it was version 18 or something h aha ha ahaha ha ha ha

An overwhelming amount of traffic to this volumed thread is new people who join the forum wanting to know more about the theory. There are also readers who want to further discuss certain aspects in order to understand more about other character or plot motivations or some readers have difficultly understanding certain things that are somewhat related to the theory, such as the KG vows. These are all reasons that the thread is pinned and has so many volumes. It's a catch all thread.

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Just a random thought on a detail I've been wondering about... Ned says (or is it Bran talking to the Reeds? I really don't remember) that the fight against Ser Arthur was a close call and, if not for Howland Reed, he would have died. Or something like that. Crannogmen are not known for their fighting skills; we've only seen them fighting in two ways so far: Merra's frog spear and the poisoned arrows against the ironborn. This leads me to think that, since they don't seem to follow the knightly battle tradition (and values), the only way Reed could have defeated someone like Dayne is the poisoned projectile strategy. Unless, of course, Dayne was already injured from previous fights and Reed simply stabbed him from behind or something, right?

Anyway, I know it's irrelevant, but it's related to the thread and it doesn't seem worth opening another one to discuss it.

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Just a random thought on a detail I've been wondering about... Ned says (or is it Bran talking to the Reeds? I really don't remember) that the fight against Ser Arthur was a close call and, if not for Howland Reed, he would have died. Or something like that. Crannogmen are not known for their fighting skills; we've only seen them fighting in two ways so far: Merra's frog spear and the poisoned arrows against the ironborn. This leads me to think that, since they don't seem to follow the knightly battle tradition (and values), the only way Reed could have defeated someone like Dayne is the poisoned projectile strategy. Unless, of course, Dayne was already injured from previous fights and Reed simply stabbed him from behind or something, right?

Anyway, I know it's irrelevant, but it's related to the thread and it doesn't seem worth opening another one to discuss it.

I took the story to mean that crannogmen are good fighters. meera is a kid and a girl.

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I took the story to mean that crannogmen are good fighters. meera is a kid and a girl.

I don't know; only one or two years before the ToJ Reed had to be rescued by Lyanna against three squires. How could he survive against the greatest knight in the realm?

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I don't know; only one or two years before the ToJ Reed had to be rescued by Lyanna against three squires. How could he survive against the greatest knight in the realm?

Was that Reed? How do you know? You discount my assumptions with your own.

If it was Reed perhaps he was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Maybe he's a fast learner and got some lessons from Ned or whoever.

In any case, I think his skillz at T o J are why I think there is a case to be made that he is a good fighter.

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Sorry if this has come up before, but in AGOT Ned says:

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.

Which doesn't seem likely if Rhaegar is really Jon's father. Except Ned has thought about Rhaegar multiple times during the book. In the chapter right before that quote he thinks:

Always? Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen.

Is the first quote a mistake?

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Just a random thought on a detail I've been wondering about... Ned says (or is it Bran talking to the Reeds? I really don't remember) that the fight against Ser Arthur was a close call and, if not for Howland Reed, he would have died. Or something like that. Crannogmen are not known for their fighting skills; we've only seen them fighting in two ways so far: Merra's frog spear and the poisoned arrows against the ironborn. This leads me to think that, since they don't seem to follow the knightly battle tradition (and values), the only way Reed could have defeated someone like Dayne is the poisoned projectile strategy. Unless, of course, Dayne was already injured from previous fights and Reed simply stabbed him from behind or something, right?

Anyway, I know it's irrelevant, but it's related to the thread and it doesn't seem worth opening another one to discuss it.

Lady O, I'm thinking maybe something more magical happened. In the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Meera tells Bran that Howland was skilled in all the magic of their people. She says he could turned earth to water and water to earth, and he could move castles. I think he liquified the ground under Arthur's feet, giving Ned his "margin of Selmy" so Ned could prevail in the fight. Howland's magical ground-changing powers could also explain how two guys managed to pull down a tower.

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the only way Reed could have defeated someone like Dayne is the poisoned projectile strategy. Unless, of course, Dayne was already injured from previous fights and Reed simply stabbed him from behind or something, right?

Ned doesn't say Reed defeated Dayne, just that without Reed's help Ned would have lost.

There are innumerable ways that could have happened, and only some of them have Reed utilising any combat skills at all.

There is no issue to question here.

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From what I understand, Elia of Dorne cannot have another child, which essentially means that Rhaegar's a dude in his 20s in the freezer for the rest of his life. I think its pretty clear from the story about the knight of the laughing tree that he fell in love with Lyanna because she was so strong, while his wife was so weak. I have no doubt that they eloped as well.

As far as the whole debate about whether or not she would accept being the second wife, remember that it was Aegon's younger sister, his second wife who the line of Kings came from. Rhaenyra, not Visenya. In that kind of society, it would be easy for Aegon to end up dead early from any number of reasons, war, adventure, etc, and if not, she at least has a much happier life than she could ever have had with Robert. Its not like Rhaegar would have paid Elia any attention considering her condition and his wife of his own choosing being around.

If you don't accept the love story, the you have this. "The dragon has three heads". Rhaegar wanted another child, and he forced Lyanna to be its mother. Thats the other option on the table and I'm fairly sure that between the two of them, one of them is correct.

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