R+L=J v.30

[ArabellaVidal]

Also, Jon does have possibly prophetic dreams - among others, he dreams of carrying a burning sword while wearing an ice armor. Really, it's debatable if Dany's dreams are really more prophetic than Jon's.

Sorry for going off-topic here, but I don't remember Jon having this dream. If you remember the particulars, please do tell. I don't know how I missed this.

As for why he doesn't have dragon dreams, I agree that if he is Rhaegar's son it would spoil the ongoing mystery in the novel. Also it could be for a far more practical reason. He has no connection or overt fascination for them. From the beginning it has been his birth and his lack of position in life that are major concerns and now all things concerning ice and cold and wildlings and white walkers.

[The guy from the Vale]

It's Jon XII in ADwD - that's the second to last Jon chapter in ADwD. Basically, the chapter begins with Jon's dream of the wildlings which includes Jon carrying said sword and armor.

[valyrian_steel]

I really like the Elia/Dayne theory for a few reasons. First, it quite possible that Rhaegar knew that Elia loved Dayne and approved of them having a chance to be together. Secondly, this works as well for Dayne as it does for Elia. Elia gets to remain as Queen while Dayne gets to keep (sort of) his oaths as KG. As a KG member Dayne could neither marry nor father children. Since Elia would want to remain married to Rhaegar at least for appearances and was unable to have more children, she was the perfect lover. Also, I recall Barriston Selmy broaching the subject of KG and their oaths in ADWD. He mentioned that he had known of KG members who had lovers on the side despite their oaths. Generally, when Martin has characters remember things, there is important information subtly divulged.

Now if u wanted to take this to the next level, I guess this might throw suspicion on whether Rhaenys and Aegon were Rhaegar's or Dayne's. The fact that some of the Daynes had a similar look as the Targaryans there would have been no easy way to tell the difference. If that was true and R + L were married, Jon would have been his only real heir.

[Arkash]

I guess this might throw suspicion on whether Rhaenys and Aegon were Rhaegar's or Dayne's.

And therefore... the mummer's dragon...

I like this theory too.

[Kanon]

Daeron the Drunken had prophetic dragon dreams; Daemon II Blackfyre had prophetic dreams too, but no dragon dreams. No reason to dismiss Jon because his dreams are prophetic.

There's still a difference between overwhelming indications (so anyone who actually pieces the entire thing together sees it) and an actual revelation. There's work involved in figuring out who Jon's parents are as long as the revelation isn't amde, and anyone who doesn't question Ned from the get-go or rereads stuff will miss That Jon is most likely not Ned's son, and actually the Targaryen heir to the throne ahead of Dany.

From what I read on this site, the Targ line lost its power to rule and only the Baratheons have the real "line of sucession" now. The only means for Jon/Dany/YG to rule is through conquest. Is that correct?

[Lady Octarina]

And therefore... the mummer's dragon...

I like this theory too.

That would be a great twist! The only problem would be proving he isn't Rhaegar's son, but Dayne's, for the only person still alive who would know the truth about it, Ashara (and probably Varys), would have no reason to make it public.

[Sapphire]

Targaryens have a history of prophetic dreams and dragons feature in them because that's what they identify with. Is it a hard and fast rule that dragon dreams are a must for Targs? Idk.

As for Jon having no dragon dreams - I guess having wolf dreams supplants and/or is enhanced by the dragon dreams. Also, Jon does have possibly prophetic dreams - among others, he dreams of carrying a burning sword while wearing an ice armor. Really, it's debatable if Dany's dreams are really more prophetic than Jon's.

Also, the first time Jon wargs Ghost is preceded by a dream of Bran as a weirwood tree. Bran mentions that he reached out to Jon, but did he chose to manifest himself as a tree or was that Jon's prophetic ability kicking in? At the time they were in the crypts and hadn't yet decided to travel north in search of the Three Eyed Crow.

[Alia of the knife]

Im not sure if his was answered before, but if Jon is half Targ shouldnt he have many Dragon themed dreams during his life? People who want to prove that Tyrion s a Targ use his dreams as an argument. Why Jon never has these dreams?

Martin is very good at double entendres and ironies.

While Jon may not have "dragon dreams," but dreams primarily of wolves, (and people have tried to use this as a reason he's not a Targaryen), his dreams are prophetic, a trait of Targaryens.

[Alia of the knife]

I agree that having dragon dreams isnt proof f being Targ, but imo the fact that Jon dosent have them could be evidence that he dosent have Targ ancestry. Im just not 100% sure that R+L= J and this isnt a big red herring that GRRM made.

When I first got into the series, I didn't even think about it-

I figured it was just another Medieval bar fight, and Rhaegar took a Stark girl for vendetta.

Then I came to this board, because I always want to know cause and effect, and then a the lightbulb went off, so really, it's not that obvious, especially to the casual fan.

In that sense, it is like Tolkein with the backstory being very signifigant to current events.

Martin said in a recent interview that he plants the clues, and it's the readers job to figure them out, and too many red herrings, (and at this point, Jon not being Rhaegars son wouldn't make sense), not only makes the "clue-finding" process frustrating, which I don't think is his point, but it can also become more Jerry Springer than Tolkein- definitely not something a writer concerned for his legacy wants to do.

If you go back and read some of the other threads, you'll see the that the GOT cast members have apparently had the "gag order" lifted on the topic, openly discussing it, with Sansa herself kicking things off, stating that "R+L=J is her favorite."

Then comes Alfie Allen, (to some peoples rage, lol, because his was a bit of a spoiler).

As far as the television series goes, the audience knows that Jon is Neds bastard son, so why have the cast members start throwing out these nuggets unless the Authors intent is to convey something- like Jon is NOT Neds son?

Also, the release of the graphic novel, (and you can assume with Martins blessing- where is Frozenfire when we need him)?, it is pretty obvious that the Artists rendition of Jon looks like a cross between Lyanna and Viserys rather than rugged Ned.

But, clues strewn between five books and hundreds of pages is not that obvious, so for many it will still be a big reveal

[Dragonfish]

Aemon said that he and his brothers had many dragon dreams, he implied that it was because of the Targ's blood.

Could you post a quote of this? I don't recall what book it's in.

[SFDanny]

Aemon said that he and his brothers had many dragon dreams, he implied that it was because of the Targ's blood. Maybe Jon dosent have them because he is half Stark? Perhaps only pure/inbred Targs have them...

Could you post a quote of this? I don't recall what book it's in.

From a Samwell chapter in A Feast for Crows:

"Dragons," Aemon whispered. "The grief and glory of my House, they were."

"The last dragon died before you were born," said Sam. "How could you remember them?"

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember the red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. (AFfC 382)

It is obvious then that dreaming of dragons runs strongly in Aemon's family, but that doesn't translate to an ability that all Targaryens share. There is a quote from Warriors that points to that not being the case:

“I dreamed it. This pale white castle, you, a dragon bursting from an egg, I dreamed it all, just as I once dreamed of my brothers lying dead. They were twelve and I was only seven, so they laughed at me, and died. I am two-and-twenty now, and I trust my dreams.” (Warriors 683)

The fact the Fiddler's brothers laugh at his dreams strongly implies they don't have them themselves.

[Dr. Pepper]

But those are prophetic dreams, not random dragon dreams like Dany and Aemon had.

Its not just that its obvious, its the fact that he is holding a secret like that after so many books and "clues", but keeps saying that the revelation will only come in aDoS, and all we need to justify R+L is the first book...

There is another mystery that comes out in latter books that we had all the clues to solve in the first book. One I can think of off the top of my head is Lysa poisoning Jon Arryn. We're given numerous clues that Lysa had something to do with it, from her fleeing to the mixed up stories about where Sweetrobin was allegedly supposed to be fostered, etc. To many, this revelation was absolutely shocking because they missed the clues. For some, it wasn't so shocking, only confirmation of what they already pieced together. There are many other clues for mysteries in the first book that are revealed in later books.

The vast majority of people who read the books will probably not go online to look up theories and such. GRRM isn't going to cater to a small minority of his readership by revealing what we already know. If ten thousand out of millions already know without a doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, great, we figured out the mystery. But there is still that other rather large portion of the fandom who haven't figured it out and wouldn't be thankful to be spoilered. Martin doesn't confirm or deny things that haven't been explicitly revealed in the books and for that I'm thankful. He'd be a shitty asshole if he went around verifying things and preventing the fandom from spending hours deliberating over details.

The point is, people on this forum know who Jon's parents are but those active on this forum are a tiny tiny minority of the readership of ASOIAF.

[rmholt]

Targaryens have a history of prophetic dreams and dragons feature in them because that's what they identify with. Is it a hard and fast rule that dragon dreams are a must for Targs? Idk.

Also, the first time Jon wargs Ghost is preceded by a dream of Bran as a weirwood tree. Bran mentions that he reached out to Jon, but did he chose to manifest himself as a tree or was that Jon's prophetic ability kicking in? At the time they were in the crypts and hadn't yet decided to travel north in search of the Three Eyed Crow.

This is mentioned in Brans POV as talking to Jon - but perhaps only a dream. Bran got to Ghost somehow - either via Summer, on his own directly, or via the trees - before BRs appearance. This is the onlly time I recall that Ghost makes a sound. Since Jon was sleeping all he saw was through Ghost or in his dreaming mind so it is hard for me to tell if Ghost was visiting a weirwood.

[rmholt]

There is another mystery that comes out in latter books that we had all the clues to solve in the first book. One I can think of off the top of my head is Lysa poisoning Jon Arryn. We're given numerous clues that Lysa had something to do with it, from her fleeing to the mixed up stories about where Sweetrobin was allegedly supposed to be fostered, etc. To many, this revelation was absolutely shocking because they missed the clues. For some, it wasn't so shocking, only confirmation of what they already pieced together. There are many other clues for mysteries in the first book that are revealed in later books.

The vast majority of people who read the books will probably not go online to look up theories and such. GRRM isn't going to cater to a small minority of his readership by revealing what we already know. If ten thousand out of millions already know without a doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, great, we figured out the mystery. But there is still that other rather large portion of the fandom who haven't figured it out and wouldn't be thankful to be spoilered. Martin doesn't confirm or deny things that haven't been explicitly revealed in the books and for that I'm thankful. He'd be a shitty asshole if he went around verifying things and preventing the fandom from spending hours deliberating over details.

The point is, people on this forum know who Jon's parents are but those active on this forum are a tiny tiny minority of the readership of ASOIAF.

I missed ANY clues that Lysa killed Robert before the reveal, even in retrospect and also that the killing wasnt to hide the Lannister incest. That was a huge misdirect for me. If you can point out the clues, I'd appreciate it. I see the R + L clues and that hasnt even been revealed. I remember Tyrion in his little trust test told LF he would offer Arryn's killer's identity to Lysa and LF suddenly sat straight up. That must have hit LF like a foul ball in the stands. He probably figured Tyrion was bluffing after the first startle. Thats the only clue I can dig up.

Robert was going to send Sweetrobin to Tywin but Jon Arryn wanted him at Dragonstone, probably because he was discovering the incest issues, but this is more of the misdirect.

As to giving out events prematurely, the journey is what's important and if he changes his mind, then what?

[valyrian_steel]

It helps that Martin originally set out to write a trilogy so Im sure he had a long range plan worked out. Then as he expanded to five and now seven books, he still has his original framework to fall back on. Many of these book series start out as a stand alone. Then when the book becomes popular the story is expanded but most of the original foundation is resolved in the first book. It's plain from the get go the a lot of thing set up in G of T were meant to be resolved in later books.

[FrozenFire3]

Also, the release of the graphic novel, (and you can assume with Martins blessing- where is Frozenfire when we need him)?, it is pretty obvious that the Artists rendition of Jon looks like a cross between Lyanna and Viserys rather than rugged Ned.

Here I am :cool4:

With 'juicy' evidence :leer: of your statement about GRRM's blessing (source: The Graphic Novel - The Making of Game of Thrones - The Characters)

http://www.imagebam.com/image/3fc206204694693

All The Making of Game of Thrones section is about the artists' struggle to get the concepts right, to match George's vision and eventually - sic - get into his head and see what he's seeing.

Btw, I'm a She-wolf LOL :lol:

Now if u wanted to take this to the next level, I guess this might throw suspicion on whether Rhaenys and Aegon were Rhaegar's or Dayne's. The fact that some of the Daynes had a similar look as the Targaryans there would have been no easy way to tell the difference. If that was true and R + L were married, Jon would have been his only real heir.

Oh! That. Is. So. Intriguing. A very original contribution to the whole Mummer's/cloth dragon debate...

[sunflower87]

One thing is for sure- Rhaegar wanted to fulfill the prophecy but he fell in love with Lyanna...I don't think that they were about to get married which explains why they've eloped to Dorne. From the books we can conclude that Dornishmen don't have such strict rules about marriage and multiple partners. The Red Viper and Arianne are examples of that. So the theory that Lyanna was raped falls off....only Robert speaks of that with hatred while Ned and many others give a bit different storyline...and Lyanna's last words in her bed of blood " Promise me Ned..."? Why would she beg him to hide a secret if she were raped? The Northerners are honorable and they would for sure acted if one of their family member has been disshonoured. Ned went to avenge his father and brother but I'm not so sure that this vendeta involved Lyanna also...I might be wrong, but Jon is for sure Lyanna's and Rhaegars son...why would Martin made Jon one of the most important characters in the books if he is not some kind of a messiah? Ned had five children and they are all followed through the series but the emphasis is on Jon. The dragon has three heads and we have seen that the two are Daenerys and Egon...and after all this is a Song of ICE( Jon being the son of the North) and FIRE( the dragon blood of Egon and Daenerys). :)

[Sapphire]

Now if u wanted to take this to the next level, I guess this might throw suspicion on whether Rhaenys and Aegon were Rhaegar's or Dayne's. The fact that some of the Daynes had a similar look as the Targaryans there would have been no easy way to tell the difference. If that was true and R + L were married, Jon would have been his only real heir.

I wouldn't go that far. As sympathetic and accommodating as Rhaegar might have been to Elia and his bff Arthur seeing each other on the sly, ensuring the continuation of the Targaryen dynasty comes first.

[Buried Treasure]

Like some others here, I don't think it is established that Targaryens have magical dreams of dragons. I think it's indicated that some Targaryen inherit a prophetic dreaming ability. A lot of prophecy seems to show events that have some importantance to the prophet (Bran's prophetic dreams are mostly of his family, Mel pretty much says as much) and it would therefore follow that a Targaryen prophet would often have dragons feature as part of the prophecy; some Targaryens have owned literal dragons that have life-altering effects, all Targaryens use the dragon as their sigil and are symbolically represented by it.

"The last dragon died before you were born," said Sam. "How could you remember them?"

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember the red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. (AFfC 382)

Aemon's brothers:

-Daeron has already been discussed here. His 'dragon dreams' are definately of the magical prophecy variety. Mostly the solution to the prophecy is that the dragon in the dream is a family member (usually Egg) who is symbolically a dragon. Daeron died of pox caught from a whore but I think the implication is that his prophetic ability drove him to drink and ruin his life, resulting in his early death.

- Maekar after drinking wildfire in an attempt to turn himself into a dragon. That is consistent with 'dreaming of dragons' in a non-magical way - he had a desire ('dream') of becoming a dragon.

- Aegon died in an attempt to hatch dragons. Again consistent with a non-magical explanation; his goal ('dream') was to bring dragons back to life. It's ages since I read Dunk & Egg but I don't recall Aegon having any kind of magical dreams.

I don't think Aemon himself had any kind of magical dream prior to this episode, but he is fevered at this time so perhaps that led to an onset of latent ability? It seems like an actual prophetic dream, of Dany's literal dragons somewhere snowy (at the Wall?)

Offhand I can only recall one dream by Dany, when she has a nightmare of a black dragon the night before she first feels warmth in the dragon eggs (and around the time she conceived, which IMO is linked to her ability to feel warmth in the eggs). That seems to me to like it could be a magical prophetic dream, but if so then it would be a prophecy of Drogon rather than a generic 'Targaryen dragon dream'.

Jon has prophetic dreams. I'm not totally sure if skinchangers like Jon get prophetic dreams - is it the preserve of greenseers? If we rule out his Stark blood as the cause of his prophetic dreams they could be caused by a prophetic ability inherited from his Targaryen side. That his dreams don't have dragons makes sense as he is not prophesising about anybody symbolically represented by dragons or about the actual literal dragons - which are not important to him.

[Budj]

Aemon could also be dreaming about a dragon (Targ) already at the wall - Jon - as well and is mistaking it for literal dragons.

To agree with Buried Treasure's last paragraph I would say there should be a distinction between dragon and wolf dreams.

"dragon dreams" - prophetic in nature - Targ trait - prophetic dreams usually are to do with those closest to the dreamer and therefore would consistently be of metaphorical dragons, but not limited to this...

"wolf dreams" - real-time mind melding when the warg is dreaming...

Jon's potential prophetic dreams are separate from his wolf-dreams.