R+L=J v.30

[rmholt]

its a joke really how much this is discussed, how many times are people going to keep saying the same things

I am not only uncomfortable with all the assumptions - not that people are making them to make things make sense to THEM but the insistence that these assumptions must be true.

We are forgetting some things: We dont know what we dont know. All these assumptions are possible, even if some conflict with your assumptions. Finally, it was a DREAM from which we are getting a lot of information. Doesnt mean it is all literally true. We have come down to a place where no new information or insights are happening. So I mainly get from this thread some pretty good tangents. The rest is a "keep reading" or "dont worry about it" at this point.

YMMV :)

[King Doug]

The vows of the KG mean nothing same as the vows of the NW. People who say those vows matter and people differ. One man is very different from another, even the same person can act differently under different conditions. There are noumerous occasions in the books where members of the KG and NW break/broke their vows repetedly. For example a knight's vows can conflict with a KG vow, so whose to say which one any particular individual will follow? It's only up to him. I don't understand why people are so inflexible when comes to the KG priority issue when there are many examples of the KG history pointing to the other direction.

And people saying that Ser Gerold's response is a reference to the KG vow is open to interpetation.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold."

I believe he speaks of a different vow and there is no way to know for sure. I don't belive it's a coincidence that these 3 KG were there. Why isn't Selmy or Jaime? They were the 3 Rhaegar knew he could trust. It wasn't for their fighting abilities, for 3 no matter how gifted are not an army. If Rhaegar wanted to guard his son and wife he would have left at least a small garrison but he only left 3 men, the ones he could trust to follow his orders regardless of their vows. Keep in mind that Rhaegar meant to overthrow Aerys. When he planned this he must have had some of the KG support.

A couple others have discussed that the KG was not ignoring their vow by staying at the ToJ, and kudos to them. They did a great job and I agree with everything the say.

The only thing else I will bring up is you mention that those were the 3 KG members that Rhaegar trusted and they were willing to forsake their KG vows to listen to Rhaegar's orders. I MIGHT be able to believe this about Dayne, and MAYBE Whent. Because we do have plenty of evidence to show Dayne and Rhaegar were close. And there is enough speculative evidence that Whent was pro-Rhaegar as well. But we don't have the same for Hightower.

We have the opposite for Hightower. By all indications he was very honorable and very loyal Aerys because of his vows. When Aerys was roasting Lord Rickard Stark and having Brandon Stark strangle himself, Jaime Lannister was disgusted, obviously visibly disgusted by this. Let's face it, who wouldn't be disgusted by this unless you are mad? It was Hightower who pulled him aside and told him that they took vows to protect the king, not to judge him (something along those lines).

Hightower's presence and conviction at the ToJ was always the deciding factor for me in the discussion about Jon's heritage and legitimacy.

[dragontamer]

A couple others have discussed that the KG was not ignoring their vow by staying at the ToJ, and kudos to them. They did a great job and I agree with everything the say.

The only thing else I will bring up is you mention that those were the 3 KG members that Rhaegar trusted and they were willing to forsake their KG vows to listen to Rhaegar's orders. I MIGHT be able to believe this about Dayne, and MAYBE Whent. Because we do have plenty of evidence to show Dayne and Rhaegar were close. And there is enough speculative evidence that Whent was pro-Rhaegar as well. But we don't have the same for Hightower.

We have the opposite for Hightower. By all indications he was very honorable and very loyal Aerys because of his vows. When Aerys was roasting Lord Rickard Stark and having Brandon Stark strangle himself, Jaime Lannister was disgusted, obviously visibly disgusted by this. Let's face it, who wouldn't be disgusted by this unless you are mad? It was Hightower who pulled him aside and told him that they took vows to protect the king, not to judge him (something along those lines).

Hightower's presence and conviction at the ToJ was always the deciding factor for me in the discussion about Jon's heritage and legitimacy.

The truth is that the presence of the KG at the ToJ is the strongest argument of Jon's legitimacy. I can't deny this. But there are other issues that I personally find interesting and odd about the whole ToJ situation as I have said before that makes me question this theory.

The actual facts from the books as I see it are : 281 Harrenhal tourney where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna.

282 Aegon is born and is believed to be TPWWP by Rhaegar, 282 Rhaegar disappears with Lyanna, we know that at some point they went to the ToJ but we know nothing of their whereabouts prior to this, 282 Robert's rebellion, several battles and Rhaegar is vanished, 283 end of the war, Eddard finds Lyanna at ToJ in a bed of blood (there is nowhere in the books that she gave birth but I think that we can safely assume this), 3KG are with her.

The rest is an effort to put things together, speculations and assumptions on personal beliefs. All that is needed is one important clue that might be missing and the whole story could change completely so until we have all the clues we can't reach safe conclusions.

[dragontamer]

Fail. The one does not require the other. All he needs to know is that this is where she was to be found.

This is true. The only thing is that the location was a secret. I believe only few people knew this other than the ones constantly present at the ToJ. So I think those few confidants were probably the means to get news from and to ToJ and knew exactly what was going on there. But of course can't be 100% sure.

Not necessarily - as noted by others, he's giving the KG an apparently honourable way out.

But yes, I don't think he suspects. I think he never suspected Jon is legit, because he's never thought about the events, that conversation, and what it meant beyond the pain of losing his friends and then his sister. Very Ned - he's not unintelligent at all, just wilfully blind in some areas.

But I don't think we'll actually get confirmation of that sort of detail around ToJ myself.

I can't believe that he would just let them go or that he believed that they would accept it anyway so if a suggestion it was useless and he knew it imo. And even if he wanted to do this I don't think that the rest of his party would allow it.

Probably, yes. He has no personal beef with them, is at odds with Robert already (and is doing something he will never tell Robert of anyway) and simply doesn't care about the final fate of these KG, or even Viserys, any more. THe rebellion has succeeded, the mad king is dead, he's just here to get back his beloved baby sister and then go home.

Ned cares enough to warn even Cersei. Also the KG were the enemy and he didn't have the power to pardon them, the honorable thing would be to deliver them to Robert where they would be pardoned as Selmy was if bent the knee.

Finally I strongly believe Ned was a stupid man. He was honorable and loyal but stupid. His honor and duty blinded him to the most obvious facts and incapacitated him from foreseeing even the most eminent danger.

[Alia of the knife]

This post is perfection :bowdown:

LOL no problem. I didn't specify the gender in my profile ;)

Here are the links to the Graphic Novel's scans:

Lyanna:

http://www.imagebam....821034200156931

http://www.imagebam....f23b2f200280912

Jon:

http://www.imagebam....20add6200156914

Viserys:

http://www.imagebam....f6bd56200190840

Btw, The Graphic Novel: Volume Two will be released on November 27. Just saying :leer:

Thank you for going back and finding these. :bowdown:

(Maybe we can make them an automatic response when someone doubts Jons parentage).

And thanks for the update! :D

[Sasha Steelsong]

Not at all. As I said in the previous post, Ned is checking if the KG are in touch with the events - if they didn't know that Aerys and Aegon were dead, there was no reason to expect them to go to Dragonstone. But when he heard that they did know, then he inevitably had to start suspecting (or confirming whatever he suspected previously) that there must be another Targ in the ToJ, who, given the circumstances, could only be a child by Lyanna.

It is also possible that the person who tipped Ned off about Lyanna's location didn't know, or didn't inform him, about her pregnancy.

They could simply be prevented by circumstances - to travel with a newborn, you have to arrange a wetnurse, which may take some time. Besides, they most probably didn't intend to stay over there forever, they were only waiting for Lyanna to recover or pass away, and then they would move one. And, up till Ned turned up, the secrecy and remoteness of the location protected them well enough.

Good summary but I'd like to add one thing...I think Ned thought there was a good chance at there being a child before every getting to the TOJ..afterall Lyanna was a woman flowered and alone for the better part of a year with a man so the chances of their being a child are pretty good. I think the whole discussion with KG outside the TOJ had more to do with parcing out whether there was a recognized marriage not whether there was a child at all. Basically the evidence that Ned thought of the possibility of a child before ever getting to the TOJ is the fact that he took so few people. Yes he likely knew that the tower was lightly held but that is still no reason not to take a token force of 20..unless you want to limit who sees whatever is there. Before he set out for the TOJ I think he was already worrying about protecting Lyanna's honor from the potential damage to her reputation as a result of birthing a Targ bastard (which was a strongly possible outcome even if Lyanna was taken by force and repeatedly raped - sadly love/consent is not necessary for conception), with a legit child also being a more complicated possibility.

[valyrian_steel]

Why do 8 men die at Tof? Because of what they dont know not what they know. The KG doesnt know that Ned will take the baby, raise it as his own and teach it to be a Stark. Ned doesnt know that the KG r protecting the baby. That's the rub. If Ser Gerold had said they were protecting the King instead of it appearing they were holding Lyanna captive, there never would have been a fight. It's Romeo and Juliet. No one was supposed to die but two did due to a lack of communication.

An equally interesting debate is what happens to Jon if the KG and Ned dont fight? Ned goes inside with Ser Arthur. Lyanna makes him promise something. She dies and the boys go back outside. Do the KG take the baby to Dragonstone? Does Ned allow it? Did Ned promise to raise the child or simply to see that it is kept safe? If Ned wants to take the baby to Winterfell do we get the fight anyway?

[Im no Ser]

Why do 8 men die at Tof? Because of what they dont know not what they know. The KG doesnt know that Ned will take the baby, raise it as his own and teach it to be a Stark. Ned doesnt know that the KG r protecting the baby. That's the rub. If Ser Gerold had said they were protecting the King instead of it appearing they were holding Lyanna captive, there never would have been a fight. It's Romeo and Juliet. No one was supposed to die but two did due to a lack of communication.

The KG can't let Ned take the heir. If Jon is raised as a bastard Stark they lose - it forever cuts Jon off from his rights as the heir to the Iron Throne, the rights they are sworn to defend.

And Ned can't let the KG and the remaining Targ loyalists use Jon as a political pawn, a course that will most likely get Jon killed, and if it doesn't will get Ned's family and friends killed.

They all know the stakes here.

[sagaz]

I don't think Ned knows nothing of the baby. He explicitly takes only six companions with him, and at least one of them (Howland Reed) was indebted to Lyanna. Clearly, if he wanted to assure victory at any cost, he would have brought an army (he was a general, after all). Instead, he chooses to only take his closest confidants to the Tower. The implication being that Ned already suspects what he might find at the Tower of Joy - not very surprising, considering that he might know Lyanna ran away willingly, and that there's simply no reliable birth control in this setting.

However, Ned doesn't want to fight the KG if possible. The dialogue at the Tower of Joy is Ned's way of confirming his suspicions, as well as giving the three King's Guard an out - he basically offers them free conduct if they go to Viserys instead of staying at the ToJ; they refuse, and the two parties begin to fight.

Referring to a vow after they repeatedly point out that they are KG and do things the way the KG are supposed to do leaves little space for another vow, IMHO, especially if the said vow was somehow in contradiction with the KG vow. The KG vow is supposed to be an ultimate one, superseding any other. They might choose to follow another vow, or their conscience, but if they do so, they become oathbreakers, as a couple of KG have before them - only the ToJ trio explicitely state they are keeping their vow.

And, Ser Gerold does offer sufficient explanation. Basically, Ned comes to ToJ with his most faithful friends and vassals, which is already pretty telling - he knows he might find something that had better not become publically known. Then, he encounters there the KG, whose location was previously unknown, guarding his sister, who, whether kidnapped or eloped, spent quite some time in the company of a fertile young man. He questions the KG to find out if they are aware of what transpired at KL and why they were not at the places where their oath would be binding them to be, and receives an answer that they are at ToJ doing KG business. If he didn't figure it out the very moment he saw them there, now he definitely does: he needn't know exactly all the whats and hows but he knows that there is an heir of Rhaegar's at the tower.

And, just BTW, if the Starks did know all along that Lyanna went willingly, because she did leave a message saying "I'm leaving with the man I love and we're going to say the words before the hearttree", the figuring out part would be a matter of seconds.

ETA: dammit, theguyfromtheVale was faster :-)

you guys are golden!

[King Doug]

The truth is that the presence of the KG at the ToJ is the strongest argument of Jon's legitimacy. I can't deny this. But there are other issues that I personally find interesting and odd about the whole ToJ situation as I have said before that makes me question this theory.

The actual facts from the books as I see it are : 281 Harrenhal tourney where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna.

282 Aegon is born and is believed to be TPWWP by Rhaegar, 282 Rhaegar disappears with Lyanna, we know that at some point they went to the ToJ but we know nothing of their whereabouts prior to this, 282 Robert's rebellion, several battles and Rhaegar is vanished, 283 end of the war, Eddard finds Lyanna at ToJ in a bed of blood (there is nowhere in the books that she gave birth but I think that we can safely assume this), 3KG are with her.

The rest is an effort to put things together, speculations and assumptions on personal beliefs. All that is needed is one important clue that might be missing and the whole story could change completely so until we have all the clues we can't reach safe conclusions.

This is a very 'bare-bones' list of the facts we know. There is a ton of evidence to support the theory that you seem to be ignoring.

It hasn't been confirmed in the books that Lyanna gave birth at the ToJ, correct. But we have multiple references to a woman in the birth bed being referred to as a 'bed of blood.' And that's just one of the pieces of evidence...

And there is no way that there would be so many hints throughout the series towards this theory, then only one missing piece makes everything else irrelevant. As many before me have pointed out, the fact that most of the evidence comes from A Game of Thrones is a piece of evidence in itself. GRRM didn't know he was going to write 7 books, at that time there was only a plan for a trilogy (which quickly turned into 4 books). Given that, he laid the foreshadowing on pretty thick in that book. My point is he has had a plan about this since the beginning and there's no way he would be planting the seed for R+L=J so much if it wasn't indeed true.

[corbon]

I can't believe that he would just let them go or that he believed that they would accept it anyway so if a suggestion it was useless and he knew it imo. And even if he wanted to do this I don't think that the rest of his party would allow it.

You seriously think that those companions he chose to bring would, or could, have overruled him?

Ned cares enough to warn even Cersei. Also the KG were the enemy and he didn't have the power to pardon them, the honorable thing would be to deliver them to Robert where they would be pardoned as Selmy was if bent the knee.

He explicitly (IIRC?) warned Cersei so she'd have a chance to save the children. Its nothing approaching a similar circumstance.

Who said anything about pardoning them? He just doesn't care what happens to them at all. They can go and 'protect' Viserys and who cares, he's not currently enarmoured of 'King' Robert anyway, the rebellion has been won, all he wants is to get his sister and go home. The fate - death, exile, pardoning or otherwise, of the three KG is simply not important enough to him anymore for any of his friends to die over.

Finally I strongly believe Ned was a stupid man. He was honorable and loyal but stupid. His honor and duty blinded him to the most obvious facts and incapacitated him from foreseeing even the most eminent danger.

Stupid, in a way, yes. But not unintelligent. He's smart enough, that is shown many times. He just chooses unwise courses at certain times because those are what the man he wants to be would do.

[three-eyed monkey]

A couple others have discussed that the KG was not ignoring their vow by staying at the ToJ, and kudos to them. They did a great job and I agree with everything the say.

The only thing else I will bring up is you mention that those were the 3 KG members that Rhaegar trusted and they were willing to forsake their KG vows to listen to Rhaegar's orders. I MIGHT be able to believe this about Dayne, and MAYBE Whent. Because we do have plenty of evidence to show Dayne and Rhaegar were close. And there is enough speculative evidence that Whent was pro-Rhaegar as well. But we don't have the same for Hightower.

We have the opposite for Hightower. By all indications he was very honorable and very loyal Aerys because of his vows. When Aerys was roasting Lord Rickard Stark and having Brandon Stark strangle himself, Jaime Lannister was disgusted, obviously visibly disgusted by this. Let's face it, who wouldn't be disgusted by this unless you are mad? It was Hightower who pulled him aside and told him that they took vows to protect the king, not to judge him (something along those lines).

Hightower's presence and conviction at the ToJ was always the deciding factor for me in the discussion about Jon's heritage and legitimacy.

I've believed R+L=J since AGoT, certainly the L part with R the most likely father, and since coming to these boards a few months back and seeing stuff I missed like the KG vows argument, I do think J is legit. But I do think there may be some room for interpretation here so it is worth examining. The 3KG GRRM placed at the ToJ is very interesting, especially Hightower. So let me drag in something I posted in another thread about Rhaegar's 'conspiracy'... Ockham's razor aside for a moment.

Firstly, as far as Harrenhal is concerned I think Varys was half-right. Rhaegar was involved in conspiracy but not with the Lords that were present. If Rhaegar had been conspiring with Arryn, Tully and co. to remove Aerys then I can't see it coming to battle on the Trident, despite how Robert may have felt. Surely former co-conspirators would parley and not fight if they shared the common goal of removing the king? So who was Rhaegar conspiring with? He did tell Jaime that he was planning to make changes before he rode for the Trident and seemed to rue not acting earlier. But did he plan these changes alone or did he conspire with others? Imo it was probably the latter so conspiracy is certainly on the cards.

So who would Rhaegar trust? His best friend Dayne, certainly.

Jaime? Clearly not, he had no knowledge of what these changes might be when Rhaegar spoke to him.

Selmy? Well, not according to his pov in ADwD wher he states he was never in Rhaegar's inner circle.

Whent? I think so because he was at the ToJ with Rhaegar, most likely from the beginning as he and Dayne seem to be absent from the rebellion. Plus he seemed to be involved in organising the tourney in Harrenhal which may well have been connected to the conspiracy unless Varys was completely wrong, (which I doubt).

Darry? Hard to tell. House Whent were loyal to Aerys and sided with him over Hoster Tully in the rebellion so my feeling is no.

Martell? Possible. Aerys didn't trust him, maybe based on paranoia or maybe on information Varys had that Martell was conspiring with Rhaegar. Either way, Aerys reminded Martell that he had Elia and kids as hostages, and later got it in his head that Martell must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident. When we consider Rhaegar's connection to Dorne through Dayne and Elia, Martell could well be more of a probable conspirator than a possible one.

The honourable White Bull, Ser Gerold Hightower? You'd think not, but on the other hand he knew to find Rhaegar at the ToJ when it seems Aerys didn't know where the prince was when Joncon was exiled. And Hightower stayed there at Rhaegar's command when all other available KG were being tactically deployed; Jaime as a 'hostage' in KL, Darry and Selmy to Stoney Sept to rally Joncon's troops, Martell to take command of the Dornish troops coming up from the south. Surely Aerys would have liked to have the LC of the KG, Whent, and the Sword of the Morning at his disposal too when things were going pear-shaped after the Battle of the Bells. This leads me to think Hightower may have been more loyal to the prince than he was the king, despite his remarks about KG's job being to protect the king not judge him, which we must remember was said to the fifteen-year-old son of Tywin Lannister. Was Hightower incapable of lying? As you said, who wouldn't be disgusted by Aerys actions unless they were mad, so do you think Hightower was mad? In his defence, considering his reputation, if he was a conspirator I think he was a reluctant one. He clearly tells Ned he dissaproved of the kingslayers actions.

I would further speculate that other conspirators may have included Ashara Dayne and maybe even Elia. If Lemore=Ashara then we might have one living conspirator who could shed some light on Rhaegar's plans in the course of the next two books.

Finally, I've also wondered if it is possible that Rhaegar took Lyanna to KL, Aerys raped her, and then Rhaegar fled with her to ToJ or something along that line. My feeling here is that the time between Brandon's arrest and Jon's birth is longer than 9 months but I'm not a hundred percent sure of the timelines so maybe someone could help me out with that, one way or another? A bit crackpot, in fact I first saw this suggestion on the crackpot thread, but I just wanted to rule it out.

[Budj]

Your last statement would be the ultimate plot twist. We are so convinced it's Rhaegar, but what if we don't know something that happened in-between the kidnapping and them arriving at the ToJ?

That said I think it would be more public knowledge that Rhaegar had Lyanna at KL prior to mysteriously disappearing with her if they did pit stop before going to the ToJ.

Also - I think you are right in that Rhaegar already had some houses in on his plan - I think Harrenhal was probably the attempt to clue everyone else in which Varys (who I hope isn't a eunuch so someone can make him one again for all the trouble he has caused) so pleasantly screwed up.

[Alia of the knife]

I think the whole problem with the conspiracy thing is that sometimes, the simplest explaination is the best explaination.

It's not fun, or glamourous, but nonetheless, Rhaegar meeting and fallling in love with Lyanna, derailing whatever he was initially in Harrenal for seems the most likely.

A friend of mine also pointed out Aemons statement about love being the death of duty, and then you couple that with Selmys conversation with Dany on whether Rhaegar married for duty, or love, and he apparently married for duty, (doesn't negate the value of Elia, but the heart wants what the heart wants), and his statement that Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it, makes if pretty clear what happened.

I think ultimately, Rhaegar is Dany's "morality" tale on what not to do, though he may have been a good man. I think Martin is building Rhaegar up in Danys hero worship of him, putting him on this impossible pedestal- only to have the truth come out, and she has to decide who she is.

I don't like Dany at the moment, but if Martin likes her and she's an intended heroine, then who am I to quibble?

Or, she may make if not the same mistakes, similar in terms of questionable judgement.

I really think that the story of Rhaegar is about the shining hope of the Targaryen Dynasty who is on the verge of greatness- and then missteps, but ends up leaving a valuable legacy behind- Jon.

- Aerys and rape, I think if he raped anyone, the likely candidate was Ashara Dayne. (though I think it was Brandon who dishonored her), but if we're talking alternative, workable theories, then this could work. He may not have had access to her at Court as Rhaella and Elia likely had seperate retinues, but Harrenhal was a cluster of of chaos and crowds.

That may have also been the thing that tipped Arthur from waiting for Rhaegar just to assume the throne on Aerys death to actively participating in a "GOT" and a coup, which according to Selmy, KG should not be doing.

But, again thats a little crackpot, and yet another Tarygaryen "baby daddy" scenario.

I think the Starks pretty much had Lyanna under watch after the crowning incident, and prior to that, it doesn't indicate any contact with the Tarygaryens until KotLT. Also Jon would also be too young to have been concieved at Harrenhal.

- With the Martels. Again, Dorne was angry over Rhaegars betrayal of Elia and that was why the Dorne marched less than enthusiastically up Kings Road to join Rhaegars forces.

I think with the Martels, your looking at a place and a House that probably borders on the same pride, arragance and privledge that the Targaryens do. They're really only allied with the Targaryensin, so alienating a good portion of the Westerosi, (though Elias Mother did try and match her children with Cersei and Oberyn, but I think thats due to her personal friendship with Joanna), so it's likely the Targaryens were their real "claim to fame."

Now, they are just trying to shore up what power and defenses they have to get back on top, or at least to protect themselves from the chaos around them. They're good at defense, but not so much maybe on overt offense.

They may still scheme to put a Tarygaryen back on the throne as in Arianne and Viserys, as well as Dany, but I think it's clear they don't know about "Aegon" when if they were apart of something he should have been the first one they knew about and supported. If they knew of Jon, they might try and secure him for Arianne, (Arianne is the Martels "Margery" I think and when they do find out about "Aegon", she'll go into seduction mode), and if Arya ends up in their midst, they will use her too if they can- maybe with Tristan.

At this point in the Kingdom, it's anybodys game.

[Lord Gautham Girishankar]

I am worried that considering the whole R+L=J is not going to be a surprise anymore to a lot of people...GRRM might now change his storyline to bring more twists and not give us this though he intended to initially..and that sucks

[King Doug]

The honourable White Bull, Ser Gerold Hightower? You'd think not, but on the other hand he knew to find Rhaegar at the ToJ when it seems Aerys didn't know where the prince was when Joncon was exiled. And Hightower stayed there at Rhaegar's command when all other available KG were being tactically deployed; Jaime as a 'hostage' in KL, Darry and Selmy to Stoney Sept to rally Joncon's troops, Martell to take command of the Dornish troops coming up from the south. Surely Aerys would have liked to have the LC of the KG, Whent, and the Sword of the Morning at his disposal too when things were going pear-shaped after the Battle of the Bells. This leads me to think Hightower may have been more loyal to the prince than he was the king, despite his remarks about KG's job being to protect the king not judge him, which we must remember was said to the fifteen-year-old son of Tywin Lannister. Was Hightower incapable of lying? As you said, who wouldn't be disgusted by Aerys actions unless they were mad, so do you think Hightower was mad? In his defence, considering his reputation, if he was a conspirator I think he was a reluctant one. He clearly tells Ned he dissaproved of the kingslayers actions.

I definitely agree with your evaluation of the trust Rhaegar had with the other 6 KG members. In my opinion, Ser Gerold Hightower was a very honorable and dutiful man. Most importantly, I think he was a very 'by the book' type of Lord Commander. If his orders from the king were to "find Rhaegar and bring him back to KL," then he would have escorted Rhaegar back personally. But I think his orders were to find him and tell him to come back to lead this army. Once he found Rhaegar, he was free to obey (so were Dayne and Whent) Rhaegar's orders because they did not conflict with their orders from the king, or did they conflict with their primary duty to preotect the king since the king was protected.

I think that Aerys trusted Rhaegar's ability to delegate duties because Rhaegar was given the command of the loyalist forces. Therefore he trusted that the KG members were being utilized properly.

[three-eyed monkey]

Can't disagree with you King Doug.

But another thing I'd like to know is if it was common knowledge that Rhaegar was at ToJ? Jamie knew that he had returned from the south before going to the Trident, but he never mentions the ToJ. My impression has always been that the ToJ was a secret location to some degree at least, but I may be wrong.Two big questions arise from this imo. 1) How did Hightower know where to find Rhaegar, when it seems Aerys did not, and did he withold this informaion from the king? And of course, 2) How did Ned know where to go after lifting the siege at Storm's End?

[King Doug]

I definitely think the ToJ was a secret hiding place for Rhaegar. I think that it never existed until he needed a place to hide her. If 2 men (Ned and Howland Reed) can bring down the tower on their own to build the cairns then that tells me it was very hastily built, or it was seriously old. But my hunch is it was hastily built.

How did HIghtower know where to find him? Great question.

It's a pretty common theory and I agree with it...I think it is likely Ned learned of their whereabouts from Ashara. Hightower very well could have learned the same way, or Rhaegar had told him

[three-eyed monkey]

Yeah, my own guess is Ned sailed from Storm's End to Starfall, looking for Dayne, spoke with Ashara and went on to the ToJ from there. This is why I suspect Ashara as having been on board with Rhaegar's plan.

I also think Rhaegar must have told Hightower where he was, which might indicate Hightower kept it from Aerys after Joncon's exile, and that is why I suspect Hightower might have been on board too. (But I'm not sure if the text supports the fact that Aerys didn't know where Rhaegar was?)

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Honestly, reading all this...i hope it doesn't turn out to be true.

I'm hoping that he's just a bastard who was raised well and has the honor/courage necessary to rise up in the world.