R+L=J v.30

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Your comments about Elia imo are highly diminishing and I don't understand the reason. Rhaegar was fond of Elia, she may not be his one true love but the majority of marriages were political, plus Elia was considerably beautiful.

Which is why Rhaegar wouldn't absolve his marriage to Elia, since he truly cared for her. She would still be able to maintain her power and position. Considering her health and inability to produce children Rhaegar could have easily ended his marriage to Elia.

[kg1982]

It would also be an insult to Dorne. Most likely, Rhaegar was thinking open marriage with Lyanna as the second wife.

[JonTargaryenW/Viserion4WIN]

Here is a hypothetical that may have some bearing on the legitimacy of Jon as King.

We know Rhaegar died first on the Trident. Then Aerys in the throne room. And then presumably Aegon died in the royal chambers at the hand of Gregor.

What if Jon wasn't born by this point?

The crown would go to Viserys. But then when Jon was born, considering he is the trueborn son of a married R and L, does he become king, essentially uncrowning Viserys?

[SteelAndSnow]

Here is a hypothetical that may have some bearing on the legitimacy of Jon as King.

We know Rhaegar died first on the Trident. Then Aerys in the throne room. And then presumably Aegon died in the royal chambers at the hand of Gregor.

What if Jon wasn't born by this point?

The crown would go to Viserys. But then when Jon was born, considering he is the trueborn son of a married R and L, does he become king, essentially uncrowning Viserys?

Yes I would think so because everything would happen so fast that people would get all the news at the same time it wouldn't matter. But I don't think that is what happened. Jon was born before Aegon died at least and after Rhaegar died. Maybe.

[Lord of Insignificance]

Martin said that Jon's story is "star wars" like. Everyone immediatley started to find a twin for Jon. Perhaps he just meant that he was raised by his uncle.

[JonTargaryenW/Viserion4WIN]

Martin said that Jon's story is "star wars" like. Everyone immediatley started to find a twin for Jon. Perhaps he just meant that he was raised by his uncle.

Perhaps he meant that Jon will eventually fight and save his bionic dad Rhaegar.

[dragontamer]

Which is why Rhaegar wouldn't absolve his marriage to Elia, since he truly cared for her. She would still be able to maintain her power and position. Considering her health and inability to produce children Rhaegar could have easily ended his marriage to Elia.

Let's agree on this, Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other. I think we can agree on this too, Rhaegar did have some sense left to think of his current family and children and the realm and not run away like a love stricken juvenile. I can accept that in his head it was important to have a third child and out of love he prefered this child to be with Lyanna. I can also accept that to honor his relationship with Lyanna he proposed to marry her too and make their child legitimate. What I can't explain and thus accept is, first, why did he keep it a secret? It would be much more honorable to ask for her family's approval and less complicated and second, why did Lyanna accept to marry Rhaegar while he was married? Mind that Lyanna is a Stark who don't believe in polygamy but honor the marriage union in the presence of the Seven.

And one question. Do you think that if Elia was able to have other children Rhaegar wouldn't have run with Lyanna?

[The guy from the Vale]

Let's agree on this, Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other. I think we can agree on this too, Rhaegar did have some sense left to think of his current family and children and the realm and not run away like a love stricken juvenile. I can accept that in his head it was important to have a third child and out of love he prefered this child to be with Lyanna. I can also accept that to honor his relationship with Lyanna he proposed to marry her too and make their child legitimate. What I can't explain and thus accept is, first, why did he keep it a secret? It would be much more honorable to ask for her family's approval and less complicated and second, why did Lyanna accept to marry Rhaegar while he was married? Mind that Lyanna is a Stark who don't believe in polygamy but honor the marriage union in the presence of the Seven.

And one question. Do you think that if Elia was able to have other children Rhaegar wouldn't have run with Lyanna?

There's the theory that Rhaegar asked Rickard and got the go-ahead, but Brandon didn't get the memo soon enough, and later on Rickard got no chance to explain himself in front of Aerys (or couldn't do so without making matters worse). As for keeping an alliance with a major lord secret from Aerys? Well, that's pretty easily explainable, considering Aerys' paranoia.

I do think that if Elia could have had other children Rhaegar would probably have sticked with her even though he might have loved Lyanna. But that's pretty speculative, and I don't know if asking "what if" helps us all that much.

[Dragonfish]

I can also accept that to honor his relationship with Lyanna he proposed to marry her too and make their child legitimate. What I can't explain and thus accept is, first, why did he keep it a secret? It would be much more honorable to ask for her family's approval and less complicated

What says he didn't ask for her family's approval, and was rejected? What says that Aerys didn't get wind of it, and shut it down? There is every reason to believe that marrying Lyanna would not have had Aerys' approval, and probably not Rickard's either, which explains why they would choose to do it in secret.

and second, why did Lyanna accept to marry Rhaegar while he was married? Mind that Lyanna is a Stark who don't believe in polygamy but honor the marriage union in the presence of the Seven.

Well, I think you've kind of answered your own question here. The Starks follow the old gods, yet they consider marriages performed under the Faith to be legitimate. This shows that they are not dogmatic about their own religion, and are in fact flexible regarding marriage rites. So really, there's no reason that they could not be equally flexible when it comes to polygamy.

[rmholt]

Martin said that Jon's story is "star wars" like. Everyone immediatley started to find a twin for Jon. Perhaps he just meant that he was raised by his uncle.

If nothing else it explains the feelings I have for him, similar to those of Luke Skywalker, meh. Pretty sure it is the secret father deal However, Luke's father was his deadly enemy. We already have the story of the Stark who killed his deadly enemy secret father (Bael). Rhaegar is already dead. Hmm must think. I cant feature Bowen Marsh as Jon's father.

Oh wait, Rhaegar was Ned's enemy. Close enough.

[Dragonfish]

Martin said that Jon's story is "star wars" like. Everyone immediatley started to find a twin for Jon. Perhaps he just meant that he was raised by his uncle.

Martin never said any such thing, as far as I know. That was Alfie Allen, who described Jon's parentage as a Luke Skywalker type of situation.

[Lord of Insignificance]

Perhaps he meant that Jon will eventually fight and save his bionic dad Rhaegar.

Yes!

Hey, perhaps we can have an undead rhaegar that breathes heavily and cuts off Jons hand...oh wait..he already had an undead guy mess up his hand.

Martin never said any such thing, as far as I know. That was Alfie Allen, who described Jon's parentage as a Luke Skywalker type of situation.

yes Alfie Allen asked Martin about it. Thank you for clarifying.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Here is a hypothetical that may have some bearing on the legitimacy of Jon as King.

We know Rhaegar died first on the Trident. Then Aerys in the throne room. And then presumably Aegon died in the royal chambers at the hand of Gregor.

What if Jon wasn't born by this point?

The crown would go to Viserys. But then when Jon was born, considering he is the trueborn son of a married R and L, does he become king, essentially uncrowning Viserys?

It happened a couple times in real life (though I can't remember which royal families at the moment - though someone on this forum will). Basically it is the one time there is no immediate transfer of power in the sense of "the king is dead, long live the king!". As I recall historically the few times a queen was pregnant with a potential heir they waited until the child was born and then the official succession happened. They didn't crown a king and then try and take it away.

So there are two possibilities:

1) they got the news after Jon was born so it wasn't an issue (i.e. even if Viserys had been the real next in line cause Jon wasn't around yet by the time the KG found out his moment had passed) or

2) it was clear that Lyanna was just about to give birth (heck I tend to feel that the news that Rhaegar was dead and KL sacked might have started her labor - big shocks can do that) so given the above they were just going to wait because there was a 50/50 chance that the next king would be born in the tower. Granted this option still means that one of them could have theoretically gone to Dragonstone, but again given the distance if she really was on the cusp of giving birth it might have been easier just to wait a day or two to see what the result was.

[Syrious]

Now, I am quite new to these forums. However I love the Song of Ice and Fire series and have discussed theories like this with friends of mine who have also read the books. I apologize if this is the wrong place to put this, but I have never believed in the so called R+L=J theory. I do not know why, but there are obviously proofs to back me up. I just want to say my point and then it is free for debate.

Beginning in aGoT, most of the Stark children are described as having the Tully traits, auburn hair, blue eyes, etc. The three children of Hoster Tully also share those traits. This leads us to believe that the Tully is the dominant gene, whilst the Stark gene (long face, dull brown hair) is recessive. Now if you move towards the Targaryen genes, which is the silver-blond hair, and pale lilac-coloured eyes. The Targaryen genes are proven dominant, not just within their own family, but all bastards of the Targaryen's have shared those traits, Daemon Blackfyre, Brynden Rivers etc. Now, IF Lyanna and Rhaegar were to have child, and if it was Jon Snow, then based on this biological proof I have just given, it would be very unlikely for the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar to have the Stark genes. Now obviously there is still a possibility of the child having the Stark traits.

As well, if anyone is going to bring up the counter argument that this book is fictional and thus does not have to follow biological things like recessive and dominant genes, George has already displayed inheritance of genetics and looks in the series, and he generally follows realistic views of how they would work.

[The guy from the Vale]

@Syrious:

I think we should exclude Brynden Rivers because albinism is a really rare occurrence, and we know of no other Targaryen albinos.

Then you are forgetting Bloodraven's and Blackfyre's halfbrother Aegor Rivers, calle Bittersteel, who had dark hair.

Then there's the Targaryen crown pince Baelor Breakspear, who had his mother's Dornish colouring, much like his children.

Lastly, there's Jon's half-sister Rhaenys, who had Elia Martell's Dornish colouring, too.

Really, there is no reason whatsoever to assume that Targaryen features are dominant. No family that has Targaryen ancestors, neither Baratheons nor Martells, have the typical silver hair or violet eyes.

[Dragonfish]

Now obviously there is still a possibility of the child having the Stark traits.

Stop. Just stop. You've completely undermined your own argument. Leaving aside the fact that several other Targs were born without Valyrian features, as theguyfromtheVale has pointed out, the fact that a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna's could look like a Stark is all that is required for the theory to be possible.So by your own words, nothing about the genetics of GRRM's world disproves R+L=J.

[Ygrain]

Now, I am quite new to these forums. However I love the Song of Ice and Fire series and have discussed theories like this with friends of mine who have also read the books. I apologize if this is the wrong place to put this, but I have never believed in the so called R+L=J theory. I do not know why, but there are obviously proofs to back me up. I just want to say my point and then it is free for debate.

Beginning in aGoT, most of the Stark children are described as having the Tully traits, auburn hair, blue eyes, etc. The three children of Hoster Tully also share those traits. This leads us to believe that the Tully is the dominant gene, whilst the Stark gene (long face, dull brown hair) is recessive. Now if you move towards the Targaryen genes, which is the silver-blond hair, and pale lilac-coloured eyes. The Targaryen genes are proven dominant, not just within their own family, but all bastards of the Targaryen's have shared those traits, Daemon Blackfyre, Brynden Rivers etc. Now, IF Lyanna and Rhaegar were to have child, and if it was Jon Snow, then based on this biological proof I have just given, it would be very unlikely for the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar to have the Stark genes. Now obviously there is still a possibility of the child having the Stark traits.

As well, if anyone is going to bring up the counter argument that this book is fictional and thus does not have to follow biological things like recessive and dominant genes, George has already displayed inheritance of genetics and looks in the series, and he generally follows realistic views of how they would work.

Sorry but no. First and foremost, the Targ genes are not dominant, they're maintained through the incests. Second, it's untrue that all the targ bastards shared these traits - in Dunk and Egg, you have quite a couple who are dark-haired, and in ASOIAF, you have Rhaegar's daughter who took after Elia and looked Dornish.

As for the Stark genes, all it takes is a single red-haired ancestor in Ned's lineage whose gene he inherited, and, since it is a recessive gene, it was not manifest in Ned (heterozygous pairing, A - dominant, a - recessive). However, when he married Catelyn (homozygous, aa), you have three recessive copies of the gene versus just one dominant entering the genetic lotery, so the fact that most of their kids turned out auburn-haired is not surprising.

[Syrious]

@Syrious:

I think we should exclude Brynden Rivers because albinism is a really rare occurrence, and we know of no other Targaryen albinos.

Then you are forgetting Bloodraven's and Blackfyre's halfbrother Aegor Rivers, calle Bittersteel, who had dark hair.

Then there's the Targaryen crown pince Baelor Breakspear, who had his mother's Dornish colouring, much like his children.

Lastly, there's Jon's half-sister Rhaenys, who had Elia Martell's Dornish colouring, too.

Really, there is no reason whatsoever to assume that Targaryen features are dominant. No family that has Targaryen ancestors, neither Baratheons nor Martells, have the typical silver hair or violet eyes.

Rhaenys and Baelor are true, however Bittersteel did have violet eyes, which is one Targaryen trait. Yes those are two Targaryen's which oppose the common genes. As well, the Martell's are all descended from Nymeria and Mors Martell, there may have been a few marriages in the past. But none consistent enough to keep the Targaryen gene going. As for the Baratheon's, in aGoT it is proven that "the seed is strong" as Jon Arryn said before he died, as well as when Ned traced back their lineage.

[The guy from the Vale]

Rhaenys and Baelor are true, however Bittersteel did have violet eyes, which is one Targaryen trait. Yes those are two Targaryen's which oppose the common genes. As well, the Martell's are all descended from Nymeria and Mors Martell, there may have been a few marriages in the past. But none consistent enough to keep the Targaryen gene going. As for the Baratheon's, in aGoT it is proven that "the seed is strong" as Jon Arryn said before he died, as well as when Ned traced back their lineage.

You're picking and choosing here. Valyrian traits are pretty clearly not dominant, and certainly doesn't preclude the Stark look, as Ygrain pointed out to you quite conveniently.

[stanprollyright]

As for the Stark genes, all it takes is a single red-haired ancestor in Ned's lineage whose gene he inherited, and, since it is a recessive gene, it was not manifest in Ned (heterozygous pairing, A - dominant, a - recessive). However, when he married Catelyn (homozygous, aa), you have three recessive copies of the gene versus just one dominant entering the genetic lotery, so the fact that most of their kids turned out auburn-haired is not surprising.

:lol: I don't think GRRM is reading that much into genetics.