POVs, Unreliable Narrator, and You

[evita mgfs]

Do you just sit around all day finding grammatical errors? This has literally nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

Is that remark meant as a disparagement? You are implying all I do is look for grammar errors when I read, as if my life is unfulfilling and I have nothing else to amuse me.

Because the OP asked for contributions regarding limited-third person and shifts I am now a grammar Nazi? My son says that is an insult as well. I have him proof-read my posts now to make sure I do not use colors or write anything inflammatory. But you didn't call me "Nazi" - that would definitely have been inflammatory.

How is Martin shifting from third person point of view to second person "you" not a viable contribution?

The OP said, Dr. Pepper and I have had some discussions in other threads about the narrative style used within ASOIAF and how we can use this knowledge to better understand the subject material.

My thread happens to discuss narrative style.

Again, I apologize for pointing out grammar errors in narratives I noted that are not expressed in the OP. :dunno:

It has been made clear my observations are misplaced. :eek:

[Lady Sharya]

Is that remark meant as a disparagement? You are implying all I do is look for grammar errors when I read, as if my life is unfulfilling and I have nothing else to amuse me.

Because the OP asked for contributions regarding limited-third person and shifts I am now a grammar Nazi? My son says that is an insult as well. I have him proof-read my posts now to make sure I do not use colors or write anything inflammatory. But you didn't call me "Nazi" - that would definitely have been inflammatory.

How is Martin shifting from third person point of view to second person "you" not a viable contribution?

The OP said, Dr. Pepper and I have had some discussions in other threads about the narrative style used within ASOIAF and how we can use this knowledge to better understand the subject material.

My thread happens to discuss narrative style.

Again, I apologize for pointing out grammar errors in narratives I noted that are not expressed in the OP. :dunno:

It has been made clear my observations are misplaced. :eek:

No, your observations are NOT misplaced. The shift in narration you point out fall within the scope of the OP, are not simply "grammar errors" and are worth noting.

[evita mgfs]

No, your observations are NOT misplaced. The shift in narration you point out fall within the scope of the OP, are not simply "grammar errors" and are worth noting.

:bowdown: :bowdown: Thank you for your voice of reason. But does this mean the hate is personal? :dunce:

I shall return to hunt for grammar errors in Joyce's Ulysses. Just kidding!

[Lady Sharya]

:bowdown: :bowdown: Thank you for your voice of reason. But does this mean the hate is personal? :dunce:

I shall return to hunt for grammar errors in Joyce's Ulysses. Just kidding!

I read that whole thread when you posted it and appreciated having it pointed out to me how clever Martin is in shifting narrative to evoke a more powerful response in the reader.

I wasn't a Lit major so I don't really know much about the way writers uses different narrative styles to engage the reader. His use of "you" in the scenes you point out put me in the story very effectively.

[evita mgfs]

I read that whole thread when you posted it and appreciated having it pointed out to me how clever Martin is in shifting narrative to evoke a more powerful response in the reader.

I wasn't a Lit major so I don't really know much about the way writers uses different narrative styles to engage the reader. His use of "you" in the scenes you point out put me in the story very effectively.

:bowdown: Yes. That was my point. :cheers: I wanted, first of all, to publish "original thought" - and not repeat the same thread topics that glut the forum. Second, I wanted to emphasize how Martin engages language purposefully. From my post,

“Will threaded their way through a thicket, then started up the slope to the low ridge where he had found his vantage point under a sentinel tree. Under the thin crust of snow, the ground was damp and muddy, slick footing, with rocks and hidden roots to trip you up. Will made no sound as he climbed” (7).

Ser Waymar Royce orders Will to “Lead on”, to guide him to the location of the fallen wildlings. As Royce follows Will, so do the readers, albeit figuratively.

The conditions are treacherous, “Under the crust of snow, the ground was damp and muddy, slick footing with rocks and hidden roots to trip YOU up” (7).

Martin once again shifts from third person pronouns to the ubiquitous “YOU”, and he warns the audience of poor footholds and hidden perils that will “trip them up” if they are not paying attention. Martin is a master of metaphor, and beneath the “crust” of pages and words, is the subtext where Martin buries his remarkable treasure trove of literary conventions, allusions, language patterns, sensory details, and so much more.

Martin focuses on “rocks and hidden roots” as the pitfalls that cause the walkers to “stumble”; just so, readers may stumble as well, over the words, the characters, the themes, the deaths. However, more likely the rocks and roots symbolize misinformation, unreliable narrators, a skewed timeline, unofficial deaths, red-herrings, riddles, and similar ways Martin ‘trips up’ his readers. He hides clues in plain sight, like the rocks on a footpath.

I sing in praise of Martin the song of ice and fire - well, no, my voice is very bad. :crying:

[evita mgfs]

evita mgfs, I did not mean to be offensive, I just personally think it is more difficult to read so I was honesty wondering if you had a reason to use then. I could have been in the minority and there is other people giving you feedback of liking it or something, I was just giving my feedback, it was not personal in any way. Of course you can have different opinions than I do.

And as for grammar, I think this place was more to discuss about unreliable narrators and GRRM choises what to reveal through them and not about errors. But this maybe just me wanting to avoid talking to grammar because English is not my first language so I can not really participate ;) It was again, just an opinion, I am not the OP.

That's okay. I should be used to it. I have no fans in this thread, but that has nothing to do with you.

I have just returned to westeros after a year hiatus. Many posters left en masse because of unkindness on the forums.

I am sensitive - as I put a year's worth of work into my essays based on close readings of passages from AGoT. Moreover, I only cited parts of a very detailed essay.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I would never assume to be the end all authority. Literary analysis is based on assumptions with evidences from the texts and insightful analytical commentary.

As a retired teacher, I think your writing is excellent. You can be very proud. My exchange students knew their grammar and wrote far better than many of the students whose native language was English! :cheers:

The OP addressed limited 3rd - to discuss any style of storytelling, an author's use of pronouns is detrimental. First person requires an "I" - and a writer can use lots of bad grammar if he "becomes" the narrator - as Twain does in Huckleberry Finn.

Martin does not make mistakes - he does "on-purposes"! My opinion - and self-admittedly atrocious grammar! :dunno:

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Is that remark meant as a disparagement? You are implying all I do is look for grammar errors when I read, as if my life is unfulfilling and I have nothing else to amuse me.

Because the OP asked for contributions regarding limited-third person and shifts I am now a grammar Nazi? My son says that is an insult as well. I have him proof-read my posts now to make sure I do not use colors or write anything inflammatory. But you didn't call me "Nazi" - that would definitely have been inflammatory.

How is Martin shifting from third person point of view to second person "you" not a viable contribution?

The OP said, Dr. Pepper and I have had some discussions in other threads about the narrative style used within ASOIAF and how we can use this knowledge to better understand the subject material.

My thread happens to discuss narrative style.

Again, I apologize for pointing out grammar errors in narratives I noted that are not expressed in the OP. :dunno:

It has been made clear my observations are misplaced. :eek:

I could have said it in a nicer way, but I didn't see the point of bringing up grammatical discrepancies. I have nothing against you personally, and it's only my opinion that I'm expressing. I certainly don't speak for the OP.

Also, if you're color blind then by all means post in a font that allows you to participate without hindrance. I don't think its fair to you if you aren't allowed to fully be a part of the conversation.

[evita mgfs]

I could have said it in a nicer way, but I didn't see the point of bringing up grammatical discrepancies. I have nothing against you personally, and it's only my opinion that I'm expressing. I certainly don't speak for the OP.

Also, if you're color blind then by all means post in a font that allows you to participate without hindrance. I don't think its fair to you if you aren't allowed to fully be a part of the conversation.

Thanks. I wanted to express an opinion as well.

As a fan of Steven Hawkins, my complaints are small beans.

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

evita mgfs, is there some reason for the different colors and fonts? They are a bit annoying and strange. And this thread is not really about grammar.

the different colored font's actually provide clarity I think. And it's kind of about grammar.

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

First person requires an "I" - and a writer can use lots of bad grammar if he "becomes" the narrator - as Twain does in Huckleberry Finn.

Yes exactly! Lot's of author's have played with grammar in many ways...James Frey's novel A Million Little Pieces begins with no capitalization, lot's of spelling mistakes and omitted spaces between words, and as the character becomes more sober the grammar begins to improve. It was an interesting way of portraying how an addicts mind works when high or searching out the next high.

So anytime a profession published author uses grammar in a way that is strikingly "wrong" I think it's important to evaluate it.

Take the shaggydog post evita was referencing. Having Rickon pet the wolf's muzzle first and then the line about licking his fingers, well it's word play to make the reader automatically think the wolf did the licking. Only by really examining it do we see that Rickon licked blood of his fingers, which is a much bigger deal than the wolf doing it!!