Sexual Abuse in ASOIAF (Contains Spoilers)

[Dacie]

I think there's a pretty good case for Euron abusing Aeron sexually. His creaking door hinge traumatic memories coupled with the fact that Euron is a sadistic asshole make it seem pretty likely.

Joffrey and Tommen I'm less sure of. I have no doubt he abused Tommen in some way, but whether it was sexual or not seems more up for debate.

I never got the impression that there was anything inappropriate about Doran watching the children in the water gardens. I think he enjoys the peaceful innocence. It never occurred to me that he'd be some sort of pedophile.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I thing that the only clear sexual abuse by a family member was Viserys-Dany.

Euron/Aeron and Tommen/Joff were bullying.

[ServantOnIce]

I thing that the only clear sexual abuse by a family member was Viserys-Dany.

Euron/Aeron and Tommen/Joff were bullying.

There were things that weren't clear in the books that were made clear on the TV show such as Renly and Loras' sexual relationship and Stannis and Melisandre, we all assumed that they were sexing and the TV show confirmed those notions.

GRRM does a great job of leaving things up to the reader to interpret such as what is Qyburn really doing with those bodies of the young women that have been sent down to the dungeons and what exactly was "tickling."

We shall see, we will keep on reading and as for why I questioned Doran. Prince Martell sounded innocent in his first descriptions of the children at play but in the very final Arienne chapter in AFFC he seems to go well over board into creep territory in my opinion.

Today if a man said what he said about watching kids play nude in the pools, that dude would be quesioned by Law Enforcement and off the baby sitting list.

[Raksha the Demon]

Doran's not a pederast. I think this misses the entire point of the Water Gardens and what he's actually seeing here. The Water Gardens are indeed where children play naked, but he's not leering at their bodies. The point is that, naked, the children are indistinguishable along class lines: you can't tell who is noble and who is not-- all he sees are people.

ETA: Ice, I wasn't disagreeing with you, just expanding.

I wonder if Doran's fondness for watching children play in the Water Gardens stems from the emotional trauma of learning how his sister and her very young children died. It might be an emotional tonic for him to watch the kids playing happily, safe from all harm, and under his protection, after knowing that poor little Rhaenys and baby Aegon died, their mother helpless to save them and then raped and murdered herself.

I don't get any feeling that Doran is a pedophile, though.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

I always thought the cringed door was Aeron prison cell in Lannisport.

I feel no harm too from Doran Martell.

Joffrey seems to me like your usual sociopath, therefore, sexual abuse (and lust) is out of the equation IMO.

[sumpthy]

I always thought the cringed door was Aeron prison cell in Lannisport.

I feel no harm too from Doran Martell.

Joffrey seems to me like your usual sociopath, therefore, sexual abuse (and lust) is out of the equation IMO.

Sexual abuse very rarely has anything to do with lust. It's almost always motivated by the feeling of power which would be right up Joffrey's street.

Saying that, I don't he abused Tommen sexually.

[evita mgfs]

Sadly, I live near lion country where the Sun and Dusk and Sky have combined to destroy a village. Needless to say, little Bran alone with the Blood Raven troubles me, but only for aforesaid reason, I am sure Martin is not suggesting anything. I still hope BR's buttocks are rooted tight to that weirwood throne and that his johnson has long gone rotted off.

[crispygurl]

Wow, you are seriously grasping at straws.

[Lord Martin]

I'm a big supporter of the idea that there was some sort of molestation involving some combination of Euron, Aeron and Urrigion. I am slightly less confident that Tommen was sexually abused, but I think it more likely than not given the theme of sexual abuse that is pervasive in the series.

Here's the text for Aeron, Euron and Urri:

Aeron I:

The sound came softly, the scream of a rusted hinge. "Urri," he muttered, and woke, fearful. There is no hinge here, no door, no Urri. A flying axe took off half of Urri's hand when he was ten-and-four, playing at the finger dance whilst his father and his elder brothers were away at war.

...

Aeron had been glad. It had been his axe that sheared off Urri's hand, whilst they danced the finger dance together, as friends and brothers will.

...

No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could . . . nor memories, the bones of the soul. The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hinge. Euron has come again. It did not matter. He was the Damphair priest, beloved of the god.

...

Nine sons were born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, and I was the least of them, as weak and frightened as a girl. But no longer. That man is drowned, and the god has made me strong.

...

The night was so cold that his body seemed to steam as he stalked back toward his shelter, but there was a fire burning in his heart, and sleep came easily for once, unbroken by the scream of iron hinges.

So what to make of this. He references a rusty hinge several times. The first time he hears it it awakens him as he was starting to doze off, the hinge is his nightmare. Then he things of Urri who died.

One could suppose that Aeron feels guilt for killing his brother. But we are told that Aeron was glad it was his ax? The implication is he is happy it wasn't someone else's ax. Whose?

Then we get the bold faced part. Aeron mentions mortal men, memories and rusty hinges in one sentence and then says "Euron has come again." He hears the rusty hinge and thinks "Euron has come again." This means that the scream of a rusty hinge is what heralds Euron's coming. Clearly there is a bad history here between Euron and Aeron and it has something to do with a rusty hinge.

Then Aeron feminizes himself by saying he was a "girl." This, in my opinion, is a heavy implication of sexual abuse when coupled with the rusty hinge and the thoughts of Euron.

I admit I'm not sure how Urri fits in, but it sounds like he was either another victim of Euron or he stood up to Euron on Aeron's behalf and Euron threatened to kill him.

Now lets go to the next Aeron chapter, chater 19: Its the opening and final paragraphs that matter:

He had run before the Crow's Eye as if he were still the weak thing he had been, but when the waves broke over his head they reminded once more that that man was dead. I was reborn from the sea, a harder man and stronger. No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could, nor the bones of his soul, the grey and grisly bones of his soul. The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hinge.

...

Even a priest may doubt. Even a prophet may know terror. Aeron Damphair reached within himself for his god and discovered only silence. As a thousand voices shouted out his brother's name, all he could hear was the scream of a rusted iron hinge.

Once again, its Euron that is connected to the rust hinge, not Urri. And he says Euron makes him feel weak. Earlier Aeron equated weakness and being made to feel like a woman.

So while I suppose its not iron clad by any means, its heavily implied. At least that is my take on it.

And here it is for Tommen, again its not as strong but its there. From Jaime I:

I have smelled my own hand rotting, when Vargo Hoat made me wear it for a pendant. "A man can bear most anything, if he must," Jaime told his son. I have smelled a man roasting, as King Aerys cooked him in his own armor. "The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing . . . go away inside."

Tommen considered that. "I . . . I used to go away inside sometimes," he confessed, "when Joffy . . ."

"Joffrey." Cersei stood over them, the wind whipping her skirts around her legs. "Your brother's name was Joffrey. He would never have shamed me so."

So I suppose "go away inside" could refer to any kind of abuse. But really does anyone have to hide inside if they are getting punched or kicked? Wouldn't Cersei flip the fuck out if her little Tommen was covered in bruises and wounds? The idea of "going away inside" to protect ones sanity is a common theme in sexual abuse.

For instance in the book (and movie) Mystic River (spoiler alert here people), we know that one of the main characters was kidnapped as young child and repeatedly molested by two awful men. Whenever we get his perspective later on we get flashbacks of "the boy who escaped" and the character talks about 'going away inside" as a means of escaping the torment.

Its good enough for me, but I realize that it might not be good enough for all.

[LannisterShmannister]

To me, the act of "go[ing] away inside" DEFINITELY sounds like sexual abuse. I've heard it from multiple women that when being raped, zoning out and retreating until it's over is often the response. It's an awful thing, truly, when someone completely gives up and lets themselves get used.

Whether or not this is what is meant by GRRM or not remains to be seen (though I doubt it'll ever come up again), however. The signs point to yes, in my opinion.

[Michael Snow]

I'm sorry, but this is pathetic. Euron might have bullied Aeron, but even for that I can't remember any proof. Joffrey and Tommen. Joffrey wasn't interested in the whores Tyrion sent him, why would he be any interested in abusing his little brother sexually. There is no proof of that and even the idea is ridiculous. Only because Tommen was a shy little boy doesn't mean he was sexually or any other way abused by anybody.

And Doran Martell is the top of the whole post. It is one of the most innocent and sweet scenes in the whole series when Doran Martell sits in the garden and watches children bath. That scenes tells of equality, tranquility, innocence, peace. It's pathetic and ridiculous to assume that Doran Martell is an old pedo.

Honestly with this you can even suggest that Tywin sexually abused his father. Because one is a strong person and the other is weak and shy.

Sorry.

Wow, you really have no interest in anything you don't currently agree with, do you? Euron abusing Aeron isn't a might have, he was definitely abusing him in some form. Whether or not it was sexual is up for debate - I think it probably was - but some abuse was definitely happening. There was a POV chapter where he remembers being afraid of Euron creeping into his room at night, and that their other brother had the same concerns. Same with Tommen, he's talking about times Joffrey used to do things to him and his voice trails off before he explicitly states what exactly his brother was doing. You used the fact he wasn't sexually interested in the women Tyrion sent him as proof? Are you serious? Sadists and abusers always have a healthy, regular apetite for sex, that's what you're telling me? And with anyone, anytime, anywhere? If anyone expresses a disinterest in sex with prostitutes, they're certainly NOT sexually violent? Do you not remember Joffrey having Sansa stripped and beaten, and the rush Tyrion saw him getting from it? How Tyrion was disturbed by how mixed up Joffrey was with sex and violence in his head?

Now, I'll agree with you on Doran Martell. I don't think he's sexually attracted to children, not at all. Everything else you said is, honestly, pretty laughable.

[Michael Snow]

I thing that the only clear sexual abuse by a family member was Viserys-Dany.

Euron/Aeron and Tommen/Joff were bullying.

I'll agree that the only clear and proven sexual abuse by a family member was Viserys - Dany. But to say that you know the others were wholly non-sexual? How? There's evidence to suggest it might have been. I'm not saying they were for certain, but for you to say that they definitely weren't is arrogant and baseless.

[Garlan Marius]

A bit off-topic, but this

Sadly, I live near lion country where the Sun and Dusk and Sky have combined to destroy a village.

reminds me of

http://www.ci.sandusky.oh.us/

Not too far from me, if that's true.

[RhaenysBee]

Wow, you really have no interest in anything you don't currently agree with, do you? Euron abusing Aeron isn't a might have, he was definitely abusing him in some form. Whether or not it was sexual is up for debate - I think it probably was - but some abuse was definitely happening. There was a POV chapter where he remembers being afraid of Euron creeping into his room at night, and that their other brother had the same concerns. Same with Tommen, he's talking about times Joffrey used to do things to him and his voice trails off before he explicitly states what exactly his brother was doing. You used the fact he wasn't sexually interested in the women Tyrion sent him as proof? Are you serious? Sadists and abusers always have a healthy, regular apetite for sex, that's what you're telling me? And with anyone, anytime, anywhere? If anyone expresses a disinterest in sex with prostitutes, they're certainly NOT sexually violent? Do you not remember Joffrey having Sansa stripped and beaten, and the rush Tyrion saw him getting from it? How Tyrion was disturbed by how mixed up Joffrey was with sex and violence in his head?

Now, I'll agree with you on Doran Martell. I don't think he's sexually attracted to children, not at all. Everything else you said is, honestly, pretty laughable.

You know it's not that I don't have interest in something I disagree with. I usually disagree with most theories and I'm still on this forum. I'm just tired of trying to prove rape/sexual abuse/domestic violence/pedophilia onto every single relationship there is in ASOIAF. And you know I don't know many sadists and abusers, nor have I any experience being a sadist or an abuser so you can't really expect me to be up to date on their sexual appetite. As for sex with prostitutes, so you are telling me that Joffrey secret molested Tommen and had Sansa publicly stripped, but he just raised an eyebrow at the two gift prostitutes and said, Sorry girls, another time? That should be as realistic as my assumption on abusers sexual appetite.

As far as I am concerned, Joffrey is just a dickhead big brother, like the Frey kids and Aeron a religious maniac. But ah, now I see, it's only because he had a troubled childhood. So sorry again, but there are already too many mental theories I can't get out of my head, I don't need another. And if it turns out to be true, all my apologies and respect in advance.

[The Roaring Bear]

You know it's not that I don't have interest in something I disagree with. I usually disagree with most theories and I'm still on this forum. I'm just tired of trying to prove rape/sexual abuse/domestic violence/pedophilia onto every single relationship there is in ASOIAF. And you know I don't know many sadists and abusers, nor have I any experience being a sadist or an abuser so you can't really expect me to be up to date on their sexual appetite. As for sex with prostitutes, so you are telling me that Joffrey secret molested Tommen and had Sansa publicly stripped, but he just raised an eyebrow at the two gift prostitutes and said, Sorry girls, another time? That should be as realistic as my assumption on abusers sexual appetite.

As far as I am concerned, Joffrey is just a dickhead big brother, like the Frey kids and Aeron a religious maniac. But ah, now I see, it's only because he had a troubled childhood. So sorry again, but there are already too many mental theories I can't get out of my head, I don't need another. And if it turns out to be true, all my apologies and respect in advance.

I would actually say that his lack of interest in the prostitutes, along with Tommen's remarks about going away inside and his humiliating Sansa all point to a sexual predator.

He gets off on the power trip, it makes sense he would not be aroused by someone who is willing and waiting.

Oh, and in regards to the whole Doran thing (this is in response to the original poster)... come on, nothing wrong with an old man reminiscing on the joys of youth by watching young children play without a care in the world.... not creepy.

[Lord Martin]

I don't get the pederast vibe from Doran. He's just an old fuddy duddy.

And remember the prostitute scene is a creation of the show, that isn't in the books. So I wouldn't read too much into Joffrey in the books based on that.

[The Roaring Bear]

I don't get the pederast vibe from Doran. He's just an old fuddy duddy.

And remember the prostitute scene is a creation of the show, that isn't in the books. So I wouldn't read too much into Joffrey in the books based on that.

True, but we do know that GrrM gave D&D info that the rest of us dont know, and the show has made sure to explicitly show things that were only hinted at in the books before, so it can be used as a tool. You are right though and there is a difference, and since GrrM has also said that the show may take its own path different from the books down the road we must be careful when trying to use the show as said tool.

[ServantOnIce]

True, but we do know that GrrM gave D&D info that the rest of us dont know, and the show has made sure to explicitly show things that were only hinted at in the books before, so it can be used as a tool. You are right though and there is a difference, and since GrrM has also said that the show may take its own path different from the books down the road we must be careful when trying to use the show as said tool.

That is very accurate, this has been a great discussion. Without getting too "real world" on her I have witnessed the interview of folks who were sexually assaulted and communicated with a woman who was sexually assaulted by her boyfriend's friend.

The thing about "going away inside" and the "rusty hinge" remind me of things I have heard folks say.

The one woman raped by her boyfriends' buddy told me about looking up at the ceiling fan while it happened, and still remember the sounds of the ceiling fan . . .

That's why . . . brilliant writing by GRRM though . .. the man is a genius.

I will admit, I was WRONG about Prince Doran Martell. He is just rejoicing of the innocence of young children that life snatches away from all of us.

[Winter's Knight]

To me, the act of "go[ing] away inside" DEFINITELY sounds like sexual abuse. I've heard it from multiple women that when being raped, zoning out and retreating until it's over is often the response. It's an awful thing, truly, when someone completely gives up and lets themselves get used.

Whether or not this is what is meant by GRRM or not remains to be seen (though I doubt it'll ever come up again), however. The signs point to yes, in my opinion.

Interestingly, Jaime gives Brienne the same advice when they're captured by the Bloody Mummers.

“Wench,” he whispered as Zollo and Rorge were cursing one another, “let them have the meat, and you go far away. It will be over quicker, and they’ll get less pleasure from it.”

“They’ll get no pleasure from what I’ll give them,” she whispered back, defiant.

....

Yet he heard himself whisper, “Let them do it, and go away inside.” That was what he’d done, when the Starks had died before him, Lord Rickard cooking in his armor while his son Brandon strangled himself trying to save him. “Think of Renly, if you loved him. Think of Tarth, mountains and seas, pools, waterfalls, whatever you have on your Sapphire Isle, think . . .”

[Valyrian Spoon]

The description of the rusty hinge and a victim/ especially a child waiting for a "night time visitor" has been used so often in books, t.v and films it's almost a cliche. The fact that it's nearly always connected with sexual abuse, and the fact that GRRM still decided to include it makes me believe that Euron was molesting at least one or maybe both his younger brothers.

I'm not sold on Joffrey molesting Tommen. That being said I wouldn't put anything past Joffrey, as another poster pointed out sexual violence is nearly always about power over a victim. IIRC didn't he threaten to rape Sansa even after she was married to Tyrion.