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mcb

Two kings to wake a dragon

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I'm re-reading the series, and in the first Jon chapter of ADWD I found: "Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and the son, so both die kings" - something that one of queen's men murmured in fever. If indeed that "procedure" works, which two kings - father first and the son - could be offed to wake a dragon?

And another thought: didn't Mirri Maz Duur and Dany stumble on it, unwittingly and by accident? Khal Drogo and the Stallion who Mounts the World, unborn yet but already worshiped as a king. Of course I see discrepancies between the recipe from the first paragraph and what actually happened in AGOT, but I see interesting similarities, too.

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Could it be rhaegar( a prince yes, but very loved n admired n was meant to be king) and jon(assuming r+l=j) both r dead(assuming jon is dead) n jon can either wake up as a dragon(targ) or maybe there is actually some dragon that is waiting to be born or awoken.

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I dont think there are any more dragons to be born, at this point in the story it is too late to have any importance at all. A dragon being awoken however, would be different. So jon finding an egg in the crypts of winterfell would be pointless him finding a live sleeping dragon would be more interesting. Especially if he can control it, this would also help people to see he is a targ.

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"Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and the son, so both die kings" - something that one of queen's men murmured in fever. If indeed that "procedure" works, which two kings - father first and the son - could be offed to wake a dragon?

My first (obvious) thought was the two kings are the King Beyond the Wall, Mance Rayder and his son. Since it's a Queen's man doing the muttering, this seems the logical choice. But anotherfather/son combination could also work.

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I thought this was mentioned elsewhere too - but alls that does is lay out a succession. Perhaps Robb was the first and Jon the second...

You could also use Aerys and Jon - skipping Rhaegar since he died before Aerys.

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Depends on your definition of "alive". Drogo was on his way out when Mirri Maz Duur did her thing, but he was still still biologically living and breathing when Dany miscarried Rhaego.

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Depends on your definition of "alive". Drogo was on his way out when Mirri Maz Duur did her thing, but he was still still biologically living and breathing when Dany miscarried Rhaego.

Unless drogo was transferred to the horse n killed and the horse transferred into drogo as some believe.

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Could it be rhaegar( a prince yes, but very loved n admired n was meant to be king) and jon(assuming r+l=j) both r dead(assuming jon is dead) n jon can either wake up as a dragon(targ) or maybe there is actually some dragon that is waiting to be born or awoken.

I think this theory gains appeal in light of the most recent revelations of the AppOfIceAndFire, that Robb has indeed legitimized Jon as his heir. So assuming that Jon actually dies at the end of Dance, he would indeed die a King.

Rhaegar ostentsibly died before following Aerys on the Iron Throne though and the prophecy seems to specify a father/son combination. (which is why Robb/Jon or Aerys/Jon might not cut it).

I speculate that Rhaegar was plotting against Aerys. He might have crowned himself King at the Tower of Joy, ursurper style.

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While it's a case of grandfather/grandson, not father/son, in some ways the Sack of King's Landing also qualifies. Aerys and Aegon died shortly after another, with Aegon being killed after Aerys.

Since Rhaegar was dead by that time, Aegon was king for a very short time.

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The two kings to wake the dragons refers to the incident at Summerhall where I believe we will find that Aegon V dies first quickly followed by his son Duncan the small. On that day Rhaegar was born, Rhaegar being The Dragon. Upon Rhaegar's death, the mantle passed on to Daenaerys.

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On the subject of winterfells crypt, why do the most recent graves start at the top? The oldest would be at the top going down, unless they purposefully decided to start really deep down, and add some more on top.

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Wasn't Mel's original plan to burn Mance and his son? As part of her obsession with burning those of 'King's Blood'. It would seem obvious that this was what the man was refering to. It could well have another meaning (unknown to the speaker) as Mel changed her mind about burning both Mance (the glamour swap) and the boy.

So father's and sons who have died as 'kings' (in the right order, and haven't been mentioned yet):

Robert and Joffery (at least officially)

Ned and Robb (Ned isn't technically a King but I think most in the North viewed him as one)

Rhaegar and Viserys ("crown for king", Viserys died a King and while Rhaegar was never crowned he was pretty much king during the end of his crazy father's reign): Wakes the dragon in Dany, in that her allowing/requesting her brother's death marks the start of both her climb to power and her fall into madness.

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On the subject of winterfells crypt, why do the most recent graves start at the top? The oldest would be at the top going down, unless they purposefully decided to start really deep down, and add some more on top.

Interesting question. One must wonder what happens when the crypt gets filled up, as there would be no way to extend it while keeping the chronological order.

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What about Jon and Jon? Once a king through his Targ side (assuming R+L=J), and once through his Stark side, through Robb's will.

Came here to post exactly this. I will look at two possibilities here:

1. Jon is both the two kings and the dragon himself - king of the North because his brother legitimized him, rightful heir to the Targ dynasty because of his father, and a dragon, when related to prophecy, almost always refers to a Targaryen and not a literal dragon (kudos Apple Martini for this revelation). So, king by himself, king because of his father, and now needs to wake up a dragon (not necessarily meaning he will embrace his Targ side, but rather will be the one to fight the Others, the one to bring the light (lightbringer))

2. Rhaegar is the father, Jon is the son, but here comes the problem tha Rhaegar was never really king.

Still, kill the boy and let the man be born - I think that's what happened in ADWD Jon XIII. He with his own actions, and his brothers killed the boy.

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The two kings to wake the dragons refers to the incident at Summerhall where I believe we will find that Aegon V dies first quickly followed by his son Duncan the small. On that day Rhaegar was born, Rhaegar being The Dragon. Upon Rhaegar's death, the mantle passed on to Daenaerys.

Wasn't Mel's original plan to burn Mance and his son? As part of her obsession with burning those of 'King's Blood'. It would seem obvious that this was what the man was refering to. It could well have another meaning (unknown to the speaker) as Mel changed her mind about burning both Mance (the glamour swap) and the boy. So father's and sons who have died as 'kings' (in the right order, and haven't been mentioned yet): Robert and Joffery (at least officially) Ned and Robb (Ned isn't technically a King but I think most in the North viewed him as one) Rhaegar and Viserys ("crown for king", Viserys died a King and while Rhaegar was never crowned he was pretty much king during the end of his crazy father's reign): Wakes the dragon in Dany, in that her allowing/requesting her brother's death marks the start of both her climb to power and her fall into madness.

There are only two people who keep talking about waking up dragons, and that's Mel and Dany. In order to understand what it means to wake a dragon from stone, we should look at what each one is trying to do. Mel is obsessed with her blood magic, but she is also trying to fulfill the AA prophesy for Stannis, and hopes that killing the father and then the son she'll be able to procure a literal dragon for Stannis. This is different from Dany, Viserys, and Ser Jorah - who talk about waking dragons as if it were a metaphor for a personality trait that also comes with some special abilities. When Viserys was "crowned" Dany took it as evidence he did not have this characteristic - that he was not the dragon. This suggests that the "dragon" exists, for Dany, as both a personality trait and ability - even as she has literal dragons. But unfortunately both Mel and Dany are missing key pieces of the puzzle. Mel doesn't understand that the dragon is not only about a literal dragon, but an individual with special skills or characteristics. More importantly, Mel doesn't quite grasp that the only people said to have ever been the dragon are Targaryans, and the only stones they tried to awaken were dragons' eggs. Dany correctly understands that being the dragon is a characteristic within her family, but she doesn't understand the process behind birthing a metaphorical dragon or all the nuances behind awakening even the literal dragons.

I would hazard a guess and say that, like the quoted poster suggested, two Kings have to be sacrificed in order for a dragon to be born or awakened. Viserys was never a sleeping dragon, let alone an awakened dragon, because two kings were not sacrificed in order to birth a dragon in him, nor were two kings sacrificed to awaken that dragon. Conversely, Rhaegar was a sleeping dragon because, when he was born, two kings were sacrificed for the purposes of birthing a dragon. While Melisandre is correct about the procedure for awaking or birthing dragons from stone, she's probably wrong to think sacrificing two kings at The Wall is going to awaken anything other than a Targaryan's inner dragon. Considering Jon Snow (if R+L=J) was born with two kings (IIRC the timeline) having recently died (Rhaegar + Aegon), it would probably be his sleeping dragon that Melisandre would awaken as there aren't any other people in Westeros that have an unawoken dragons within them. For instance, if (f)Aegon is real, than iAegon can't be the dragon because his own existence messes up the father + son sequence not just for Jon but for himself. The same problem exists for most other people with any Targaryan blood in them - that is, unless you happen to find a loophole like Dany did to the King + King sacrifice problem.

At the beginning of the series, Dany could not have been the dragon from birth because, when she was born, every other Targaryan was already dead except her brother. There was nobody to sacrifice to make her a metaphorical dragon by completing the King + King sequence. This problem was solved by Dany's actions (purposeful or not) in the funeral pyre. Rhaego was not just the stallion that mounts the world, he was also the last male Targaryan and, due to Westeros succession laws, would have briefly jumped his mother in the line of succession before he ultimately died. When Dany subsequently sacrificed herself alongside Drogo, she was unknowingly fullfilling the spirit of the prophesy because only now that every other male Targaryan was dead could she truly claim to be Queen of Westeros. Interestingly enough, Drogo still being semi-conscious after Rhaego died meant that, when Dany *became* Queen of Westeros, Drago became King Consort of Westeros, thus fulfilling the literal meaning of the prophesy as Melisandre understood it. This is a unique situation because women exist at the tail end of the succession laws and any male children would automatically leap them in the succession before, if they died childless, the crown devolved back to them.

Normally, all of this wouldn't matter because Dany would be dead from - ya know - sacrificing herself. But MMD being in the pyramid kept Dany alive. As we all know, only death can pay for life and since Dany and Drogo's lives were technically going towards the waking dragons prophesy, the only other life in that pyre that could pay for Dany's life was MMD. Dany gets to walk out the funeral pyre having literally awoken dragon from stones (King + King) and technically, since she was re-born in the fire, her own sacrifice allowed a metaphorical Targaryan-dragon to be born within her. Meanings that Dany and Jon are the only two dragons left to be awoken in the story [EDIT:] and that Dany is the only person to have awoken literal and metaphorical dragons

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The two kings to wake the dragons refers to the incident at Summerhall where I believe we will find that Aegon V dies first quickly followed by his son Duncan the small. On that day Rhaegar was born, Rhaegar being The Dragon. Upon Rhaegar's death, the mantle passed on to Daenaerys.

I was sort of with you up until that point.

Here's a question — do we HAVE to be dealing with a father and son pair, or will any two kings in succession do? Yes the wording is "first the father and then the son," but we're dealing with a father-son pair here; Mance and his kid. In that case, it had to be done in a father-son order because 1. that's what they had and 2. they had to go in that order so that both would die kings. But what if we had, say, a king and his brother who was next in line. Would their deaths work, because it's still two kings? Or two guys who were unrelated entirely, but still both kings? Is the father-son thing actually in the prophecy, or is it just tacked on by the speaker based on circumstances?

I ask because Jon was born at about the time of the Sack. Jaime killed Aerys (King #1) and afterward Gregor killed Aegon (King #2). Two kings to wake the dragon -> Aerys and Aegon's deaths closely, maybe even immediately, preceded Jon's birth.

And Drogo and Rhaego obviously don't work because 1. Rhaego preceded Drogo in death and 2. Rhaego wasn't a king.

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<snip>

And Drogo and Rhaego obviously don't work because 1. Rhaego preceded Drogo in death and 2. Rhaego wasn't a king.

I explained this a little above you, but I have a feeling you're gonna comment in my main post. But just in case, Rhaego died before Drogo, so their deaths don't work if you think we are talking about rulers in the Dothraki Sea as kings. But if Aegon is fake and Jon Snow is illegitimate, then Rhaego leapfrogged his mother and became King of Westeros because women can't inherit the throne, according to the First Dance of the Dragons, but they can pass their claims to male heirs. Rhaego was a King and then you can pair his death with Dany's sacrifice of herself or Drogo being her King Consort, something that would only happen after Rhaego died.

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On the subject of winterfells crypt, why do the most recent graves start at the top? The oldest would be at the top going down, unless they purposefully decided to start really deep down, and add some more on top.

Was this something in the show because I always see people thinking this despite the books make it perfectly clear the oldest are at the beginning and the newest towards the back.

“She is down at the end, with Father and Brandon.”

...

Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil lantern. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead,

Aside from Jon telling Bran a story about older deeper vaults.

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I explained this a little above you, but I have a feeling you're gonna comment in my main post. But just in case, Rhaego died before Drogo, so their deaths don't work if you think we are talking about rulers in the Dothraki Sea as kings. But if Aegon is fake and Jon Snow is illegitimate, then Rhaego leapfrogged his mother and became King of Westeros because women can't inherit the throne, according to the First Dance of the Dragons, but they can pass their claims to male heirs. Rhaego was a King and then you can pair his death with Dany's sacrifice of herself or Drogo being her King Consort, something that would only happen after Rhaego died.

Then it's a good thing Jon isn't illegitimate, innit?

In any case, the scenario I presented would've occurred well before Dany was even born, let alone when Rhaego and Drogo died. So that whole incident is beside the point, to me.

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