Two kings to wake a dragon

[The BlackBear]

Well the whole point of this forum is to speculate. GRRM says Dany and Jon are the 'main' characters, so it's fair to see if a prophesy fits Jon or Dany primarily. If it infuriates you so much why read it?

[Free Northman]

I came to this topic late, but I'm astounded no one has stated the obvious answer yet.

Stannis and Theon will be the two kings sacrificed in front of a Heart Tree to raise Jon (the Dragon) from death.

[The BlackBear]

Stannis and Theon will be the two kings sacrificed in front of a Heart Tree to raise Jon (the Dragon) from death.

I'm kind of hoping Theon has something more active to do to redeem himself than getting fed to a tree.

[Free Northman]

Theon is the Gollum of this story.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Because seriously, it doesn't matter what snippit of prophesy gets revealed, SOMEONE is going to think it's gotta be about Jon and how special and magical he is and how he's going to inherit the whole world, it's only right, right?

Okay, I'll take one for Team Jon . . .

If there's anything to be learned from the Dunk & Egg stories it's that it is wrong to be literal when it comes to prophecies concerning dragons. Mel, however, makes this mistake in spades; she thinks that if she literally follows a formula she can cook up a dragon. (Actually, I think Egg did the same thing, even though he surely should have known better, and that's what caused the tragedy at Summerhall.)

Anyway, I don't think "awaken the dragon" necessarily means the birth of a dragon or a Targ, I think it might means that a Targ will "awaken" when he becomes aware of his identity and acts on that knowledge. Dany certainly knows she's a dragon, and she obsesses about being one even if she can't get her ass in gear to conquer Westeros like one. Aegon certainly thinks he's a dragon, and he's actually bringing his act home. So the sleeping dragon must be one of those secret Targs and the best candidate for secret Targ-dom is, you got it, Jon! As far as I'm concerned as long as that damn raven keeps calling him "king" it doesn't matter whether Rhaegar and Lyanna actually got married or what Elia thought about the whole mess; destiny, fate, magic, GRRM, are going to make it all work.

As for kings, both trueborn and pretenders have been dropping like flies, so there's a variety to choose from. I pick Balon and Theon, kings by blood even if not acknowledged by the rest of Westeros, because the timing is, or will be, right for DeadJon to get a kick start from dead Greyjoy, not to mention the fact that those damn Greyjoys have to be good for something.

It's been hinted that a blood sacrifice to a weirwood tree gets the Northern mojo going. In the gift chapter Stannis is planning to execute Theon the Northern way, by killing him in front of a weirwood tree. If this indeed happens (and really, it's time for Theon to go) I think it will cause DeadJon to become an enlightened Revived Jon/TPTWP/AAR.

"What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger," is what those Ironborn say, so now they have the opportunity to prove it.

The stone part? A crypt at Winterfell (those damn dreams must mean something) or a stone cell at Castle Black. (And *semi-crackpot* I also expect that snow and the Others' freezing mist will stand in for salt (similarly white grainy stuff) and smoke (similar airborn particles) due to a misinterpretation of the vision by a prophet from the far south -- with thanks to the heresy threads.)

The stupid thing about prophecy, or maybe the thing that makes prophecies stupid, is that even though they purport to tell the future the only way to determine if and how they've been fulfilled is through hindsight. So no matter what happens, all will become clear in time -- I just hope it's sometime in the next 10 years. *rolls eyes*

[Summer is Ending]

Yeah I meant the deeper cryts, (that's why I said top ;)) I am aware that Lyanna's down the end.

Depends on what you believe than.

By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts. The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone.

...

The vault was cavernous, longer than Winterfell itself, and Jon had told him once that there were other levels underneath, vaults even deeper and darker where the older kings were buried.

I don't believe in eight thousand years of history and the oldest swords they see being rusted away to nothing but stains and the size of the vault makes me think Jon is just telling stories to his little brother and while there may be passages down there they're not stuffed with kings of winter.

As an aside I just realized it's pretty likely wives aren't buried in the crypts. Only those with Stark blood. Ned thinks to himself how he and his children will all be down there one day, nothing of Catelyn, and no mention of his own mother when down by his father and siblings.

[Free Northman]

Depends on what you believe than.

By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts. The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone.

...

The vault was cavernous, longer than Winterfell itself, and Jon had told him once that there were other levels underneath, vaults even deeper and darker where the older kings were buried.

I don't believe in eight thousand years of history and the oldest swords they see being rusted away to nothing but stains and the size of the vault makes me think Jon is just telling stories to his little brother and while there may be passages down there they're not stuffed with kings of winter.

As an aside I just realized it's pretty likely wives aren't buried in the crypts. Only those with Stark blood. Ned thinks to himself how he and his children will all be down there one day, nothing of Catelyn, and no mention of his own mother when down by his father and siblings.

Of course there are older crypts below, with the ancient Kings going back 8000 years. You just provided the quote for it yourself.

If you choose not to believe it, it is most certainly not because of textual evidence, but because of your own decision to in fact ignore the textual evidence.

There are many older levels below, the deeper you go, the older they get. The lowest ones have even collapsed.

In fact, Theon refers to it as well when taking Lady Dustin down to Brandon's tomb in Dance.

[Summer is Ending]

Of course there are older crypts below, with the ancient Kings going back 8000 years. You just provided the quote for it yourself.

If you choose not to believe it, it is most certainly not because of textual evidence, but because of your own decision to in fact ignore the textual evidence.

There are many older levels below, the deeper you go, the older they get. The lowest ones have even collapsed.

In fact, Theon refers to it as well when taking Lady Dustin down to Brandon's tomb in Dance.

Ok billy.

[The BlackBear]

As an aside I just realized it's pretty likely wives aren't buried in the crypts. Only those with Stark blood. Ned thinks to himself how he and his children will all be down there one day, nothing of Catelyn, and no mention of his own mother when down by his father and siblings.

I know right? It's mentioned that it's unusual that Lyanna was buried down there. She's the only woman mentioned.

[Free Northman]

Ok billy.

I have no idea what that even means.

I take it that it is some kind of sarcastic comment because you are unhappy that your mistake was pointed out.

Be that as it may. The text is quite clear that there are several older levels of the crypts below the top one, with the lower ones old enough to have collapsed.

Whether the exact date of the first stark was 8000, 7500, or 6872 years ago is unknown, but that there are much older Kings in the lower levels than King Jon Stark (who seems to be more or less the oldest one on the top level) is clear.

And Jon Stark himself lived between 3000 and 4000 years ago, when he established the Wolf's Den at the future site of White Harbor. This is supported by multiple sources of textual evidence.

[Summer is Ending]

I know right? It's mentioned that it's unusual that Lyanna was buried down there. She's the only woman mentioned.

What was unusual was that she was given a statue, only the lords have them.

His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father’s brother. They’re not supposed to have statues, that’s only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done.”

[The BlackBear]

And Jon Stark himself lived between 3000 and 4000 years ago, when he established the Wolf's Den at the future site of White Harbor. This is supported by multiple sources of textual evidence.

The crypts really must be huge, in a way that's quite hard to visualise actually. Taking the Targ king stats there were 17 kings in a 283 year period so 0.06... etc kings per year. x 3000/4000 years that's between 180 and 240 kings On one level. If we include all the close family, it's really quite hard to see how it can all fit.

[Free Northman]

There are multiple levels. And we are told in the text that the crypts extend well beyond the walls of Winterfell. And Winterfell covers multiple acres of land. In fact, just the godswood covers something like 3 acres, and that's only a part of the overall Winterfell complex. Which is exceeded by the underground crypts.

[The BlackBear]

Yes but I was basing it on you saying Jon Stark was the oldest king on the upper level and that he was around 3000-4000 years before the story begins. It would have been a hell of a job to create the crypts, not only are they a long way down ,but they'd have to be massive for each level, assuming that there are levels below the same size as the upper one, it just seems an incredible amount of work.

[Free Northman]

I would assume that the older levels are smaller and more primitive. Also, I would think that over the course of thousands of years they have just naturally sunk deeper, much like Roman ruins are below ground level today and they are only 2000 years old. The further back you go, the deeper you have to dig.

[Free Northman]

If they sink a centimetre a year they would be 80 metres down by now. That's about 240 feet.

[Sasha Steelsong]

On the subject of winterfells crypt, why do the most recent graves start at the top? The oldest would be at the top going down, unless they purposefully decided to start really deep down, and add some more on top.

Thank you! I've always wondered this myself. I get how for story purposes GRRM might want the ancient Starks burried and their secrets with them, but from a practical "how you build a tomb" POV, it always seemed strange.

[The BlackBear]

If it had sunk that far surely the castle would be underground my now.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Was this something in the show because I always see people thinking this despite the books make it perfectly clear the oldest are at the beginning and the newest towards the back.

“She is down at the end, with Father and Brandon.”

...

Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil lantern. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead,

Aside from Jon telling Bran a story about older deeper vaults.

Yes the are at the end but everyone who goes into the vaults notes that there are older tombs that have been cut off due to a collapsed stair or tunnel (can't remember off the top of my head), I got the impression it was only the last several hundred years of Starks that were in the level with Brandon, Rickard, and Lyanna. Thus it means that for whatever reason the ancient Starks started their crypt at the bottom instead of the top.

[The BlackBear]

Yes the are at the end but everyone who goes into the vaults notes that there are older tombs that have been cut off due to a collapsed stair or tunnel (can't remember off the top of my head), I got the impression it was only the last several hundred years of Starks that were in the level with Brandon, Rickard, and Lyanna. Thus it means that for whatever reason the ancient Starks started their crypt at the bottom instead of the top.

See Free Northmans comments it's at least 3000 years of kings/lords on that level.