Two kings to wake a dragon

[Sasha Steelsong]

See Free Northmans comments it's at least 3000 years of kings/lords on that level.

So how does that change anything? 500 or 3000 is still not 8000 and that leaves 5000 years of Starks burried beneath the currently used tier/level. The point still remains because Starks that are 4000, 5000, 6000, or 7000 years dead are somehow burried beneath those that came afterwards. Typically crypts start with the oldest and dug deeper as they need more room.

[Free Northman]

Yes the are at the end but everyone who goes into the vaults notes that there are older tombs that have been cut off due to a collapsed stair or tunnel (can't remember off the top of my head), I got the impression it was only the last several hundred years of Starks that were in the level with Brandon, Rickard, and Lyanna. Thus it means that for whatever reason the ancient Starks started their crypt at the bottom instead of the top.

Theon tells Lady Dustin in Dance that there are lower levels, and that the lowest one is partially collapsed. Meaning that there are mulitple lower levels that are accessible before you reach the lowest one which is collapsed.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Theon tells Lady Dustin in Dance that there are lower levels, and that the lowest one is partially collapsed. Meaning that there are lower ones that are mulitple lower levels that are accessible before you reach the lowest one which is collapsed.

No one is suggesting there aren't. All I'm saying is that it is not the normal way crypts are build to have the older levels at the bottom. The way the tier that Lyanna et al are burried on makes sense with the way crypts are designed (the older kings are first, the newest kings are last), but not the overall structure of the oldest bones being at the bottom.

[The BlackBear]

So how does that change anything? 500 or 3000 is still not 8000 and that leaves 5000 years of Starks burried beneath the currently used tier/level. The point still remains because Starks that are 4000, 5000, 6000, or 7000 years dead are somehow burried beneath those that came afterwards. Typically crypts start with the oldest and dug deeper as they need more room.

I know! I'm the one who managed to derail this thread! I was just pointing out that we know it was at least 3000 years.

[Free Northman]

So how does that change anything? 500 or 3000 is still not 8000 and that leaves 5000 years of Starks burried beneath the currently used tier/level. The point still remains because Starks that are 4000, 5000, 6000, or 7000 years dead are somehow burried beneath those that came afterwards. Typically crypts start with the oldest and dug deeper as they need more room.

Yes, the crypts get older as you go deeper. Either the Starks started by digging down deep, because Brandon the Builder - a greenseer - foresaw that there would be hundreds of generations of Starks to come, or because they started out just below the surface but the tombs gradually sank deeper underground as the millenia rolled by.

How deep underground are ancient Egyptian tombs today? And they're only 3000 years old or so.

[Summer is Ending]

Yes the are at the end but everyone who goes into the vaults notes that there are older tombs that have been cut off due to a collapsed stair or tunnel (can't remember off the top of my head), I got the impression it was only the last several hundred years of Starks that were in the level with Brandon, Rickard, and Lyanna. Thus it means that for whatever reason the ancient Starks started their crypt at the bottom instead of the top.

There's enough debate in books about timeline and history that it's best not to take eight thousands years as gospel.

People talk about there being more crypts down there and there are the collapsed stairs leading down but nobody has been down there or seen them that we know of. Might there there's something there. Might be it's just talk and empty caverns.

Swords rusting away until there's nothing but a stain on the stone in a cold and dry setting suggests those older Starks have been there for a while and while we know from Martin himself that Bran doesn't list the Starks in chronological order there are kings of winter there that he names as well as Ned thinking about them.

One thing always interesting is Bran actually recognizing lords in his vision from their stone statues, though of course we have no idea of timeline here other than the heart tree is getting smaller and smaller.

The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

[The BlackBear]

Yes, the crypts get older as you go deeper. Either the Starks started by digging down deep, because Brandon the Builder - a greenseer - foresaw that there would be hundreds of generations of Starks to come, or because they started out just below the surface but the tombs gradually sank deeper underground as the millenia rolled by.

If they sank so far, the castle would have had to been completely rebuilt at least once starting from the top of the old one, which would mess up their cool central heating system.

There being kings of winter there only shows that the crypt has been in use for 300 odd years.

[Free Northman]

There's enough debate in books about timeline and history that it's best not to take eight thousands years as gospel.

People talk about there being more crypts down there and there are the collapsed stairs leading down but nobody has been down there or seen them that we know of. Might there there's something there. Might be it's just talk and empty caverns.

Swords rusting away until there's nothing but a stain on the stone in a cold and dry setting suggests those older Starks have been there for a while and while we know from Martin himself that Bran doesn't list the Starks in chronological order there are kings of winter there that he names as well as Ned thinking about them.

One thing always interesting is Bran actually recognizing lords in his vision from their stone statues, though of course we have no idea of timeline here other than the heart tree is getting smaller and smaller.

The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

I have to say that you are grasping at straws here.

We have multiple direct sources stating that there are older kings below the top level. No one says that they haven't seen the lower levels. Theon only says that he hasn't seen the LOWEST level, which is the one that has collapsed. But he himself states that there are lower levels before you reach the lowest level.

The lower levels are there. And the older kings are there.

The fact that there is debate about when the Andals arrived in Westeros is irrelevant as far as the Kings of Winter are concerned, because they predate the Andals by millenia.

There is absolutely no evidence from the books to suggest that there are not multiple levels of older Kings below the level where Bran and Rickon hid from the Ironmen.

Lady Dustin herself notes the stairs going down further. The lower levels are there. Without a doubt. The fact that the Heresy 2000 threads debate all manner of alternative histories has no bearing on the undeniable textual evidence that there are MULTIPLE lower levels of Stark crypts, with older kings entombed below.

The top level goes back more or less to Jon Stark, who built the Wolf's Den at the future site of White Harbor. Kings that predate him lie in the deeper levels below.

[Golden&Crimson]

No one is suggesting there aren't. All I'm saying is that it is not the normal way crypts are build to have the older levels at the bottom. The way the tier that Lyanna et al are burried on makes sense with the way crypts are designed (the older kings are first, the newest kings are last), but not the overall structure of the oldest bones being at the bottom.

I remember, the first time i read about the crypts in Winterfell, the thing that make sense to me is that the crypts are of natural origin, with some human improvement, to turn the structure both strong and worthy of receiving the corpses of the dead Starks kings.

Much probably the crypts and the pond are linked by some subterranean stream, being the caves that are the origin of the crypt of volcanic origin, making possible the existence of a hot stream of water, even during the winter, that forms the pond near the weirwood.

More one of the symbolic opositions between Starks and Boltons?

Starks with crypts were their honoured dead repose; Boltons with the dungeons were they torture people and keep their skins.

Starks with a pond of hot water; Boltons with some volcanic shafts.

[jarl the climber]

Out of curiosity, how does this work out in real ancient tombs and catacombs and what not? Wouldn't the newer tombs be further down after the first level got filled up?

[Free Northman]

If they sank so far, the castle would have had to been completely rebuilt at least once starting from the top of the old one, which would mess up their cool central heating system.

There being kings of winter there only shows that the crypt has been in use for 300 odd years.

Do you honestly think that a castle that has been around for 8000 years has not been rebuilt scores of times over that period? Show me any millenia old building in continuous use that has not been rebuilt from the ground up many times over.

In any case, I think subsidence (sinking of the tombs) are only part of the deal. I think they just started out deep and moved higher from there, due to magical foresight.

[Free Northman]

I remember, the first time i read about the crypts in Winterfell, the thing that make sense to me is that the crypts are of natural origin, with some human improvement, to turn the structure both strong and worthy of receiving the corpses of the dead Starks kings.

Much probably the crypts and the pond are linked by some subterranean stream, being the caves that are the origin of the crypt of volcanic origin, making possible the existence of a hot stream of water, even during the winter, that forms the pond near the weirwood.

More one of the symbolic opositions between Starks and Boltons?

Starks with crypts were their honoured dead repose; Boltons with the dungeons were they torture people and keep their skins.

Starks with a pond of hot water; Boltons with some volcanic shafts.

The Boltons also have crypts below the Dreadfort. Roose refers to them in Dance. For all we know, they also go back 8000 years.

[The BlackBear]

Well the godswood is described as being untouched for thousands of years, so there hasn't been too much subsidence there. The oldest building in the castle is the old keep and tower. There's no indication that it has been rebuilt, and as the building is sinking, you get to a point where you now have no front door. There's no indication of continual stacking of keep on keep as they sink more and more. I think it more likely that in Martinsworld the ground is constant and doesn't go anywhere, and that the crypts are at exactly the same depth as they always were.

[jarl the climber]

Do you honestly think that a castle that has been around for 8000 years has not been rebuilt scores of times over that period? Show me any millenia old building in continuous use that has not been rebuilt from the ground up many times over.

In any case, I think subsidence (sinking of the tombs) are only part of the deal. I think they just started out deep and moved higher from there, due to magical foresight.

Hasn't the Parthenon in Rome been standing for 2,000 years and the pyramids of Eygypt for about 5,000 years or so. Off the top of my head. Oh yeah the colesseum of Rome.

[Golden&Crimson]

The Boltons also have crypts below the Dreadfort. Roose refers to them in Dance. For all we know, they also go back 8000 years.

I didn`t remember that, thank you for pointing that Northman.

... But i prefer the crypts of Winterfell to the ones of the Dreadfort!

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Maybe some guy 8,000 years ago didn't think the House would continue on that long and built a giant ass crypt and started filling them in at the back, and now they are running out of space. Whatever will they do? Start a construction project and move stuff around.

What great facts are we trying to determine from the fact that the recent Starks are on the first level?

[Summer is Ending]

I remember, the first time i read about the crypts in Winterfell, the thing that make sense to me is that the crypts are of natural origin, with some human improvement, to turn the structure both strong and worthy of receiving the corpses of the dead Starks kings.

Much probably the crypts and the pond are linked by some subterranean stream, being the caves that are the origin of the crypt of volcanic origin, making possible the existence of a hot stream of water, even during the winter, that forms the pond near the weirwood.

More one of the symbolic opositions between Starks and Boltons?

Starks with crypts were their honoured dead repose; Boltons with the dungeons were they torture people and keep their skins.

Starks with a pond of hot water; Boltons with some volcanic shafts.

Winterfell has its own dungeons.

“Somewhere beneath us are the crypts where the old Stark kings sit in darkness. My men have not been able to find the way down into them. They have been through all the undercrofts and cellars, even the dungeons, but …”

“The crypts cannot be accessed from the dungeons, my lady.”

[Free Northman]

Hasn't the Parthenon in Rome been standing for 2,000 years and the pyramids of Eygypt for about 5,000 years or so. Off the top of my head. Oh yeah the colesseum of Rome.

Why do archeaological discoveries get older the further down you dig below the surface, then?

In any case, I am happy to assume that no sinking occurs in Martin world, for some reason. In that case, the tombs just started out deep and they built newer levels above them in later years. Magical foresight, as I said. The fact remains, the older Kings are on the lower levels as per the text.

[jarl the climber]

Why do archeaological discoveries get older the further down you dig below the surface, then?

In any case, I am happy to assume that no sinking occurs in Martin world, for some reason. In that case, the tombs just started out deep and they built newer levels above them in later years. Magical foresight, as I said. The fact remains, the older Kings are on the lower levels as per the text.

The thing is that there do not seem to be any earthquakes in his world either as far as I know. I agree with what your saying but there do seem to be a few structures that have managed to keep standing for thousands of years but they seem to be exceptions. In a way the pyramids do not count, they are just large blocks set on top of each other. Its not a dwelling for people to live or work in.

[Summer is Ending]

Well the godswood is described as being untouched for thousands of years, so there hasn't been too much subsidence there. The oldest building in the castle is the old keep and tower. There's no indication that it has been rebuilt, and as the building is sinking, you get to a point where you now have no front door. There's no indication of continual stacking of keep on keep as they sink more and more. I think it more likely that in Martinsworld the ground is constant and doesn't go anywhere, and that the crypts are at exactly the same depth as they always were.

He has the castle of Moat Cailin sinking but then you have the excuse of it's boggy ground so.

Just beyond, through the mists, she glimpsed the walls and towers of Moat Cailin … or what remained of them. Immense blocks of black basalt, each as large as a crofter’s cottage, lay scattered and tumbled like a child’s wooden blocks, half-sunk in the soft boggy soil. Nothing else remained of a curtain wall that had once stood as high as Winterfell’s. The wooden keep was gone entirely, rotted away a thousand years past, with not so much as a timber to mark where it had stood.