Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

mcb

Two kings to wake a dragon

Recommended Posts

Then it's a good thing Jon isn't illegitimate, innit?

In any case, the scenario I presented would've occurred well before Dany was even born, let alone when Rhaego and Drogo died. So that whole incident is beside the point, to me.

Just to be clear, are you basing your "Jon isn't illegitimate" snarkiness on a theoretical wedding between Rhaegar and Lyanna or on Robb's recently confirmed will. If its the former then I'll just walk away slowly, cause the evidence for that seems suspect to me so there'd be no point continuing. If its the latter, I'd love to hear your take since I personally think the most important thing Robb did as King was legitimate Jon Snow because that not only put him back in the running for King in the North, it also put him back in the running for Targaryan Pretender. That's the only confirmed change we've had in the Targaryan succession, so my theory would still stand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to be clear, are you basing your "Jon isn't illegitimate" snarkiness on a theoretical wedding between Rhaegar and Lyanna or on Robb's recently confirmed will. If its the former then I'll just walk away slowly, cause the evidence for that seems suspect to me so there'd be no point continuing. If its the latter, I'd love to hear your take since I personally think the most important thing Robb did as King was legitimate Jon Snow because that not only put him back in the running for King in the North, it also put him back in the running for Targaryan Pretender. That's the only confirmed change we've had in the Targaryan succession, so my theory would still stand.

It's based on Rhaegar and Lyanna being married, for which there is quite a bit of circumstantial and thematic evidence. If you don't want to continue, it's no loss on me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was sort of with you up until that point.

Here's a question β€” do we HAVE to be dealing with a father and son pair, or will any two kings in succession do? Yes the wording is "first the father and then the son," but we're dealing with a father-son pair here; Mance and his kid. In that case, it had to be done in a father-son order because 1. that's what they had and 2. they had to go in that order so that both would die kings. But what if we had, say, a king and his brother who was next in line. Would their deaths work, because it's still two kings? Or two guys who were unrelated entirely, but still both kings? Is the father-son thing actually in the prophecy, or is it just tacked on by the speaker based on circumstances?

I ask because Jon was born at about the time of the Sack. Jaime killed Aerys (King #1) and afterward Gregor killed Aegon (King #2). Two kings to wake the dragon -> Aerys and Aegon's deaths closely, maybe even immediately, preceded Jon's birth.

And Drogo and Rhaego obviously don't work because 1. Rhaego preceded Drogo in death and 2. Rhaego wasn't a king.

I said that the mantle passed from Rhaegar to Dany because I believe Rhaegar's belief that the Dragon has three heads means that "The Dragon" will exist through three persons: Rhaegar 1st, Dany 2d, and ? (future child of Dany perhaps?) third. But going back to the initial prophecy, couldn't Dany also be born after the death of two kings, Aerys and then Aegon? I'm not sure of the timeline but Aerys had already sent Rhaella to Dragonstone before the sack of King's landing. As for Jon, my impression was that he was born after the sack since, Ned had already left King's landing in disgust with the killing of Aegon and only later came upon the tower of joy around the time Jon was born.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I said that the mantle passed from Rhaegar to Dany because I believe Rhaegar's belief that the Dragon has three heads means that "The Dragon" will exist through three persons: Rhaegar 1st, Dany 2d, and ? (future child of Dany perhaps?) third. But going back to the initial prophecy, couldn't Dany also be born after the death of two kings, Aerys and then Aegon? I'm not sure of the timeline but Aerys had already sent Rhaella to Dragonstone before the sack of King's landing. As for Jon, my impression was that he was born after the sack since, Ned had already left King's landing in disgust with the killing of Aegon and only later came upon the tower of joy around the time Jon was born.

Jon was born right about the time of the Sack. Dany wasn't born until nine months after.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jon was born right about the time of the Sack. Dany wasn't born until nine months after.

You're right about Dany, she was probably born roughly eight months after the sack, but I think you're wrong about Jon. I get the impression that Ned came upon the tower of joy only 1) after the sack of king's landing where he left in disgust, then 2) he goes to Storm's End to lift the siege, and then 3) gathers his men and finds the Tower of Joy, I'm not sure of the exact timeline, but it would have had to be a decent amount of time after the sack of King's landing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're right about Dany, she was probably born roughly eight months after the sack, but I think you're wrong about Jon. I get the impression that Ned came upon the tower of joy only 1) after the sack of king's landing where he left in disgust, then 2) he goes to Storm's End to lift the siege, and then 3) gathers his men and finds the Tower of Joy, I'm not sure of the exact timeline, but it would have had to be a decent amount of time after the sack of King's landing.

GRRM has, I believe, said that the window for Jon's birth is roughly at the time of the Sack, up to one month after. Even at the higher end of the window, it's still much closer to Aerys and Aegon's deaths than Dany's birth was. You can't say that a month after (and it could easily have been less than a month; a month is the absolute max) is too long, and then turn around and say that 8-9 months isn't too long.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GRRM has, I believe, said that the window for Jon's birth is roughly at the time of the Sack, up to one month after. Even at the higher end of the window, it's still much closer to Aerys and Aegon's deaths than Dany's birth was. You can't say that a month after (and it could easily have been less than a month; a month is the absolute max) is too long, and then turn around and say that 8-9 months isn't too long.

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the subject of winterfells crypt, why do the most recent graves start at the top? The oldest would be at the top going down, unless they purposefully decided to start really deep down, and add some more on top.

and what's within Lyanna's crypt? or her statue?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only two who died in proximity to one another were Rickard and Brandon, Drogo and Rhaego

Perhaps the removal of the iron swords on Rickon and Brandon's tomb will "wake the dragon"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or it's just Melisandre doing what she does best, weaving her most powerful power: trying to and succeding to have the King (and some of his knights) ear.

She wants king's blood to wake dragons from stone since, well, probably since shet first step foot on Dragonstone, and well, Stannis just smash one, and even get ahold of said king son. "First the Father, then the son, and I defintely wake a dragon from stone (I hope they don't ask me where are those dragon eggs). Look! I'm juggling with fireballs. I do it again, take a better look. And just for you Ser Patrek, I change the fire's color as we speak. Good boy."

She's a very good spin doctor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Horrifying thought but what if Rhaegar and Aegon were at the ToJ both dieing to "wake" Jon the dragon

Hope not but it is a possibility

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could it be Aerys and Viserys? They did die in the right order,and Viserys was "crowned King"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could it be Aerys and Viserys? They did die in the right order,and Viserys was "crowned King"

Actually I don't think they did die in the right order. Even if you completely discount Jon, it still looks like Aerys died before Aegon β€” Aegon would have been king, however briefly, in between Aerys and Viserys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to be clear, are you basing your "Jon isn't illegitimate" snarkiness on a theoretical wedding between Rhaegar and Lyanna or on Robb's recently confirmed will. If its the former then I'll just walk away slowly, cause the evidence for that seems suspect to me so there'd be no point continuing. If its the latter, I'd love to hear your take since I personally think the most important thing Robb did as King was legitimate Jon Snow because that not only put him back in the running for King in the North, it also put him back in the running for Targaryan Pretender. That's the only confirmed change we've had in the Targaryan succession, so my theory would still stand.

Do you seriously think Jon would pretend to be a Targayen King? I say absolutely no way!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you seriously think Jon would pretend to be a Targayen King? I say absolutely no way!

I don't think he'll pretend to be a Targaryan King - I'm saying he's not technically in the line of succession from the Northern perspective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was this something in the show because I always see people thinking this despite the books make it perfectly clear the oldest are at the beginning and the newest towards the back.

β€œShe is down at the end, with Father and Brandon.”

...

Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil lantern. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead,

Aside from Jon telling Bran a story about older deeper vaults.

Yeah I meant the deeper cryts, (that's why I said top ;)) I am aware that Lyanna's down the end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hi, been lurking for a while but had to ask coz this line has been bugging me too: could it be Roose and Ramsay? a mance and little aemon battleborn thing in oldtown conducted by fat sam could be one but Roose has weird plans too I think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hi, been lurking for a while but had to ask coz this line has been bugging me too: could it be Roose and Ramsay? a mance and little aemon battleborn thing in oldtown conducted by fat sam could be one but Roose has weird plans too I think?

Sorry I'm not really sure what the second sentence says.

Either way Roose is only as royal as he proclaims himself, and he won't dare to do that until he has the North firmly under control. Which would involve Stannis and Jon gone. It's possible certainly but it seems a bit of a cop out, the Targs as kings have been kings for 300 years and have the 'blood of the dragon' (much as I hate Targaryan superiority, it's at least symbolically relevant here) Most of the other kings have a degree of heritage (we aren't sure how much blood plays, but it's still symbolically relevant) Bolton lost their attempts at kingship thousands of years before. Grenn could announce himself king, and even if he got a few people to agree with him, I doubt burning him would cause Dragons to awake.

Sorry if that makes no sense I tend to ramble. BUT WELCOME TO THE FORUM! :cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we just agree that EVERY prophesy is referring to Jon, and he's going to come back from the dead with white hair and the ghosts of Rheagar and Lyanna will broadcast to the entier world that they married in secret but Elia was totally ok with it because she's dornish so she's into threesomes and then Elia's ghost will admit it's true (don't knock it till you've tried it) but anyway it's time for everybody to make Jon SnowStarkTargaryan the king of the whole world and he'll have a bunch of magic magic flaming sword and marry Dany and get her dragons as a wedding gift (she'd keep drogon tho because he's her favoritist) and she'll die anyway in the battle because she's stupid.

Because seriously, it doesn't matter what snippit of prophesy gets revealed, SOMEONE is going to think it's gotta be about Jon and how special and magical he is and how he's going to inherit the whole world, it's only right, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×