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Sitian Zhang

Ice = Lightbringer?

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First of all, let me say I don't really think Lightbringer is an actual sword. But let's say, for argument's sake, that it is. There's no evidence in the text that it must be reforged. Look at what Melisandre herself says to Davos in ACoK:

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

So, it seems there are three possibilities to explain the difference in the story as presented by our Asshai'i source, Melisandre, and our Westerosi/Free Cities sources (Colloquo Votar and Salladhor Saan):

  • Melisandre doesn't know the version that includes the forging. This seems unlikely, as she's a priestess of this religion and knowing this lore is a vital part of her job.
  • Melisandre (and perhaps the temples of Asshai) considers the forging story non-canon. This looks to be a stronger possibility. Like the history of Christianity, the evolution of the Red Priests and their faith may be marked by set of stories once used, but later discarded, as a canon of belief and literature came together.
  • Melisandre considers the forging only important in the context of the first appearance of Azor Ahai. If Lightbringer exists, it need not be recreated for the rebirth of Azor Ahai. It's present in her version of the mythos, but already extant.

The second and third seem like the most likely possibilities, with the middle one being most intriguing to me. It would go hand in hand with a possible schism along the lines of AA candidates.

I don't know that I agree with Martini's point about hindsight since Lightbringer is one of the key signs of Azor Ahai's rebirth and a token of his office. It seems to play a key role in identifying him and enabling him to do his job. The story's creators were probably banking on it being something easily recognizable.

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I'm in the Dawn = Lightbringer camp, but I like this theory too. I'm of the opinion that we were (unknowingly) introduced to Lightbriner in book 1. Ice fits that bill along with some other things like dragons, NW,etc.

I've also considered this crackpottery, briefly - Dawn pale as milkglass, Ice dark and smouldering, Lightbringer the red sword of heroes. White, black and red are the symbolic colours of alchemy, red representing the fire of transformation. Lightbringer may need forging as per first time around, as well as tempering through the heart of a Nissa Nissa figure. What if Lightbringer was seperated into Ice and Dawn, the Valyrian steel and mereorite metal seperating in the smelter, one given to the Starks in the north and one to the Daynes in the south in some sort of symbolic gesture, meaning Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail and Dawn will have to be reforged into one sword. Albeit, one pretty big sword I suppose.

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I don't know that I agree with Martini's point about hindsight sinceLightbringer is one of the key signs of Azor Ahai's rebirth and a token of his office. It seems to play a key role in identifying him and enabling him to do his job. The story's creators were probably banking on it being something easily recognizable.

That's what I mean though — Azor Ahai, Lightbringer, whatever, will only be evident after it's already all said and done. Anyone can fit the signs — and several people do, that's why there's such disagreement over who this sucker is. But it's only after doing what Azor Ahai is supposed to, whatever that is, that the person's identity will truly be evident. If the story has shown anything, it's that fitting the signs alone isn't worth anything until you "seal the deal."

ETA: As for Dawn, I actually like the (crackpot?) idea that it's actually the weapon of an Other, brought back from the Battle for the Dawn by a Dayne.

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I like this theory a lot. GRR Martin has said we well explore farther North in the last two books. I think Jaime and Brienne will travel to the wall to deliver lightbringer to Jon. On the way to the wall they hear news that Bran and Rckon are alive. They get sidetracked somehow and end up beyond the wall. I can see Jaime's story ending coming full circle with him saving Bran from where he currently is and re-storing the proper heir to Winterfell.

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I like this theory a lot. GRR Martin has said we well explore farther North in the last two books. I think Jaime and Brienne will travel to the wall to deliver lightbringer to Jon. On the way to the wall they hear news that Bran and Rckon are alive. They get sidetracked somehow and end up beyond the wall. I can see Jaime's story ending coming full circle with him saving Bran from where he currently is and re-storing the proper heir to Winterfell.

This relies on way too much convenience and logic-jumping for me to believe it could ever happen. For one thing, they'd have to know beforehand that what they had was Lightbringer, and/or have a reason to take the sword to Jon (who might still be, you know, incapacitated). It involves trekking through a literal blizzard-y war zone. It requires them to somehow get out of the UnCat predicament. And I also don't see how simple "sidetracking" can get you on the opposite side of a 700-foot-tall ice wall.

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Supposedly its over 400 years old according to the wiki, dont know where that number came from though. I would like if the sword had to become Lightbringer and the man had to become AA

Cat says this in her first chapter as she approaches ned in the god's wood. She also says its named after a 'legacy' from the age of heroes. I take this to mean that it is not the original ice. 500 years ago is when we first hear that longclaw was first in the mormont family though. I think this is also about when they acquired bear island from the starks. Then a 100 years later the starks end up with a new sword. I've dug around trying to find evidence that perhaps longclaw originally belonged to the starks as well but I cant find any so it's still crackpot =(

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Do you have any thoughts regarding the significance of having ice reforged into two new swords?

Widowswail is a much smaller sword. Perhaps symbolic, that could be wielded by a teenage girl who thinks she's a warlord.

Whereas oathkeeper is legit, and could be wielded by someone who actually uses swords i.e Jon.

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your a fan of the Nights Watch being Lightbringer?

Edit:Butterbumbs kindly showed me my error

Would be interesting if Ice was Lightbringer and Jaime "activates its power" (turns it into Lightbringer?) by stabbing Brienne, whom he loves, through the heart with it. Just like AA stabbed his love through the heart to forge Lightbringer originally. Would be interesting if Jaime was AAR. I could see a scene going down where Jaime and Brienne are forced to fight by Lady Stoneheart in WoW and this is when it could happen.

I'm in the Dawn = Lightbringer camp, but I like this theory too. I'm of the opinion that we were (unknowingly) introduced to Lightbriner in book 1. Ice fits that bill along with some other things like dragons, NW,etc.

I've also considered this crackpottery, briefly - Dawn pale as milkglass, Ice dark and smouldering, Lightbringer the red sword of heroes. White, black and red are the symbolic colours of alchemy, red representing the fire of transformation. Lightbringer may need forging as per first time around, as well as tempering through the heart of a Nissa Nissa figure. What if Lightbringer was seperated into Ice and Dawn, the Valyrian steel and mereorite metal seperating in the smelter, one given to the Starks in the north and one to the Daynes in the south in some sort of symbolic gesture, meaning Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail and Dawn will have to be reforged into one sword. Albeit, one pretty big sword I suppose.

Im confused. Sometimes Dawn seems a good bet to be the physical sword if a physical sword is needed. I dont think it's gong to be a Valyrian steel sword because I doubt the Valyrian Freehold existed 5000 years ago. Dawn was forged from a fallen star long ago and has that pale glow OP referred to in the first quote. I also dont think Jaime is AA or would quench to sword in Lady Stoneheart. The forging required sacrifice which either means Brienne who he loves or Cersei who he thinks he loves. Cersei is interesting because it ties into the prophecy that she dies by her little brother tho not by a sword.

I also like the theories that Lightbringer is a metaphor. That it's the NW whose oath claims "they are the light that brings the dawn" That lightbringer is Dany's dragons and that dragonfire is the red sword of heroes.

What has to be considered is that all myths r metaphors. That a great deed grows in the telling over the years. Parts r forgotten while other parts grow in proportion. It is likely that Azor Ahai has undergone similar changes. Perhaps he wasnt a single man, which seems unlikely considering how tough the Others r, but an army of heroes who after great personal sacrifice, throw back the Others and reclaim the land. Personally, Ill be stunned if Azor Ahia turns out to be only one character when the story's richness is based on it's large cast of heroes, most on journeys that r forging them for the endless night.

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^^^

Yeah, I suppose I'm firmly in the Dawn camp really. Ice's valyrian steel feels a bit new to me. I'm sticking to my AA/NN/L = JS/DT/D belief.

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I beleave lightbeinger is NW, but could it also refer to all Valyrian weapons? Perhaps an order that formed, or an agreement from all the high lords. That would why the houses have them. Perhaps they were all formed from the One.

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I think that the swords could eventually be reforged into one to symbolize the reunion of the surviving Starks, sure. But as for it having significance of the Lightbringer variety, that I do not believe.

ETA: Though I do not believe that Lightbringer is a literal sword, if it is, it will only be apparent in hindsight. Lightbringer doesn't "exist" in its intended form at this moment. Lightbringer would be whatever sword the Azor Ahai figure wielded.

I was thinking and I hate this thought because she's my favorite, what if the blood sacrifice is Sansa, either by her own will or whom ever holds the sword if it is an actual sword (since I'm on the fence for either NW or ICE ) Ned sacraficed Lady, what if Sansa sacrificed herself for the realm or family?

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I was thinking and I hate this thought because she's my favorite, what if the blood sacrifice is Sansa, either by her own will or whom ever holds the sword if it is an actual sword (since I'm on the fence for either NW or ICE ) Ned sacraficed Lady, what if Sansa sacrificed herself for the realm or family?

Boo, Boo, BOO!!!!

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I think oathkeeper will become lightbringer after Jaime stab Lady stoneheart with it (Ned Starks steel through the heart of his wife). Thoros will recocnize Lightbringer and travel with Jaime north to bring AA the sword, could work with Widow's Wail too

But can someone else do what AA supposed to do? Also why UnCat be Jaime's Nissa Nissa. Yes it's Ned's sword but it's not Ned.

At the end of the day I prefer Dawn as the Lightbringer too.

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But can someone else do what AA supposed to do? Also why UnCat be Jaime's Nissa Nissa. Yes it's Ned's sword but it's not Ned.

At the end of the day I prefer Dawn as the Lightbringer too.

I'm not sure we need another Nissa Nissa. That story was about forging the sword and then quenching it. If Lightbringer is already in existence, there would seem to be no need to plunge it into anyone's chest.

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I'm not sure we need another Nissa Nissa. That story was about forging the sword and then quenching it. If Lightbringer is already in existence, there would seem to be no need to plunge it into anyone's chest.

But Nissa's sacrifice made the sword so powerful, maybe now it has lost his powers so another sacrifice is required.

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But Nissa's sacrifice made the sword so powerful, maybe now it has lost his powers so another sacrifice is required.

I think that's possible, but I think we'd also need to see it done in a setting where people where aware they were doing either forging or magic. Without the ritual surrounding it and without awareness of what's going on, it's just murder. I do think there's a chance that it, if this kind of thing is necessary, it could happen accidentally.

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I think that's possible, but I think we'd also need to see it done in a setting where people where aware they were doing either forging or magic. Without the ritual surrounding it and without awareness of what's going on, it's just murder. I do think there's a chance that it, if this kind of thing is necessary, it could happen accidentally.

Yeah, exactly. We were talking about yesterday. I meant to check again a few things before replying but got caught up in Olympic fever and didn't get around to it yet. But even before checking, I think it would be very difficult to pull off a 'Melisandre has never heard the story of Nissa Nissa etc' - still, I have nothing to corroborate this.

Forgot to say, completely agree, if Lighbringer is an actual sword it won't need to be reforged.

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Boo, Boo, BOO!!!!

You booing me or the mention of Sansa being sacrificed?

I want my girl to make it all the way (along with her sibs).

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Widowswail is a much smaller sword. Perhaps symbolic, that could be wielded by a teenage girl who thinks she's a warlord.

Whereas oathkeeper is legit, and could be wielded by someone who actually uses swords i.e Jon.

Thanks. I like this alot. Because I don't like what my guts been telling me for a long time:

I've been kicking around the idea that Ice could be Lightbringer since my first reading of the series. Whether it is or not, the fact that it was reforged into two swords, after it was used to kill (sacrifice?) Eddard seems very significant to me. There were tears (salt) ,Arya, Sansa, and if I recall Eds. And smoke in the reforging.

When first reading the description of the new swords, how they reflected red and black light, I immediately thought about Dany and her dragon.

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