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Sitian Zhang

Ice = Lightbringer?

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You booing me or the mention of Sansa being sacrificed?

I want my girl to make it all the way (along with her sibs).

I didn't Boo you, I boo the possibility that Sansa sacrifice herself, what a waste. I forced myself through her POVs in the irst book with all the nonsense and bearing her story in book two to saw her becoming an interesting character with potential, and then she should die for some stupid sacrifice, please no!

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Yeah, exactly. We were talking about yesterday. I meant to check again a few things before replying but got caught up in Olympic fever and didn't get around to it yet. But even before checking, I think it would be very difficult to pull off a 'Melisandre has never heard the story of Nissa Nissa etc' - still, I have nothing to corroborate this.

I'm really curious about Melisandre's silence on the tale of the forging of Lightbringer. Her treatment of Lightbringer as an accessory seems to imply it's much less important to Azor Ahai's identity and role than the tale we hear from Salladhor. I agree with you that she seems unlikely to be completely ignorant of it, which leads me to believe she's heard it, but she doesn't think it's an integral part of the story.

I started to mention this earlier, and the more I think about it, the more the parallel holds up. Before there was any agreed-upon "official" version of the story, there were probably many tales being told about Azor Ahai. At some point, somebody would've had to decide which were true, which belonged in the canon, and which were folk tales.

The story of Lightbringer's forging seems like it might fall into the last group, since the details are not necessary for the overarching story of Azor Ahai to make sense. It does play the role of illuminating Azor Ahai's character for us by illustrating the tremendous effort that went into the creation of the weapon and his willingness to sacrifice everything to triumph in the war. It seems a bit like the Infancy Gospel of Thomas or some of the other early Christian manuscripts that were popular among groups of believers, but did not make it into the canon in the end.

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I don't think we need to take the forging of Lightbringer quite so literally - the whole point (or AA's story, and of the blood sacrifice storyline for Dany in book 1) is the tremendous personal cost that wielding such power can have, and that triumph can be bittersweet: the hero must be willing to sacrifice everything he/she holds dear to triumph against foes. I don't think we'll literally be seeing any male characters plunge a sword into their female beloved for the purposes of forging the ultimate sword.

Quite frankly, I am tired of the whole "beautiful ladies dying tragically as a prop for male hero's development" thing, though I agree that if any female character would be willing to do something like this, it'd be Brienne sacrificing her life for Jaime's (she was already about to do it at the end of AFFC, and agreed to betray him, IMHO, because she felt responsible towards Pod and Hyle, and guilty for having failed Catelyn).

I do believe that Ice is significant, as is Jaime's dream, and that this theory is on the right track, but I think there's a twist or two ahead we are just not seeing yet.

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I'm really curious about Melisandre's silence on the tale of the forging of Lightbringer. Her treatment of Lightbringer as an accessory seems to imply it's much less important to Azor Ahai's identity and role than the tale we hear from Salladhor. I agree with you that she seems unlikely to be completely ignorant of it, which leads me to believe she's heard it, but she doesn't think it's an integral part of the story.

I started to mention this earlier, and the more I think about it, the more the parallel holds up. Before there was any agreed-upon "official" version of the story, there were probably many tales being told about Azor Ahai. At some point, somebody would've had to decide which were true, which belonged in the canon, and which were folk tales.

The story of Lightbringer's forging seems like it might fall into the last group, since the details are not necessary for the overarching story of Azor Ahai to make sense. It does play the role of illuminating Azor Ahai's character for us by illustrating the tremendous effort that went into the creation of the weapon and his willingness to sacrifice everything to triumph in the war. It seems a bit like the Infancy Gospel of Thomas or some of the other early Christian manuscripts that were popular among groups of believers, but not make it into the canon in the end.

Yes, excellent points. I've been thinking... There's an excellent reason for Mel to deliberately omit any reference to Nissa Nissa and the forging of Lightbringer as we 'know' it. Stannis' role as AAR could come into question if people start to doubt the legitimacy of this Lightbringer she gives him.

And the thing is, it doesn't even matter whether the tale about the forging of Lightbringer via Nissa Nissa's heart is legit, all it takes is for Mel herself to think it is.

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I didn't Boo you, I boo the possibility that Sansa sacrifice herself, what a waste. I forced myself through her POVs in the irst book with all the nonsense and bearing her story in book two to saw her becoming an interesting character with potential, and then she should die for some stupid sacrifice, please no!

I didn't Boo you, I boo the possibility that Sansa sacrifice herself, what a waste. I forced myself through her POVs in the irst book with all the nonsense and bearing her story in book two to saw her becoming an interesting character with potential, and then she should die for some stupid sacrifice, please no!

This is what I thought.

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I think oathkeeper will become lightbringer after Jaime stab Lady stoneheart with it (Ned Starks steel through the heart of his wife). Thoros will recocnize Lightbringer and travel with Jaime north to bring AA the sword, could work with Widow's Wail too

It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

When exactly was the Long Night supposed to have taken place?

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Some hundreds of years. The more exact number was in Game of Thrones.

Sorry I don't understand this post?

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You're not the only one. Ice is RED, something noone seems to have mentioned in these posts. Someone in one of these posts said since Jaime has the new sword made from Ice, he would have to temper it by killing a woman he loved more than anything. Not Lady Stoneheart. Cersai! Cersai has been told that she would be killed by her valenquar (little brother in High Valarian). Jamie is her little brother and he has developed a love hate relationship with Cersai. I'm not wedded to the idea that Jaime is Azor Ahai reborn, but Jaime is going through a rethinking of his life and its meaning. Attempting to return Sansa is his "last chance" to prove his honor, Jaime says himself after he reads his page in the White Book and sees that he has done very little that has had a positive significance.

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Ugh. After my last full series re-read I became fairly convinced that Ice is Lightbringer. "The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke." Smoke. Why does it have to be smoke?

I'm also pretty convinced that Jaime is AAR and Brienne is his Nissa Nissa. I think that there will need to be a literal blood sacrifice. And I'm pretty convinced the sacrifice needs to be willing, as Nissa Nissa bared her own breast to the blade.

Random reasons I believe this:

--Brienne would sacrifice her life for Jaime

--An argument could be made for Jaime's re-birth at the loss of his hand, the stump was seared

--Jaime notices more than once how warm Brienne is, apropos of nothing

--Ice has been split in twain and Jaime has access to both swords.

--Oathkeeper is red and gold

--The Lightbringer legend contains a lion

--Jaime, sleeping against a weirwood, dreams of he and Brienne wielding flaming swords, and Brienne's is the one that doesn't go out...all as dead people are attacking them

--Brienne and Jaime are currently set up for a situation where she would willingly let him kill her

I don't want this to be true. Because I would hate to see Brienne reduced to being a sacrifice. And I've read every theory about Jon Snow (hopefully) and Dany (don't think so) and everyone else being AAR, and the Lightbringer theories. The TPTWP must be a Targ, or so it's interpreted, but that could possibly be explained by no one realizing the Targs would be out of power. I just can't shake this combo of facts added together. So much of it is specifically stated and added together, it's eerie.

I hope it's Jon.

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I'm sat between Lightbringer being Ice or NW.

I don't want it to be NW, but due to the subtlety of it, it is far less likely to be a red herring than the real swords, giving that theory a lot of credibility.

If Ice is lightbringer, I suspect it could be a new Lightbringer, rather than the original. There is some stuff about Ice that hasn't been mentioned yet:

Ice is the frozen form of water. (tempered with water)

After being broken, the new swords are red and covered in lion symbology. (tempered with lion's blood)

One of the new swords is called Widow's Wail (death of spouse = Nissa Nissa)

The other sword is call Oathkeeper and Brienne is probably tied to an oath to kill Jaime (whom she loves).

When Tobho Mott reforged Ice into the two new swords, he said the spells he used didn't quite work as he expected. This implies that there is a dormant magical element to the sword beyond being simple Valyrian Steel (which Tobho Mott knew how to work).

Also, Gendry used to work for Tobho Mott. It certainly seems possible that he could re-forge the sword (or part of it again), to bring it into its final form.

I fully suspect that if Jaime found out about Brienne's oath, he would insist that she kills him, to ensure she doesn't become an oath breaker like he did... This would make Jaime Nissa Nissa, and Brienne AAR... Although I'm fond of the idea that AA and The Seven are one and the same, and AAR will actually encompass multiple characters.

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Ice represents the spirit of Ned - just, human, good, a man who despite his father and brother being killed by a Targ held no negativity for Dany. I think it follows the series: he had it (the Starks were whole), it was taken by his rivals and divided (war and chaos), part of it was given to a kindred spirit Brienne who has helped Jamie to grow up (hope for the future) but the sword needs to be reforged (reconciled) with the other part to be whole again (stability after war).


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