Frey Pie Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 This thread is inspired by a number of others which directly dealt with a number of battle commanders including Ned Stark, Stannis Baratheon etc. There are a host of options. I will go into detail in my second post if people want details they can look there. My personal list isStannisNedRobertRobbThen second tierTywinRandyllJaimeIts all up for dispute though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 Ned Stark-commander of the Northerners in two wars and never lost a battle. Won the Battle of the Bells, is respected and Robert has been quoted as saying Ned won the Kingdom for him i believe. Not much first hand info but from inferrences from Bournes thread seems exceedingly competent.Tywin-defeated the Reynes and Tarbecks, won at the Green Fork and the BW. Out-manouvered by Robb Stark. Took no part in Roberts RebellionStannis-held SE, took DS, defeated the Ironborn at sea, took Great Wyk, lost at the BW but retreated in good enough order under terrible conditions, beat the Wildlings at the Wall and retook Deepwood Motte. Has shown flexibility of commandRobb-the Young Wolf. Never lost a battle. Together with the BF surprised Jaime Lannister and later his host in what is IMO the greatest tactical move in the books. Destroyed two Lannister hosts which outnumbered him largely and took many castles in the West.Robert-Took the throne from the Targs. Only beaten once, by Randyll Tarly.Won three battles in one day, the Trident and later subdued the Greyjoys. Excellent and charismatic warrior but unknown tactical skillsRandyll Tarly-Called the finest soldier in Westeros. Beat Robert in his only ever defeat and also defeat the Northerners at Duskendale with considerable losses.Tyrion Lannister-held KL until relief came.Loras Tyrell-key part in BW and later took DSJaime Lannister-defeated two Tully armies but was destroyed by Robb Stark. Lately shows more caution and skill, taking two castles without losing a single man.Jon Connington-defeated at Battle of the Bells but took Griffins Roost and SE.Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully-leaders in the rebellion. Unknown talentMance Rayder-successfully united the wildlings but failed to take the WallJon Snow-shows a talent for command. Defended the Wall successfully twiceVictarion Greyjoy-beaten by Stannis at Fair Isle. Torched the Lannister Fleet and helped take the Shield IslandsDaenaerys Targaryen-takes Slavers Bay, defeating the Astapori and Meereenese.Roose-loses at the Green Fork and constantly from there on. Takes HH by guile. Unknown motives for GF. May be more talentedRamsey-defeats Ser Rodrik, takes Moat CailinBlackfish-Robbs foremost commander. Unknown contribution but won fame at War of NinepennyRhaegar-lost at the Trident. Unknown talentThink thats it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I agree with your list for the most part.Regarding Tywin, If we had more info on what happened during the reynes/tarbecks we could move him up or down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Here is my list from the old thread.The Generals of Westeros: Ratings.The Very Good (in no particular order);Robb StarkStannis BaratheonTywin LannisterRandyll TarlyRobert BaratheonThe Good (these two are sort of in order)Ned StarkJon SnowThe Bad (otherwise known as the OK, again, no particular order);Jaime LannisterJonConEdmure Tully (maybe this guy should be in the Ugly, I don't know)Roose BoltonThe UglySer Stafford LannisterMace Tyrell (I can't imagine he is any good)The Inscrutable (or, we don't have enough info to rank them)Rhaegar Targ (lost his only battle, but this may not have been through any error of generalship, the Trident was decided in a single combat)Hoster TullyJon ArrynVic the Thick (lost his only battle we hear of, but, you know, it was to Stannis so who knows?)Ramsay Snow (probably shit, but he did surprise Rodrick outside WF, so he needs to get some credit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewingedwolf Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 1. Ned Stark Won the Battle of the Bells.At the Trident, Robert may have killed Rhaegar (and thats not small feat) but it is Ned who gave the order to attack before Rhaegar's forces could deploy accross the Trident. Then there is the quote from Barristan Selmy "I've seen you cut down a dozen great knights" (referring again to the Trident). To me Robert won the duel but Ned won the battle.Succesfully led the assault on Pike during the Greyjoy rebellion.All through Robert's Rebllion, he moved his troops with stunning efficiency and marched the Northern host faster than anyone expected.2. Robb StarkNever lost a battleTook Jamie Lannister by surprise at the Whispering WoodDestroyed the Lannisters at the OxcrossBest use of cavalry I've seen3. Tyrion LannisterGot the chain through the Blackwater BaySent his hillstribes to kill Stannis's scouts and pillage his linesHeld KL against a much larger forceGreat cyvasse player (ok that one is a joke)4. Robert BaratheonWon 3 battles in one dayKilled Rhaegar and took the iron throneCharismatic, hands on, inspires loyalty and respectLost to Randyl Tarly5. Tywin LannisterGreat at making alliances and making other people fight his battlesTactical skills unknown6. Stannis BaratheonTough, resilient and disciplinedLacks creativity and adaptivenessHas no charisma, does not insipre loyalty the way his brother did.7. Randyl TarlyCalled the best soldier in Westeros but very little is known about him8. Jon SnowVery promising futureQuick thinkingGood sue of resources available even in a bad situation"The Wall is yours Jon Snow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewingedwolf Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Rhaegar Targ (lost his only battle, but this may not have been through any error of generalship, the Trident was decided in a single combat)I disagree with you on that, the battle of the Trident to me was won by the rebels in three different instances (not in any particular order):1. The duel between Robert and Rhaegar2. Lewis Corbray picking up his dead father's sword and breaking the Martell forces that were threatening Robert's left3. Ned Stark waiting until Rhaegar's forces had begin deploying on the trident before attacking, hence catching them while they were crossing the water.The duel definitely sealed the deal but even had Rhaegar been able to escape, the battle was lost anyways IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 1. Ned StarkWon the Battle of the Bells.At the Trident, Robert may have killed Rhaegar (and thats not small feat) but it is Ned who gave the order to attack before Rhaegar's forces could deploy accross the Trident. Then there is the quote from Barristan Selmy "I've seen you cut down a dozen great knights" (referring again to the Trident). To me Robert won the duel but Ned won the battle.What the flying fuck!!!!Quote or reference please?Look, I don't want to start flinging accusations around but your post gives rise to a distinct suspicion, on my part, that there is some shit being made up here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I disagree with you on that, the battle of the Trident to me was won by the rebels in three different instances (not in any particular order):1. The duel between Robert and Rhaegar2. Lewis Corbray picking up his dead father's sword and breaking the Martell forces that were threatening Robert's left3. Ned Stark waiting until Rhaegar's forces had begin deploying on the trident before attacking, hence catching them while they were crossing the water.The duel definitely sealed the deal but even had Rhaegar been able to escape, the battle was lost anyways IMHOWhere and when is this ever mentioned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewingedwolf Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 What the flying fuck!!!!Quote or reference please?Look, I don't want to start flinging accusations around but your post gives rise to a distinct suspicion, on my part, that there is some shit being made up here.Actually this statement comes from a combined effort by many people on this forum (and elsewhere) to piece together the Battle of the Trident. Of course we cannot be 100% sure of what happened but if you look at the accounts being presented of the battle, it is a very likely outcome based on how the battle took place. I am looking the find the references for you including a map of how the forces were positioned that suggests this. When I find it, I will post it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Actually this statement comes from a combined effort by many people on this forum (and elsewhere) to piece together the Battle of the Trident. Of course we cannot be 100% sure of what happened but if you look at the accounts being presented of the battle, it is a very likely outcome based on how the battle took place. I am looking the find the references for you including a map of how the forces were positioned that suggests this. When I find it, I will post it.Based on what. There is hardly any information on the course of the battle.If there is a thread where the battle is pieced together, could you link to it?But basically yeah, I regard this as made up. Its never said Ned ordered any such manoeuvre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artos Stark Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 My list might be a little biased towards Ned but until it's proven otherwise I'm going with him as #1 since Robert credits Ned for winning him the throne1) Ned2) Robb3) Robert4) Jon Arryn5) Tywin6) Stannis7) Tarly8) Barristan9) Jon Con10) Jon Snow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBloodraven Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Here is my list from the old thread.The Generals of Westeros: Ratings.The Very Good (in no particular order);Robb StarkStannis BaratheonTywin LannisterRandyll TarlyRobert BaratheonThe Good (these two are sort of in order)Ned StarkJon SnowThe Bad (otherwise known as the OK, again, no particular order);Jaime LannisterJonConEdmure Tully (maybe this guy should be in the Ugly, I don't know)Roose BoltonThe UglySer Stafford LannisterMace Tyrell (I can't imagine he is any good)The Inscrutable (or, we don't have enough info to rank them)Rhaegar Targ (lost his only battle, but this may not have been through any error of generalship, the Trident was decided in a single combat)Hoster TullyJon ArrynVic the Thick (lost his only battle we hear of, but, you know, it was to Stannis so who knows?)Ramsay Snow (probably shit, but he did surprise Rodrick outside WF, so he needs to get some credit)Pretty much agree with this list though I wouldn't put Tywin among the very good. Good would do well for him since he has not shown any outstanding capabilities. Jon Connington among the good also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 1. Ned Stark Then there is the quote from Barristan Selmy "I've seen you cut down a dozen great knights" (referring again to the Trident). To me Robert won the duel but Ned won the battle.I'm pretty sure this is only said in the show. So its worthless as evidence. Succesfully led the assault on Pike during the Greyjoy rebellion.Um, Robert was the general here, seeing as he was the KING.All through Robert's Rebllion, he moved his troops with stunning efficiency and marched the Northern host faster than anyone expected.Nope, Robert is the one who gets praise for his forced marches not Ned. Ned did move quickly on KL after the Trident though, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 3. Ned Stark waiting until Rhaegar's forces had begin deploying on the trident before attacking, hence catching them while they were crossing the water.HOLY SHIT< did I miss something, if this is true amazing, if not meh. But were does this come from? SSM?ninjad by bran, question answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Pretty much agree with this list though I wouldn't put Tywin among the very good. Good would do well for him since he has not shown any outstanding capabilities. Jon Connington among the good also.If I moved Tywin down I think Tarly ought to go down too seeing we don't know much about Ashford and I can't remember it being portrayed as decisive.I think Tywin is on a level with Stannis really. After his defeat at Blackwater Stannis' only significant victory is the battle at the wall (Deepwood Motte doesn't really count). So, like Tywin, for Stannis we rely on his reputation and details of his previous achievements, SE and Fair Isle.Tywin does destroy two powerful bannermen at a time when the lannister's are laughed at by their vassals. Presumably Tywin at least took, in some way, two well defended castles, and maybe won an engagement in the field. I think it probable he couldn't rely on the full muster of the westerlands given the war with the Reynes and Tarbecks was about re-asserting lannister authority over their vassals. I think these are reasonable inferences. So that's nearly as good as, say, Fair Isle or SE there.JonCon thinks Tywin's trademark brutal measures would have ensured him success at Stony Sept. This bears out Kevan's judgement that Tywin would have been the most competent leader to command Aerys' forces in the war.Tywin is also responsible for Jaime's success against Edmure as its his strategy to force the Tully's to disperse by raiding.At the GF I don't see Tywin did anything too wrong. Granted, Robb foxed him. However, Tywin doesn't appear to have had bad outriders. Marbrand is respected and Tywin does know where the Stark army is, and isn't surprised when Bolton tries his surprise attack. The highly competent Blackfish was screening Robb's movements and managed to stop Tywin's outriders noticing the split in the Stark army. Marbrand was in contact with the Stark host when it was coming down the causeway and Tywin was still at the fords of GF (GoT). So his military intelligence is pretty good (unlike Jaime's). His judgments about Robb and the Freys were all pretty reasonable imo. Robb is green about a lot of things, Frey was unlikely to commit and Robb was afraid to face Tywin's army (which was why Tywin started advancing). Tywin is praised for his caution and is said to be difficult to take by surprise.Also the GF was still a reasonable enough battle, circa 20,000 lannisters, with around 4,000 horse vs circa 15,000 Stark infantry. That's not a foregone conclusion by any means.Was also likely c-in-c at Blackwater.So I put him in very good because his reputation and achievements are close to those of Stannis. For JonCon I wasn't taking the Arianne gift chapter into account because I'm not factoring in tWoW yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 Id really love to know where the Ned thing came from. If its purely speculation ill be slightly disapointed because id love to have a few more details on the defining moment of Roberts Rebellion.Bran if more were known about the Reynes and Tarbecks and Ashford then i might also push Tywin and Tarly up as wel.Tywin has great people under him in Marbrand and Kevan. I am still slightly mystified as to why Tywin didnt send part of his cavalry to run down the routed Northern army. Perhaps he didnt feel the need but more enemies killed or captured today is less to face tomorrowIf i missed out on anyone who should make the list of generals point it out and ill through them up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Id really love to know where the Ned thing came from. If its purely speculation ill be slightly disapointed because id love to have a few more details on the defining moment of Roberts Rebellion.It's pure speculation, if that.Bran if more were known about the Reynes and Tarbecks and Ashford then i might also push Tywin and Tarly up as wel.I think you could say the same about Fair Isle and SE. Tywin has great people under him in Marbrand and Kevan. I am still slightly mystified as to why Tywin didnt send part of his cavalry to run down the routed Northern army. Perhaps he didnt feel the need but more enemies killed or captured today is less to face tomorrowIf i missed out on anyone who should make the list of generals point it out and ill through them up!!I dunno either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 It's pure speculation, if that.I think you could say the same about Fair Isle and SE.I dunno either.The thing about the Reynes and Tarbecks is they seem to have rebelled at the same time as far as i know but not to have worked together. If they had pooled their resources they would be formidable indeed, like the Boltons and Manderlys rebelling in the North.I think Fair Isle is special because the Ironborn live for the sea and their ships. They seem to be to naval warfare what the Unsullied are to an infantry formation, or Dothraki to light cavalry. Like the two examples though they do lack brains Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Aerys the Just Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I believe Ramsay is a lot better than people give him credit for. Of course he is a completely horrible person and all, but his victory at Winterfell was very impressive.Ramsay: 600 menStark loyalists: 3000+ menResult: the Stark forces are completely obliterated (The other northmen think Ironmen did it, meaning that the numbers of survivors from the battle must have been very low), Ramsay loses like a dozen men. Those are utterly amazing statistics. Even though Ramsay had the element of surprise, managing to completely slaughter an army five times the size of yours with so small losses is some serious shit. He then goes on to take Winterfell in a similar way, barely having to fight.Of course he has relied alot on treachery and ugly tricks, but it's not like the other great generals used to fight farily either, so that shouldn't discount him from the competition. Robb Stark's victories at the Whispering Woods and Oxcross were won by ambushes on completely unsuspecting enemies, and Tyrion won at the Blackwater because he loaded some merchant ships up with magic napalm and blew up both fleets. Dany crushed the Yunkai because she bribed their sellswords to switch sides, and then let her army attack at night while the Yunkai thought they were still negotiating terms.I obviously dont think Ramsay is one of the greatest generals in the world or anything, but he acually seems to be pretty dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bourne Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Can someone please show me the quote where Robert said "Ned won me the throne." I'd like to see it in context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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