Ned's fatal flaw revisited

[The Fallen]

` King's Landing being dangerous doesn't mean there's a boogie man waiting around the corner. Your argument is silly. You don't like Ned, we get it. It's alright, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Blackfish Tully]

One thing that I can't help but thinking , is how in the hell did Jon Arryn and King Robert allow things to get so bad in Kings Landing? Ned walks into a no win situation because those two had totally screwed up royally.

They should have made Jamie Lannister take the black or at least strip him of his white cloak and send him to Casterly Rock. Kings Landing was overrun with Lannisters, Varys should have been executed and no way should a man like Janos Slynt be in charge of the Gold Cloaks. If Jon Arryn and King Robert had done a better job of handling the realms business Ned would not have been put in such a bad position.

[Elder Sister]

*sigh* I have already explained that. If Ned was so completely worried about his kids that he made immediate preparations for them to leave KL, then he should have slapped guards on their doors and said: "The kids stay in here, they do not go out for anything or anyone." Surely he had some guards on the doors anyway?! Perfectly easy to give the guards orders that the kids stay safe inside - if it was too dangerous to be in KL at all, then surely it was too dangerous for his daughters to be wandering alone anywhere around the palace. Basic common sense. As far as I can see, looking at things quite objectively from what Ned actually knew, and what he as Hand should have known about the Lannisters generally, there were red warning lights flashing and he was too brain-dead to see them or take any notice.

In your opinion.

[Khal Jhaqo]

His fatal flaw was saying yes to Robert Baratheon.

He got mired in the game without realizing he was playing.

Him trusting little finger was one of the biggest.

He should have stayed home and sharpened Ice by the weirwood, preparing for winter.

[Currawong]

` King's Landing being dangerous doesn't mean there's a boogie man waiting around the corner. Your argument is silly. You don't like Ned, we get it. It's alright, there's nothing wrong with that.

My argument is not silly - it is perfectly logical given the situation in KL. Putting up an argument that you do not like does not make it 'silly'.

It is not a matter of whether I like Ned or not. That is irrelevant. I am happy to admire Ned for being honorable and wanting to do the best for everyone. I also like Ned for being a good father to his kids, and being a good husband to Cat for the most part. (I don't like him for not telling her the truth about Jon, but that is quite a separate issue). However, the OP was about Ned's "fatal flaw" - and in this case, I think his 'honor' was both his greatest strength and also his greatest flaw when it was combined with 1. His naivety in terms of character assessments generally; and 2. His unwillingness/ inability to play the game of thrones in general.

Why did Robert want Ned as his Hand in the first place? I'd suggest it was because Robert valued Ned for their longstanding friendship, for his obvious honor, and for Ned's willingness to speak out, even to Robert. Unfortunately, Robert occasionally didn't like it when Ned did try to tell him a few home truths! Ned disliked complicated politics and his personal sense of honor led him to try and stay apart from the game of thrones, and made him uncomfortable in that whole environment. I do not dislike Ned at all for wanting to stay apart from all the scheming: it is admirable to try to remain honorable and tread a path through all the politics.

However, whilst Ned was admirable in his 'honor', he was also rather naive about things, and I would also argue that he wasn't a good judge of character. Certainly, he completely misjudged Cersei, and I think he also misjudged Sansa. Perhaps he just didn't realise that his daughter was growing up so fast, and thus underestimated what it meant for a 'stars in her eyes' girl her age to find herself betrothed to a prince, and then suddenly find that her father is going to smash that dream by taking her away.

I can understand that he was extremely busy as Hand, but I think his naivete/ failure in character assessment led him to make several key mistakes, and it was fatal when combined with his sense of honor. First, he should have had a long hard talk to both his daughters after the incident with Lady. That surely showed him just how things stood with the Lannisters, and I think he was naive in not telling both girls about the real dangers they all faced in KL, and especially making sure that Sansa understood. Yes, it's normal for a father to wish to protect his children from the harsh realities of life for as long as possible, but in this case, Ned grossly underestimated the whole situation,and misjudged his daughters.

Second, he completely underestimated Cersei and her lust for power, and that was an even bigger mistake. Yes, dear lovable Ned was completely honorable in wanting to give Cersei a chance to protect her own children, but he was totally naive and stupid in the whole way he approached it. He not only didn't want to play the game of thrones, he wasn't very good at it when he tried to do so. Simply 'making arrangements' for Sansa and Arys to leave KL next morning is just not good enough when you are dealing with someone like Cersei! Even if you don't give a damn for your own life, you don't tell a person like Cersei anything at all until you have fully protected those you love and who might be in danger once you speak out.

Alas, his two mistakes combined with tragic consequences. If Ned had posted guards with 'no-one in or out' orders, then his failure to talk properly to Sansa and Arya probably would not have mattered. But Sansa was still stars-in-the-eyes in love with her prince, and just didn't understand that all their lives were in danger. And Ned had grossly underestimated how quickly Cersei would act against him.

Honor was Ned's greatest strength, but he was naive and sometimes stupid in the way he tried to 'honorably' navigate the murky waters in KL. Alas, honor + niavete + stupidity / blindness = disaster for Ned and his girls.

[Elder Sister]

My argument is not silly - it is perfectly logical given the situation in KL. Putting up an argument that you do not like does not make it 'silly'.

It is not a matter of whether I like Ned or not. That is irrelevant. I am happy to admire Ned for being honorable and wanting to do the best for everyone. I also like Ned for being a good father to his kids, and being a good husband to Cat for the most part. (I don't like him for not telling her the truth about Jon, but that is quite a separate issue). However, the OP was about Ned's "fatal flaw" - and in this case, I think his 'honor' was both his greatest strength and also his greatest flaw when it was combined with 1. His naivety in terms of character assessments generally; and 2. His unwillingness/ inability to play the game of thrones in general.

Why did Robert want Ned as his Hand in the first place? I'd suggest it was because Robert valued Ned for their longstanding friendship, for his obvious honor, and for Ned's willingness to speak out, even to Robert. Unfortunately, Robert occasionally didn't like it when Ned did try to tell him a few home truths! Ned disliked complicated politics and his personal sense of honor led him to try and stay apart from the game of thrones, and made him uncomfortable in that whole environment. I do not dislike Ned at all for wanting to stay apart from all the scheming: it is admirable to try to remain honorable and tread a path through all the politics.

However, whilst Ned was admirable in his 'honor', he was also rather naive about things, and I would also argue that he wasn't a good judge of character. Certainly, he completely misjudged Cersei, and I think he also misjudged Sansa. Perhaps he just didn't realise that his daughter was growing up so fast, and thus underestimated what it meant for a 'stars in her eyes' girl her age to find herself betrothed to a prince, and then suddenly find that her father is going to smash that dream by taking her away.

I can understand that he was extremely busy as Hand, but I think his naivete/ failure in character assessment led him to make several key mistakes, and it was fatal when combined with his sense of honor. First, he should have had a long hard talk to both his daughters after the incident with Lady. That surely showed him just how things stood with the Lannisters, and I think he was naive in not telling both girls about the real dangers they all faced in KL, and especially making sure that Sansa understood. Yes, it's normal for a father to wish to protect his children from the harsh realities of life for as long as possible, but in this case, Ned grossly underestimated the whole situation,and misjudged his daughters.

Second, he completely underestimated Cersei and her lust for power, and that was an even bigger mistake. Yes, dear lovable Ned was completely honorable in wanting to give Cersei a chance to protect her own children, but he was totally naive and stupid in the whole way he approached it. Simply 'making arrangements' for Sansa and Arys to leave KL next morning is just not good enough when you are dealing with someone like Cersei! Even if you don't give a damn for your own life, you don't tell a person like Cersei anything at all until you have fully protected those you love and who might be in danger once you speak out.

Alas, his two mistakes combined with tragic consequences. If Ned had posted guards with 'no-one in or out' orders, then his failure to talk properly to Sansa and Arya probably would not have mattered. But Sansa was still stars-in-the-eyes in love with her prince, and just didn't understand that all their lives were in danger. And Ned had grossly underestimated how quickly Cersei would act against him.

Frankly, I think Ned was stupid to bring the girls to KL in the first place, but having done so, he should at least have sent them straight back to Winterfell at the first hint of trouble.

Your argument is valid only if Ned knew all that we know as readers. And of course, he didn't.

He was not naive to tell Cersei what he knew. He simply did not want to be responsible for the deaths of innocent children.

And why would he tell two young girls of the political dangers that he faced? That's ridiculous.

[Elder Sister]

My argument is not silly - it is perfectly logical given the situation in KL. Putting up an argument that you do not like does not make it 'silly'.

It is not a matter of whether I like Ned or not. That is irrelevant. I am happy to admire Ned for being honorable and wanting to do the best for everyone. I also like Ned for being a good father to his kids, and being a good husband to Cat for the most part. (I don't like him for not telling her the truth about Jon, but that is quite a separate issue). However, the OP was about Ned's "fatal flaw" - and in this case, I think his 'honor' was both his greatest strength and also his greatest flaw when it was combined with 1. His naivety in terms of character assessments generally; and 2. His unwillingness/ inability to play the game of thrones in general.

Why did Robert want Ned as his Hand in the first place? I'd suggest it was because Robert valued Ned for their longstanding friendship, for his obvious honor, and for Ned's willingness to speak out, even to Robert. Unfortunately, Robert occasionally didn't like it when Ned did try to tell him a few home truths! Ned disliked complicated politics and his personal sense of honor led him to try and stay apart from the game of thrones, and made him uncomfortable in that whole environment. I do not dislike Ned at all for wanting to stay apart from all the scheming: it is admirable to try to remain honorable and tread a path through all the politics.

However, whilst Ned was admirable in his 'honor', he was also rather naive about things, and I would also argue that he wasn't a good judge of character. Certainly, he completely misjudged Cersei, and I think he also misjudged Sansa. Perhaps he just didn't realise that his daughter was growing up so fast, and thus underestimated what it meant for a 'stars in her eyes' girl her age to find herself betrothed to a prince, and then suddenly find that her father is going to smash that dream by taking her away.

I can understand that he was extremely busy as Hand, but I think his naivete/ failure in character assessment led him to make several key mistakes, and it was fatal when combined with his sense of honor. First, he should have had a long hard talk to both his daughters after the incident with Lady. That surely showed him just how things stood with the Lannisters, and I think he was naive in not telling both girls about the real dangers they all faced in KL, and especially making sure that Sansa understood. Yes, it's normal for a father to wish to protect his children from the harsh realities of life for as long as possible, but in this case, Ned grossly underestimated the whole situation,and misjudged his daughters.

Second, he completely underestimated Cersei and her lust for power, and that was an even bigger mistake. Yes, dear lovable Ned was completely honorable in wanting to give Cersei a chance to protect her own children, but he was totally naive and stupid in the whole way he approached it. Simply 'making arrangements' for Sansa and Arys to leave KL next morning is just not good enough when you are dealing with someone like Cersei! Even if you don't give a damn for your own life, you don't tell a person like Cersei anything at all until you have fully protected those you love and who might be in danger once you speak out.

Alas, his two mistakes combined with tragic consequences. If Ned had posted guards with 'no-one in or out' orders, then his failure to talk properly to Sansa and Arya probably would not have mattered. But Sansa was still stars-in-the-eyes in love with her prince, and just didn't understand that all their lives were in danger. And Ned had grossly underestimated how quickly Cersei would act against him.

Frankly, I think Ned was stupid to bring the girls to KL in the first place, but having done so, he should at least have sent them straight back to Winterfell at the first hint of trouble.

I do agree with you, though, that he should have sent the girls back to Winterfell sooner than he attempted.

[Currawong]

Your argument is valid only if Ned knew all that we know as readers. And of course, he didn't.

He was not naive to tell Cersei what he knew. He simply did not want to be responsible for the deaths of innocent children.

And why would he tell two young girls of the political dangers that he faced? That's ridiculous.

Did Ned know that the situation in KL was dangerous? Did he know that he was navigating increasingly murky waters? Answer: Yes to both. It wasn't a matter of Ned not knowing what readers know, it was a matter of Ned being awake and alert to the whole situation around him. If he didn't 'get' that KL was rapidly becoming very dangerous, and certainly far too dangerous for his girls, then he really was 'brain-dead Ned'.

You still miss the point about telling Cersei. I'm not blaming Ned at all for being honorable and not wanting to be responsible for the deaths of her innocent children. I am saying that he was naive to tell Cersei when he did i.e. before he got his own kids safely away from KL.

And it would not have been ridiculous to tell his daughters about some of the political dangers he faced. I am not suggesting that he go into all the gory details, just that leaving them ignorant exposed them to dangers because they simply didn't understand how much they needed to be careful. Ignorance is not bliss, it can be dangerous. Any parent knows the concept of 'age appropriate' explanations. The Stark girls were from a totally different environment at Winterfell, and they were woefully under-prepared for the court at KL. Ned should certainly have warned Sansa and started to make her more aware of the dangers, especially after the Lady incident. Put it this way: if Sansa was old enough to come to KL and get betrothed to Joffrey, then she was old enough to be given a reasonable briefing about things generally, including the 'keep your mouth shut around the Lannisters' idea.

[Elder Sister]

@Currawong:

I understand the argument you're making, but it's only valid based on hindsight. Playing the 'what if' game, and being unaware of how everything was going to transpire, and looking at what Ned had done up to the point that he tells Cersei what he knows, it seems that Ned has been cautious and extremely scrupulous in his planning.

There was no way for him to know that the King would die, that Janos Slynt would be so duplicitous, or that Littlefinger would be so treacherous.

This is my last post on this topic. You are extremely set on your argument about Ned and how 'stupid' he was, and that is absolutely your right as a reader.

I've enjoyed the discussion - thanks for a lively debate! :)