Why do people believe the North will continue to try for independance?

[The BlackBear]

I've been seeing on a number of threads references to the Northmen continuing to try for independance. But I've seen no evidence for this. I think they'll certainly end up supporting Stannis.

However they lost a massive amount of men in the South, when they didn't really have that many to begin with. Those that remain aren't loyal to the 'good' Northerners. Winter is either well on it's way, or already come (the epic blizzard Stannis seems to be building a castle out of.

So whilst they know that they might be able to help another claiment to the throne, who will help them oust the Boltons, and potentially return little Rickon. They surely know that they're in no position to instigate another war with the other kingdoms, and if they did they'd have to sacrifice the Riverlands.

What do you think?

Do they really have enough men in reserve?

[SerStinger]

I agree that they will end up supporting Stannis. Rickon will be the liege lord and Stannis the king. That was the deal between Manderly and Davos IIRC.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

They do not want to be subjects to a crown of the Lannisters who have betrayed them, so they were trying to become independent. If Stannis helps the Northmen out, it's highly possible that they will swear fealty to him. That becomes even more possible when Stannis makes Rickon Lord of Winterfell/the North. Assuming Stannis is alive of course and Rickon returns with Davos.

[Rheagar Prime]

i never understood either whoever gets the throne (assuming there is a throne left after the battle with the others) why would they want an independent realm when the targs done came and changed the game. Everyone would want unity and if the north want to avoid war they better back someone who they like or something.

[scurvy]

If Stannis rids them of Roose and frees their Lords and heirs from the Freys there is no doubt that Rickon and his Lord Protector (mayhaps Manderley or Umber) will bend the knee to Stannis.

I'm not sure Manderley will be Lord Protector and Warden of the North because the Northerners may not trust him, despite his family's long term ties to the North. The Greatjon would also have a strong claim to be Warden of the North and Lord Protector once freed. All of the other Northern Lords would respect him and his uncles, yes BOTH uncles, are serving Stannis right now. I think Whoresbane and Crowsfood are both killing Freys inside Winterfell with Crowsfood being the Hooded Man of Winterfell. He's the only one to positively call Theon a kinslayer other than the Hooded Man. Stannis will owe the Umbers a lot.

[valyrian_steel]

What remains of the North will come to Stannis after he destroys the Boltons. Rickon will be Warden of the North and it wouldnt surprise me if he ends up married to Wylla Manderly. Some of the lost strength of the North gets augmented by the Wildlings.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

They'll swear fealty to Stannis if he reinstalls the Starks as liege lords or to Dany if she defeats the Others or not at all.

[Naathi Prince]

I wouldn't be surprised by a renewed northern independence movement because I think the Northerners have really gotten the short end of the stick with the Iron Throne and they know it. Their kingdom is the largest and one of the more powerful, but there aren't any northern kingsguard and rarely any northern council members. The Arryns, Westerlings, Hightowers, and Martells all married into the Targ family, but there aren't any Starks. Meanwhile the North still has to save the night's watch's ass when they fail.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Yeah, I agree. They are are wary of taking risks now. Stannis is there, he saved the Wall, is fighting the Boltons, is a respected commander with small tolerance for BS, and he has support of the Iron Bank.

[Budj]

I think it is a strong possibility they align cause with Stannis, but they may not....and there is no guarantee that Stannis lives.

[Naathi Prince]

and yea they only stay a part of the Realm if

1. Stannis is King

2. Dragons

[Kaukolainen]

I don't think that the Northmen will really vouch for Stannis before his chances improve a lot. This includes taking out Boltons and Freymen from the North as well as the Iron Bank support actually materializing. I suppose they might follow him up till the Twins for an epic revenge but unless Tyrell-Lannister alliance has begun to wane, they're not going to sacrifice any more men for another doomed pretender. But I don't think they would bend the knee for any other king in the Iron Throne than Stannis (Assuming he got their allegiance earlier) or someone from the North. There's just too much the Southerners have done. And besides, their latest independence was ended only through betrayal, so there's nothing to say they couldn't actually pull it off.

[Third World King]

I believe the North needs a time to heal, thus they will not actively involve themselves in the war for the Iron Throne. Many of their men went South with the young wolf, and only a few returned. Would they be willing to risk everything again, for a southron king with a measly host and no supporters? I do not think the North will rally under Stannis to back his claim as king, they have a war of their own to fight (i.e the massive threat of the Others, Ironborn and also there is the presence of wildlings that will likely concern them).

Oh yeah, and winter is coming....

[House Draper]

They'll bend the knee for Stannis as long as he doesn't force them to give up the Old Gods. He didn't force the northern mountain clans, so I'd say he's got the North's allegiance .... for as long as he's alive anyway.

[Djinn]

With the money from the Iron Bank, Stannis is to big to fail!

[Third World King]

With the money from the Iron Bank, Stannis is to big to fail!

Money never buys loyalty, and to win the Iron throne, one would need loyalty and support from the lords and people of the realm. Stannis has neither.

I feel whoever has support of Dorne may just snatch the Iron Throne from the Lannisters/Tyrells.

[Free Northman]

Where to begin?

Does the North gain from being ruled by the Iron Throne?

This is the common statement in support of a united Seven Kingdoms. That the central authority in King's Landing is to all the regions benefit. But is that really the case for the North?

What do they gain out of it?

Does the Iron Throne protect them from their enemies? Well, no. We read that when Raymun Redbeard invaded the North with his wildling army, it was the Stark in Winterfell together with the Umbers that crushed him at the Long Lake, at the cost of the Stark lord's life.

No mention of the Iron Throne assisting at all.

When Skagos rebelled 100 years ago, it was the Stark in Winterfell who raised his banners and subdued the rebellion, again at the cost of his son's life.

And when Dagon Greyjoy raided the western coast 100 years ago, it was the Starks that allied with the Lannisters to repell their mutual enemy.

So the answer is no, the Iron Throne does not assist the North in a time of war.

This is different for the south, where a threat to any southern kingdom is also a threat to the neighbouring southern kingdoms, hence the Iron Throne WOULD benefit the south.

Next, the question is whether the Iron Throne strengthens the North's borders by any chance. This is definitely a huge advantage in the south, where the crown's authority can prevent wars between Dorne and the Reach, or between the Westerlands and the Riverlands and the Vale, who all share common borders and are intricately linked in terms of their security.

But does this hold true for the North? No. Their southern border is impregnable from attack thanks to the Neck and Moat Cailin. And their isolation means that most of the southern kingdoms would never have the cause or the means to attack them. Dorne can certainly never attack the North. Neither could the Reach nor the Stormlands. Nor could the Westerlands for that matter, without a direct land route to support their troops through the Riverlands and up through the Neck.

The Riverlands and the Vale are the only two Kingdoms that are close enough to ever consider an attack on the North to be feasible, and we know the Riverlands can never engage in such a war due to their vulnerable borders on all sides, plus the Neck would render any such invasion useless.

Same with the Vale, who would have to rely on a naval assault, but that would at most only ever give them a coastal foothold, as the North's size and climate makes it impossible to hold for a southern army without Dragons.

Therefore the North's only real enemies are the wildlings and the Ironborn, and rebel lords from within. And as has been shown, they effectively dealt with all such threats in the last 100 years on their own, not to mention over the last 8000 years.

Next we have the Night's Watch which gets some nominal support from the crown, but again we are led to believe that the North is by far the most generous supporter of the watch, both in manpower and resource support. The South sends them the odd prisoner and maester and that's about it. The Watch was maintained for thousands of years prior to Aegon's conquest, and by all accounts was maintained in a far better state than after he unified the Kingdoms. So clearly the support of the Iron Throne means little to the Watch.

So from a security point of view the Iron Throne makes perfect sense for the South, but means nothing to the North.

Next we have the economy.

Does the Iron Throne use its northern taxes to maintain roads in the North? Nope. We read that the King's Road is little more than a muddy track in the North. Clearly, that is maintained by local lords only, if anyone, and the Iron Throne aids nothing in this endeavour.

How about food during Winter? Well, no again. The lords save a fifth of their own harvests each year, and it seems any additional food that's needed if enough wasn't stored has to be bought from other regions, be it more fertile regions in the North - such as White Harbor - or from further afield, such as the Vale or the Free Cities. Again, the Iron Throne means nothing for the North in this regard.

So, after showing all of the areas where the Iron Throne does not assist at all, the question is, why does the North then pay taxes to the South? What do they get in return? We know these taxes are considerable, as just the taxes withheld by White Harbor for 1 year was sufficient for the North to build a warfleet of 50 ships and strengthen the defensive fortifications of the largest city in the North.

If these taxes were withheld by ALL the lords of the North, rather than just by the Manderlys, the North would be significantly richer, and able to develop their resources even further, be it a fleet on their western seaboard to deal with the Ironborn, or better road infrastructure, or just setting up more greenhouses or granaries in their strongholds. Or even just equipping their armies with better armor and weaponry.

The bottomline is while the Iron Throne makes for a far more stable South, it has vitually no benefit for the North, while costing them an immense amount of taxes annually.

The North would be FAR better off ruling itself again.

[Aki]

North will be independent, every kingdom in Westeros will be independent, only reason they were united in Seven Kingdoms was because of Aegon (dragons). After Targ's were gone, only thing that kept North in Seven Kingdoms was personal friendship between Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon. That gone, there are no reasons for North to accept power of Iron Throne. Kings Landing is like 2000 miles away, long winter is coming, so nobody can't invade North for next 5 or 10 years.

Stannis is at the North now. He is fighting Boltons, and that's why he has support of Northmen. With Boltons gone, Starks returning to Winterfell - old Kings of Winter will be back on their throne. If he survives this war, Stannis should be happy if he can reclaim Stormlands, maybe even Kings Landing for himself.

Central power is gone (Robert dead), nothing can't keep Kingdoms together. The North, Iron Islands, Riverlands, North Riverlands (state that Frey's are carving out for themselves, with Riverrun, Seagard, Twins), The Vale, The Reach, The Kingdom of Rock (Western lands, once Lannisters loose their interest for Iron Throne), Dorne. All of them will be independant, not just the North.

[ScottBastardStark]

Oh yeah, and winter is coming....

As of the end of DwD, Winter is here...

[The Fallen]

The different regions have been mostly autonomous anyway. And if the population of Westeros is ravaged by the Others I can't see there being anyone strong enough to centralize power.

I think Free Northman perfectly stated the case for northern independence.