Seven Kingdoms money compared to ours?

[Gradimir]

I'm not sure if thread like this already exists, but I was wondering, if anyone has any close info about how much would their currency worth compared to, let's say dollar? I guess a dragon would be around $1,000 or so?

[Dragonbinder]

wow finally!

more than this, does 1 Honor = 1 Dragon? how do they change coins? bothers me all the time :/

[Ser Lepus]

I have found the system works better if we assume 1 dragon = 1 late medieval sterling pound.

Using that, in medieval England:

1 sterling pound = 2174.4 kg. (4793.731 lb) of wheat or 217 kg. (478.403 lb) of good cheese, or 9.82 kg. (21.65 lb) of sugar. or 114 liters of good wine or 10 average pigs or 20 yards of linen or 10 yards of wool cloth.

1,5 sterling pounds = monthly payment for a mercenary man-at-arms.

3 sterling pounds = monthly payment for a mercenary knight.

14 sterling pounds = About the price of a chain mail hauberk

16 sterling pounds = About the price of a composite mail and plate armor

53 sterling pounds = About the price of a high end full plate armor.

2000 sterling pounds = About the price of a galley.

333 sterling pounds = About the price of a cog.

Also, 1 westerosi dragon = 210 stags = 11760 pennies.

Of course the prices given in the books don't make any sense anyway, neither the small everyday expenses, nor large amounts of money like the Tourney Of the Hand prizes, or the price of ships when compared to untrained slaves and to Unsullied (we know Khal Drogo hoped to buy ships in exchange for untrained, cheap women and children, but on the other hand, we know that a cog and two merchant galleys are worth as much as two thousand Unsullied, that are the most expensive fighting slaves in the world; how many slaves would have Khal Drogo needed in order to buy enough ships to cross to Westeros with his 40.000 screamers? A million? Ten millions?)

[Gradimir]

I have found the system works better if we assume 1 dragon = 1 late medieval sterling pound.

Using that, in medieval England:

1 sterling pound = 2174.4 kg. (4793.731 lb) of wheat or 217 kg. (478.403 lb) of good cheese, or 9.82 kg. (21.65 lb) of sugar. or 114 liters of good wine or 10 average pigs or 20 yards of linen or 10 yars of wool cloth.

1,5 sterling pounds = monthly payment for a men-at-arms.

3 sterling pounds = monthly payment for a mercenary knight.

14 sterling pounds = About the price of a chain mail hauberk

16 sterling pounds = About the price of a composite mail and plate armor

53 sterling pounds = About the price of a high end full plate armor.

2000 sterling pounds = About the price of a galley.

333 sterling pounds = About the price of a cog.

Also, 1 westerosi dragon = 56 stags = 11760 pennies.

Of course the prices given in the books don't make any sense anyway, neither the small everyday expenses, nor large amounts of money like the Tourney Of the Hand prizes, or the price of ships when compared to untrained slaves and to Unsullied (we know Khal Drogo hoped to buy ships in exchange for untrained, cheap women and children, but on the other hand, we know that a cog and two merchant galleys are worth as much as two thousand Unsullied, that are the most expensive fighting slaves in the world; how many slaves would have Khal Drogo needed in order to buy enough ships to cross to Westeros with his 40.000 screamers? A million? Ten millions?)

Drogo most likely didn't knew much about boat prices as he never needed one, and Dany probably expected Ilyrio to lend her his boats if it comes to attacking Westeros with Dothraki.. But let's get back to the thread :)

From your sterling pound comparison, if we take the wheat, which is around $400 per ton right now, the result is a bit more than $800 for a sterling pound. Average price of cheese or wine would probably give similar numbers too, but the sugar was damn expensive back then :D

Also, price of armor in pounds seems expensive too, I've read somewhere that a decent set of new armor would cost around 4 dragons.

But yeah, a dragon should worth anywhere between $700-$1000, a stag $15-$20, and a copper $.10

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

i never gave it much thought, but based how large the amounts were on peoples reactions. as an easy way to think i just said 1 copper= 10 dollars. 1 stag = 100 dollars, 1 dragon =1,000 dollars

[Gradimir]

i never gave it much thought, but based how large the amounts were on peoples reactions. as an easy way to think i just said 1 copper= 10 dollars. 1 stag = 100 dollars, 1 dragon =1,000 dollars

We already know about the dragon/stag/copper exchange rate... Also a copper as $10 is waay to high, it's more likely to be $.10

[Ser Lepus]

From your sterling pound comparison, if we take the wheat, which is around $400 per ton right now, the result is a bit more than $800 for a sterling pound. Average price of cheese or wine would probably give similar numbers too, but the sugar was damn expensive back then

We should take into account that today's wheat is dirt cheap when compared with the past: Productivity was low, and the peasants, after paying their taxes and feeding themselves and their families, were left only a little left to sell for money (if they could even do so) or exchange it for clothes, metal and other things they needed; also, there were many poor people making stuff (like pots, cloth, furniture...etc.) for wages that allowed them to buy just enought food to keep living and remain healthy enough to keep working.

So it's difficult to assign a fixed equivalency to old and modern money, since some things were a lot cheaper and others a lot more expensive.

Also, price of armor in pounds seems expensive too, I've read somewhere that a decent set of new armor would cost around 4 dragons

Armor was way too cheap in the Hedge Knight book; a decent set of armor was a huge investment for a non-noble, and as a matter of fact, in many places and times if you had the horse and armor, and were willing to fight, your lord would have you knighted without asking about your birth, because heavy cavalry was too rare and valuable to get picky (those kind of knights were called "brown knights" in medieval Spain, and were often rich peasants that got tax exemptions in exchange of military service or members of some city guard).

If ASOIAF were a bit more realistic, Dunk should never have been able to afford a new armor; I guess the armorsmith was just tricking him, and resold the old hauberk instead of using it as scrap iron.

[Alester Florent]

Yeah, direct comparisons are very difficult, and often misleading, because labour, for the most part, is very expensive now in comparison to history, especially when compared to food. Society has changed in such a way that working out the purchasing power of medieval money in "modern" terms is all but impossible. Ser Lepus's estimates seem good, though, if you take that into account.

[SeanF]

We should take into account that today's wheat is dirt cheap when compared with the past: Productivity was low, and the peasants, after paying their taxes and feeding themselves and their families, were left only a little left to sell for money (if they could even do so) or exchange it for clothes, metal and other things they needed; also, there were many poor people making stuff (like pots, cloth, furniture...etc.) for wages that allowed them to buy just enought food to keep living and remain healthy enough to keep working.

So it's difficult to assign a fixed equivalency to old and modern money, since some things were a lot cheaper and others a lot more expensive.

Armor was way too cheap in the Hedge Knight book; a decent set of armor was a huge investment for a non-noble, and as a matter of fact, in many places and times if you had the horse and armor, and were willing to fight, your lord would have you knighted without asking about your birth, because heavy cavalry was too rare and valuable to get picky (those kind of knights were called "brown knights" in medieval Spain, and were often rich peasants that got tax exemptions in exchange of military service or members of some city guard).

If ASOIAF were a bit more realistic, Dunk should never have been able to afford a new armor; I guess the armorsmith was just tricking him, and resold the old hauberk instead of using it as scrap iron.

If one Dragon = one Noble (one third of a pound sterling) as suggested on another thread, then 4 Dragons for a suit of armour is too little.

If one Dragon = one Pound Sterling, then that would be about right for the cost of a helmet, mail hauberk, and breastplate in 14th century England. A suit of plate armour would be far more expensive, however.

[Ciazio]

If ASOIAF were a bit more realistic, Dunk should never have been able to afford a new armor; I guess the armorsmith was just tricking him, and resold the old hauberk instead of using it as scrap iron.

I think that ASOIAF is heavily realistic, even when talking about money. Dunk & Egg tales are settled about 80 years before ASOIAF's start. In 80 years there might be a lot of inflation going over.

Even in the real world happens. For example in my country (Italy) my grandfather had a monthly wage of 200 liras in 1946, today with 200 liras (0.10 euros) you hardly buy a single candy. And we hadn't wars after 1945.

I noticed that there might have been a lot of inflation in Westeros (probably due to Robert's rebellion and his crazy management after) looking at the prizes for tourney champions at Ashford Meadow and at King's Landing (Tourney of the Hand).

IIRC it was a ratio like 1.000 to 10.000, and it's not that much of inflation.

[Ser Lepus]

If one Dragon = one Noble (one third of a pound sterling) as suggested on another thread, then 4 Dragons for a suit of armour is too little.

If one Dragon = one Pound Sterling, then that would be about right for the cost of a helmet, mail hauberk, and breastplate in 14th century England. A suit of plate armour would be far more expensive, however.

I don't think a dragon could be worth the same as a noble, because the stag would have very little value for a silver coin, then: The noble was worth six silver shillings and eight copper pence, and the original 1663 guinea gold coin was worth twenty silver shillings (a whole sterling pound).

A gold dragon is worth 210 silver stags, so, either the dragon is a very big, valuable coin, or the stags are very small coins.

I guess GRRM could be using Modern Age gold and silver prices as reference, instead of medieval ones; price of silver dropped after the discovery of America (due to the great amount of silver imported from South America).

I think that ASOIAF is heavily realistic, even when talking about money. Dunk & Egg tales are settled about 80 years before ASOIAF's start. In 80 years there might be a lot of inflation going over.

Even in the real world happens. For example in my country (Italy) my grandfather had a monthly wage of 200 liras in 1946, today with 200 liras (0.10 euros) you hardly buy a single candy. And we hadn't wars after 1945.

I noticed that there might have been a lot of inflation in Westeros (probably due to Robert's rebellion and his crazy management after) looking at the prizes for tourney champions at Ashford Meadow and at King's Landing (Tourney of the Hand).

IIRC it was a ratio like 1.000 to 10.000, and it's not that much of inflation.

ASOIAF is quite realistic a lot of the time, but I think GRRM didn't think too much about some prices. The ships and slaves prices are quite difficult to understand.

As for inflation, i don't think there is too much inflation in Westeros: The value of medieval gold and silver coins was more or less equal to the value of the precious metals they were made, so, unless somebody has been adding copper to the dragons and stags, their value shouldn't drop. Also, at the beginning of A Game Of Thrones they are at the end of a nine years summer, so the price of food, liquor and fabrics should be lower than ever.

[Ser Lepus]

On the price of armor, I have searched for more prices: a plate and mail 1374 knightly armor was worth 16 pounds, but there were cheaper ones: a XII century cheap hauberk was worth 5 pounds, and a XV century squire's armor was worth 5 or 6 pounds, so I guess Dunk could have bought a very cheap armor for 4 dragons/pounds.

[Ciazio]

so I guess Dunk could have bought a very cheap armor for 4 dragons/pounds.

I agree with you, still Dunk seems to keep his armor in high consideration. Not because is his, but because of its quality (quality proven during the tourney and his next adventures).

I know that gold coins' value is linked with gold's value, but the only reasonable explanation to Dunk's armor price and to the difference between the tourney's prizes is inflation.

If not, GRRM did not think about money's value :laugh:

[SeanF]

Ian Mortimer in A Time Traveller's Guide to Medieval England gives the cost of a hauberk, helmet, breastplate, lance, shield, and sword at £5 to £6 in the fourteenth century.

A full set of plate, plus suitable weapons would be about three times that.

Overall, One Dragon = One Pound Sterling works pretty well for me when reading the books. It's a realistic figure for the ransom that Lord Selwyn offers for Brienne and the reward for capturing Jaime. Likewise, one stag (ie 4d) is a realistic figure for a room for the night, a meal, and wine, at an inn.

The exception is when you get to the prizes paid at the Hand's Tourney. Even though Martin is emphasising Robert's profligacy, these prizes are far too high. Anguy would have been become richer than most gentry with his prize. The Hound's prize would have put him up there with all but the richest lords.

Trying to work out an exchange rate for medieval vs modern coinage is very difficult, as the prices for different commodities have increased at vastly different rates, and wages, rents, and the value of land have risen much more rapidly than retail prices since then. A medieval family would spend about two thirds of its money on food, while a modern British family would spend about one fifth. By contrast, the biggest single item for the latter will be the cost of housing, whereas that was relatively small for the medieval family.

Some comparisons are useful. The richest man in 14th century England was John of Gaunt, on c.£18,000 a year. The richest woman was Queen Isabella, on £13,000 p/a. An Earl would be on £1-3,000 p.a. A Baron on £300-750 p.a. A Knight's Fee (the minimum needed to support a Knight) was £20 p.a. Any man earning more than £40 a year was required, in theory, to put himself forward for knighthood.

A fairly skilled free labourer could £2-4 p.a. A servant might earn as little as £1 p.a.

Plainly, those figures are dwarfed by Tywin Lannister's income.

[Ser Lepus]

I have been reading a book about Florence's history, and there is a fact that puzzled me: The Medicis, the family of bankers that were so f***ing rich that not only managed to seize control of the city, but eventually intermarried with french and spanish royalty, had during the XV century a fortune of about 250,000 florins.

A pound sterling was worth something in between 1'2-1'44 florins, meaning that the Medicis had a fortune of about 175,000-200,000 pounds sterling...

Also, one of the Medicis, a cardinal that would eventully become pope, gave his niece a dowry of 5,000-6,000 florins, that is, 3,500-5,000 pounds sterling...

That helps understand how crazy are the debt of the Seven Kingdoms, the fortune of the Lannisters, or the prizes at the tourney...

[Gradimir]

I have been reading a book about Florence's history, and there is a fact that puzzled me: The Medicis, the family of bankers that were so f***ing rich that not only managed to seize control of the city, but eventually intermarried with french and spanish royalty, had during the XV century a fortune of about 250000 florins.

A pound sterling was worth something in between 1'2-1'44 florins, meaning that the Medicis had a fortune of about 175000-200000 pounds sterling...

Also, one of the Medicis, a cardinal that would eventully become pope, gave his niece a dowry of 5000-6000 florins, that is, 3500-5000 pounds sterling...

That helps understand how crazy are the debt of the Seven Kingdoms, the fortune of the Lannisters, or the prizes at the tourney...

So Cersei got almost a billion dollars of debt to Faith erased, and crown owes Lannisters 3+ billions... Wow, these numbers are indeed crazy..

[King Aerys the Just]

So Cersei got almost a billion dollars of debt to Faith erased, and crown owes Lannisters 3+ billions... Wow, these numbers are indeed crazy..

They are odd, yes, but you should also remember that Westeros is a really huge kingdom. There's no medieval European state that could even compare in size, population and military might. In that regard it's probably closer to the Roman Empire at its height.

Tywin Lannister is basically the ruler of a realm the size of medieval Britain on his own, and one that is budging with gold mines at that. The Medicis would probably be more similar in wealth and might to a house like the Florents, Castameres or Boltons. That is, one step below the Lords Paramount ,who are all comparable to very mighty monarchs in real history. Especially the Tyrells, since I think the only European power that could come close to putting a hundred thousand men in the field was the entire Byzantine Empire...

These monetary numbers given are still a bit weird, yes, but not as much as before.

[Ser Lepus]

When Phillip II of Spain took the throne at 1554, he found his dad had left a debt of 36 million ducats (a ducat was worth a bit less than a florin), which means the Spanish Empire's debt was of at least 25 million pounds sterling. Also, the annual deficit was of about 1 million ducats, that is, almost 700,000 pounds sterling.

I think the Spanish Empire, with its great extension and american gold and silver mines can approach Westeros better than other medieval or renaissance european countries.

[Alester Florent]

Tywin Lannister is basically the ruler of a realm the size of medieval Britain on his own, and one that is budging with gold mines at that. The Medicis would probably be more similar in wealth and might to a house like the Florents, Castameres or Boltons. That is, one step below the Lords Paramount ,who are all comparable to very mighty monarchs in real history. Especially the Tyrells, since I think the only European power that could come close to putting a hundred thousand men in the field was the entire Byzantine Empire...

It depends on the period, of course. The size of armies during the 13th century seem to have been quite a bit larger (even allowing for contemporary exaggeration of figures) than those of the mid-14th-15th centuries, thanks to the Plague. At their peak, the Andalusian caliphate might have managed over 100,000, and the Abbasids, etc. similarly. If the Jagiellons at their peak set their mind to it they could probably put 100,000 into the field even after the Plague, although I can't recall an occasion on which they actually did.

But, yeah, Westeros as a whole is probably comparable to Europe as a whole, rather than a single European state.

[scurvy]

I agree with you, still Dunk seems to keep his armor in high consideration. Not because is his, but because of its quality (quality proven during the tourney and his next adventures).

I know that gold coins' value is linked with gold's value, but the only reasonable explanation to Dunk's armor price and to the difference between the tourney's prizes is inflation.

If not, GRRM did not think about money's value :laugh:

In a time when gold is gold, inflation is based upon population. Economics are purely Malthusian. When a modern currency is floated on the world market it is not linked to a commodity. Inflation is based upon both monetary policy and volatility in the government. However, in a commodity linked economy (gold and silver) inflation is based upon population and the division of commodities among them (gold and silver and food). When there is famine, disease, and war inflation follows because of the scarcity of markets and potentially the scarcity of food, etc. But when the crisis ends due to the reduced population there is more commodities to spread among the lowered population and there is deflation and the increase in living standards. As the population grows the limited resources are again stretched and prices increase accordingly unless there is a technological breakthrough or an abnormally large harvest.