From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IX

[Lyanna Stark]

I think she could go a long way in helping Dany personally, and perhaps this will come into play through her connection to Tyrion, but outside of that, as you noted, there's the Vale army with its full strength, along with ample food stores which she could redirect to help defeat the Others. All of this connects to her growing self confidence and autonomy as well. With the landscape of Westeros changing so rapidly, those who distinguish themselves in whatever field stand a good chance of being able to experience the rewards for that service.

There is another option as well, which is also nearer and in great need, perhaps more so than the North: The Riverlands. If Sansa might act like a rallying force in the Riverlands, they will need food. And as a Tully/Stark, perhaps with the Blackfish at her side, I believe the Vale would help, especially if the Lannisters' situation in Kings Landing were weakening enough so that they cannot enforce their rule in the Riverlands.

Enter Red Wedding 2.0 at Riverrun, and the BWB, Sansa et all can claim it. I still do believe that Sansa needs a good reason to leg it from the Vale tho, perhaps even more dire than SR's life, as in both his life and her being forced into yet another marriage. Something will need to happen to make her do a real FU to Littlefinger. Maybe she will kill him later and just leave first.

[Brony Stark]

Well Doran has sent Nymeria and Tyene to KL in the two central settings of power - the small council and with the Faith - so I think we should see them stirring up/being involved in some interesting plots going forward. Then we have Arianne on her way to Aegon with Elia Sand, so the Dornish influence should definitely be felt in the next book.

And let us not forget Sarella at the Citadel, she might disappear and head back to Dorne with some important info.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

And she has seen Ellaria's strength of character and self-respect, as well as the love Oberyn had ( :bawl: ) for her. I'm glad she met Ellaria (one of my favorite minor characters along with Arianne and the Sand Snakes).

The Targaryens have always had close ties with the Martells. The current generation of Martells may not be as kindly disposed towards Dany because of what happened to Quentyn (which wasn't her fault, stoopid kid decided to mess with dragons!) but it's possible they will still ally with her. And Dany herself had a paramour. Maybe Dany will introduce more freedom for women into Westeros? Maybe the Dornish influence will become stronger?

In any event, I do want to see Sansa with a family and children and a love life, but I hate the thought of her being married off just for her claim (and so does she!). Her taking a paramour would give her the best of both worlds - someone who could give her love and a family for herself, not for her claim on the North.

It wasn't Dany's fault per say, but she did kinda blow him off and made him desperate. Then, he thought he'd be a hero like in the stories and that worked out about as well as it usually does in ASOIAF.

I'm not saying Dany did wrong (the contract was for her brother and was made without her consent or knowledge), but she could have him made him an adviser or something instead of filling his head about fantasy's of dragon riding. He was a scion of House Martell and could be a big help in getting her her throne. Focus on the goal. Not the practice city.

So, while Quentyn was stupid and got himself a horrible death for such, Dany should be more focused on gaining allies for the Iron Throne than Mereen.

No. That sounds wrong too. I blame Quentyn for his own death. However, I think Dany made a mistake by not doing more to secure House Martell's backing.

Good stuff.

I think the Northerner's problem is fear the Lannisters will take control. If Sansa shows up with Tyrion or Lannister support, I don't see why they wouldn't support her as long as she can prove she is who she says she is and not controlled by anyone else. Actually, being blamed for Joffery's death might help her in this matter.

I think there is 0 chance Stannis would except Littlefinger and Littlefinger knows this.

[brashcandy]

There is another option as well, which is also nearer and in great need, perhaps more so than the North: The Riverlands. If Sansa might act like a rallying force in the Riverlands, they will need food. And as a Tully/Stark, perhaps with the Blackfish at her side, I believe the Vale would help, especially if the Lannisters' situation in Kings Landing were weakening enough so that they cannot enforce their rule in the Riverlands.

Enter Red Wedding 2.0 at Riverrun, and the BWB, Sansa et all can claim it. I still do believe that Sansa needs a good reason to leg it from the Vale tho, perhaps even more dire than SR's life, as in both his life and her being forced into yet another marriage. Something will need to happen to make her do a real FU to Littlefinger. Maybe she will kill him later and just leave first.

Great point Lyanna. We keep forgetting the Riverlands, but they are in dire need too, and much closer for assistance from the Vale. There's also Lothor's keep and the Quiet Isle all in the mix. My personal take is that she won't take out LF until the final book, but that's left to be seen. I think Martin wants LF around for a while, but Sansa cannot be trapped with him in the Vale for daddy time much longer. If we are going to eventually see some kind of positive payoff to the exploration of her sexual awakening, friendship with Mya and growing talents, all roads lead away from LF.

And let us not forget Sarella at the Citadel, she might disappear and head back to Dorne with some important info.

:) Ah yes Sarella. My theory is that she'll be the one to head to the Wall, perhaps with a certain horn in her possession.

[Kittykatknits]

I was pondering ways and reasons for Sansa to get to Wintefell related to the Snow Winterfell foreshadowing. Sansa is in need of a marriage annulment and the High Septon isn't likely to grant it. He can't be bribed or threatened and Sansa can't exactly show up to make an appeal in person. How do the Old Gods deal with annulments?

If there is a Great Northern Conspiracy to draft Jon Snow or render some other disposition of Winterfell, might LF want to play his Sansa card? Sansa has a better claim to Winterfell than Jon. Might LF believe that if Winterfell is retaken by pro-Stark forces that he can get them to accept Sansa as the Stark heir? Since LF is the new Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, might he consider trying to claim that title in fact if he were married to a Tully heir?

So my crackpot crystal ball reading for today says that LF, after installing a secure enough pawn in the Vale, takes Sansa to Winterfell to get an Old Gods annulment with the intention of marrying her to claim the North and the Riverlands thus giving him control of three of the Seven Kingdoms.

Well there's a theory, which I really like, that since she married before the 7, it wouldn't be recognized before the religion of the Old Gods so she wouldn't need an annulment.

The only way I can see the High Septon being bribed is if he sees incredible benefit for the Faith, an agreement to force conversion in the North maybe. I don't see threats being successful at all. I don't think we have any mention that an annulment with the old gods is different than with the Faith. Lady Waynwood was probably married with the old gods and Ser Rodrik seemed to think it was still a legal marriage once it was consumated even if it was against her will.

The one thing about LF returning North, I don't think he would attempt to do that as long as he knows Stannis is there. In GOT, he tells Ned that if Stannis would return to power, he'd be ruined. And if she is still married, would the Northmen accept Lady Lannister with LF attached at the heel?

Although I love the idea of the marriage not being recognized before the religion of the Old Gods.

Yes he did!

We had talked in the last thread (or was it the thread before that?) on what tools Sansa might use to take down LF. I'd love to see her use on of his own weapons against him. And there is no other character in the series who is associated with songs as strongly as Sansa.

I'd help, but I seriously need to work on my thesis :/ I'll be freeeee as a bird in like three months though, so maybe?

Well there's a theory, which I really like, that since she married before the 7, it wouldn't be recognized before the religion of the Old Gods so she wouldn't need an annulment.

Let me know if you want to do it, I'm fine with waiting a while. Doing a series re-read right now and want to finish that before starting again. Would love to work with you on this.

I could be wrong, but doesn't Stannis plan on killing Littlefinger?

I don't remember if Stannis had planned to kill LF but we know that he wanted to close the brothels in KL. LF also tells Ned that he would lose everything if Stannis came to power which would imply that he'd at least lose his position at court and probably more. It's another Ned moment that had me :bang: . LF tells him this and then Ned accepts LFs offer anyways.

However, I don't think we have read anywhere that Sansa has heard about the grievous crimes of "The Hound" at the Saltpans (putting a whole town to the sword, raping, burning, chewing a girl's breasts off). If she finds that out, what would her reaction to him be? Or worse, if she finds out that Arya Stark was last seen at the Saltpans with him, and is now presumed dead, will she think the Hound raped and murdered Arya ?

I don't think she will at all and I think she would be suspicious of Saltpans, especially if she hears that it was burned. She said it herself, she knows his secret.

I agree that what information Sansa is holding now is like an atomic bomb. I just don't think Sansa has fully processed what it means yet. Not politically at any rate. Part of her is disassociating it, focusing on the immediate events, the personal side. The problem is when she fully grasps the magnitude of what she's been told: Lysa Arryn murdered her husband, the Lord of the Vale, annd blamed the lannisters - triggering the death of the sovereign, and the War of 5 Kings. Sansa's father, mother, sister, and brothers (and aunt, LOL) are all dead because of it.

I sometimes feel like this series doesn't just have a Chekov's gun or atomic bomb ready to go off but an entire nuclear arsenal on a timer with only a couple of minutes left in the countdown. I completely agree that Sansa as not fully understood what she has been told. Her existence for so long has been on a day to day level as it has been more about survival. I do think she will figure some of this out and it would fuel her distrust of LF but I wonder if this would cause her to act by itself. My guess is that it will be one of many factors that move her forward. LF has basically told her that he intends to murder her cousin, she has all this information from her aunt, LF's behavior makes her uncomfortable, and now the marriage despite the fact that he previously told her to leave WF in the past. Sansa has all the information she needs, its time for her to connect the dots.

[Kittykatknits]

First off, I just want to say I love these threads. :)

Several people posted earlier about Sansa and whether she will have a role in fighting the Others, and what will happen when the dragons finally make their grand appearance in Westeros. I’ve been rereading GOT and I read this passage the other day that just jumped out at me as possible foreshadowing:

(It’s after Ned and the girls have gotten word from WF that Bran is alive, and Ned takes them out to the castle godswood to pray about it):

The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned’s cloak. All through the dawn hours he kept his vigil alone. When the dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon’s breath surrounded the girls where they lay. “I dreamed of Bran,” Sansa had whispered to him. “I saw him smiling.”

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar (and a plant named after the magical power of a mythological creature is just a plant), so it might not be foreshadowing at all, but it definitely made me stop (and be nervous for the girls) in a way it hadn’t the first time I read the series. I think it also seemed foreshadowy to me in part because it was mentioned in conjunction with dreaming, which tends to be prophetic in this series.

Although when I think about it in the context of the Others coming, the dragon’s breath might be a symbol of protection for both of them. It also makes me think they will somehow be reunited again. Like I said I’m not entirely sure what to think of it, but it jumped out at me and seemed relevant to this discussion.

Haha!

I think this is really interesting! And I like your reading of the dragon's breath as a symbol of protection. There have been credible theories that Arya might be asked to infiltrate Dany's camp on its way back to Westeros, so it's definitely possible that we could see one sister closely aligned with these animals, and maybe Bran as well using his warg powers. Martin can really do anything here :) I personally think Dany might end up landing in the North first, but it could very well be the Vale.

I think there is another piece of foreshadowing in Bran's first POV chapter in Clash. He's thinking on his sisters being alone in KL and needing help. He thinks to himself that if he could, he would use Summer and the power of the wolves to find and save them. I think Bran is going to use either his warg powers or the world wide wiernet to help his sisters some day. It's possible that he will attempt to contact Sansa now that she is out of the Eeyrie and Nymeria is still in the Riverlands for some purpose.

I also highlighted the last sentence because I too for a long time thought that Dany would ultimately land in the North and essentially 'pass over' the whole Iron Throne/Game of Thrones nonsense due to the much more immediate threat of the Others. But perhaps this will still be the case, but she'll land in or around the Vale instead and make her way father North? Or, perhaps as some have suggested in theories elsewhere on this board, the Riverlands/Trident area (closer to the Vale) will be where the final showdown with the Others will take place? In other words, perhaps the North will become overrun by the Others (for a time during Winter) and they will make their way South (raising wights as they go along). I always thought it was significant that there were/are now so many dead bodies lying around the Riverlands. (I know its likely that the Others have to kill the person themselves in order to make them a wight, but still, it seems significant to me).

All of this is to say that perhaps Sansa's involvement with the 'final showdown' won't even necessitate her already having become Regent of Winterfell (though that would be great) because maybe the fight will converge in an area closer to the Vale (if that is indeed where she remains for a while longer in the storyline).

I don't think Dany will ever go to the North, at least not before the fight against the Others. She won't know anything is going on with the Wall when she sets forth to go to Westeros (in theory) and she will be set on taking back the Throne. The North wouldn't make strategic sense. Plus, we know that Aegon has already taken Storm's End and will eventually head to KL. Martin has also confirmed that we will have a second dance of dragons so I foresee Dany in the South somewhere. Since I'm convinced she will be involved with the fight against the Others, I think this lends more support to my idea of the final battle being in the Riverlands and the Trident.

Also, let's look at the situation in the North with Stannis. I'm going to assume that he will win the battle for WF and take it back (please let that happen!!). At this point, the Ironborn are gone and the Boltons would be out of power. If Stannis is still alive, I'd think he would want to begin heading South as well, right?

I think Sansa will make her way back home after this is done, in keeping with the name of the final book, A Dream of Spring.

(Since everyone else has a ASOIAF avatar I thought I'd be original - and I find it hypnotic too, that is why I love it! :D And I love kitties!)

Some speculation on a couple of other people, Bronze Yohn Royce and Anya Waynwood: When Bronze Yohn meets "Alayne," she notes that his brows crinkle and he peers suspiciously at her. "Do I know you, girl?" Bronze Yohn had indeed met Sansa before, and Sansa was so worried that he had recognized her that she couldn't speak. And she briefly considers throwing herself at his feet and begging for rescue, but she then thinks that BY "had never fought for Robb, so why should he fight for me?" Sansa is so over knights by now, isn't she! :)

However, I think that BY has his suspicions of who "Alayne" is, and he is no friend of Petyr Baelish. I also was pointed to something interesting from GRRM himself in a So Spake Martin post that Petyr's weakness is that he has no army. BY on the other hand can command a huge army as the head of the Lords Declarant. If he figures out that Alayne is in fact Ned's Little Girl, she might not need HtH to have an army at her disposal. ETA: Here is the link to the SSM quote about LF having no army:

http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1284/ "GRRM laughed and said I need to remember that for all his power Littlefinger has no army."

Now, Anya Waynwood. In AFFC when the Lords Declarant meet and Alayne is hostessing, they start making smarmy remarks about her and her virginity :stillsick: (I wanted to smack Lord Hunter and Lyn Corbray one - "ripe for plucking" indeed! ). Then Anya Waynwood speaks up for her: "Is this what passes for courtesy at Heart's Home?...The girl is young and gently bred, and has suffered enough horrors. Mind your tongue, ser."

Aside from showing the sexual harrassment that bastard girls have to put up with, I wonder if Anya also knows more than she wants to let on. How does she know that a bastard girl is "gently bred?" Has Petyr had a way to tell her that here is his bastard daughter who was raised in a septry? I don't think so, as this meeting seems to be the first time they've seen Petyr in a while. Then the "suffered through enough horrors." I assume that Anya probably knows about how Lysa died and that Alayne witnessed it, but I wonder if that is enough to use the plural of "horrors." Does Anya also have a suspicion that Alayne is Sansa and has been through multiple horrors indeed?

I am wondering what roles Bronze Yohn Royce and Anya Waynwood - both of whom seem to dislike and resent Petyr and NOT want him in power - will be vis-a-vis Sansa.

He he, I love kitties too! :) LF has no hard power which is part of the reason why Cersei and others think he isn't a threat. He's used other means to gain what he wants, but you have me thinking. He's never had a reason so far to need an army. It's one thing for him to gain the support of the Lords Declarant by buying up debt, but would they march to war for him? I'm much less certain of this. It goes back to the different ways to rule. The man buys loyalty whereas Sansa inspires love. LF's way reminds me of a sellsword army, it will only care you so far.

I looked at the link you provided and saw something else that caught my eye:

George says that Littlefinger is the Lord of the Riverlands but that he is going to run into trouble. I commented that Littlefinger is really powerful now that he has the Riverlands and supposed control of the Eyrie. GRRM laughed and said that I need to remember that for all his power Littlefinger has no army.

There's another reference to the Riverlands again! I really think we are going to start seeing his downfall accelarate in WoW. I'm pretty convinced that there will be a RW 2 and we know that the BWB is in the Riverlands as well.

One more thing about BY, Sansa thinks to herself that he never did anything to help Robb yet that isn't quite the whole truth. We know that several Vale lords did want to go help Robb with BY being amongst the most vocal abot it. I think this is a big clue that Sansa will not need to marry HtH to gain support from the Vale lords.

I go back and forth on whether people in the Vale know who Sansa is, I can talk myself in to either side of the argument. But, if they do not yet, I'm pretty certain her identity will be known by the end of WoW.

Indeed. My hope is that he meant Sansa but then wrote the whole Daario as Dany's paramour afterward in part to throw us off. ;)

Ok, I realize that is ridiculous wishful thinking on my part. :P

Actually, I think its fair speculation. Martin wrote Storm back in 2000 and still planned to have the five year gap in place. He then started working on the next book in the series and did so for a few years, writing with that five year gap in place. It was only after writing a good chunk of this book, that he scrapped his plans and the five year gap to begin anew. He then started writing again and realized it was to big for one book so switched the story again to focus on only a few of the characters. When Feast came out, he claimed that half of Dance was already done and he hoped to have that book out in a year or so (famous last words!). Instead, he ended up writing and rewriting everything in Essos because of the Mereen knot. Due to the lack of the gap, Martin had to pretty much create a storyline for Dany that would not otherwise have existed. So, it is possible that Daario was originally supposed to have a smaller role or that we would learn about their relationship via Dany's memories. No real way to know. But, we do have some basis for speculation. Either way, I do agree with brashcandy, her relatioship with Daario gives us insight into Sansa's with Sandor.

[Lux Starkgaryen]

First post on this forum (despite its reputation let's say):

I lurked and read most of the Sansa's reread threads and loved it. With Dany they are my 2 fav female characters in ASOIAF (maybe because I kinda think, in such a world, I would be a mix of the two).

Without being a hardcore Sansan shipper I find this relationship great.

As every first-time poster I think, I don't feel like I have a lot to offer right now to the topic, but my congratulations to all of you!

[sh_wulff]

[unlurk]

Thank you all for sharing your wonderful thoughts and conducting debates in such a respectful and cogent manner. Your various threads have given me much food for thought.

[relurk]

[Lady Lea]

First post on this forum (despite its reputation let's say):

I lurked and read most of the Sansa's reread threads and loved it. With Dany they are my 2 fav female characters in ASOIAF (maybe because I kinda think, in such a world, I would be a mix of the two).

Without being a hardcore Sansan shipper I find this relationship great.

As every first-time poster I think, I don't feel like I have a lot to offer right now to the topic, but my congratulations to all of you!

Welcome Lux! (is this a reference to Virgin Suicides? because if it is I LOVE IT)

And yes, as bad as it gets out there... this thread is pretty safe from hate/trolling (though not ALWAYS). Hope you'll join the discussion soon!

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Welcome Lux and sh_wulff!

It probably seems like I have nothing better to do than search through old SSM archives for crumbs, but I came across this: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2011/07/ Relevant quote: "Moved a Sansa chapter to TWOW because it was the beginning of a plot" so it was better off in a new book.

I cannot tell you how much I am looking forward to this. I think here is going to be where the little bird starts turning into a wolf and directing her own destiny. I believe the dirt she already has on LF (that Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn on his orders and framed the Lannisters) is going to come to the surface, though whether Sansa can use it as a weapon yet remains to be seen. Sansa has also thoroughly absorbed LF's methods in AFFC and was very quick to catch on - it didn't take her long to figure out Lyn Corbray was working for LF, for instance. She's also now very good at playing her cards close to the vest (she is not trusting Randa; in fact she is not blindly trusting anyone).

I like the idea of Bran somehow using the WWWeirnet to connect with Sansa and the rest of his siblings somehow. I also wonder what role Sansa will play in Rickon's development. He's going to be in pretty bad shape (mentally at least) after all this time on Skagos; if Osha's dead then he might be literally raised by wolves (and Shaggydog is as temperamental as Stranger!). Sansa might well have TWO little boys on her hands (Sweetrobin and Rickon) who need her Mother skills badly.

[Lux Starkgaryen]

Welcome Lux! (is this a reference to Virgin Suicides? because if it is I LOVE IT)

And yes, as bad as it gets out there... this thread is pretty safe from hate/trolling (though not ALWAYS). Hope you'll join the discussion soon!

Yep, and since my actual given name also refers to light Lux seemed like a good pseudo

And thank you for the welcome!

KittensRule.. - thank you too! (hah I dont know how many times I just stared and stared at your avatar lol). For the TWOW chapter, well it only fuels the impatience to read it!..

As a more general question, while lurking, I saw references made to a Reading Women thread: is it "over"? And, as one my favorite themes in the saga - again, especially with Dany and Sansa - is how they learn to take control of their sexuality, was it tackled comparatively with all the female characters??

[brashcandy]

Welcome to Lux and sh_wulff :)

As a more general question, while lurking, I saw references made to a Reading Women thread: is it "over"? And, as one my favorite themes in the saga - again, especially with Dany and Sansa - is how they learn to take control of their sexuality, was it tackled comparatively with all the female characters??

Here's the reading women thread, and yes, it's still open :)

As for the Dany/Sany sexuality link, we discussed it generally, but there hasn't been an intensive exploration of the parallels as yet. Perhaps it would be good to have a few contributions on that.

[Lady Lea]

Yep, and since my actual given name also refers to light Lux seemed like a good pseudo

And thank you for the welcome!

As a more general question, while lurking, I saw references made to a Reading Women thread: is it "over"? And, as one my favorite themes in the saga - again, especially with Dany and Sansa - is how they learn to take control of their sexuality, was it tackled comparatively with all the female characters??

Ah that's excellent, the Virgin Suicides is one of my favourite books (and films!). I wish I had a cool name, my name literally means "lame". I wish I was kidding.

The Reading Women thread was this: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68647-reading-women-in-westoros/page__st__0 It can still be revived although there isn't much space left in it, or you can ask Mythsandstuff to ask a mod to lock it and start anew with a Reading Women v.2.

[Kittykatknits]

There is another option as well, which is also nearer and in great need, perhaps more so than the North: The Riverlands. If Sansa might act like a rallying force in the Riverlands, they will need food. And as a Tully/Stark, perhaps with the Blackfish at her side, I believe the Vale would help, especially if the Lannisters' situation in Kings Landing were weakening enough so that they cannot enforce their rule in the Riverlands.

Enter Red Wedding 2.0 at Riverrun, and the BWB, Sansa et all can claim it. I still do believe that Sansa needs a good reason to leg it from the Vale tho, perhaps even more dire than SR's life, as in both his life and her being forced into yet another marriage. Something will need to happen to make her do a real FU to Littlefinger. Maybe she will kill him later and just leave first.

I'm pretty much convince we will see something like the RW 2 happen even though it won't play out the same exact way. I'm also convinced we will see Riverrun again. If you look at a map, it's in the heart of the Riverlands, not to far from either the Twins or Moat Cailin. It's in a great location to become a command base or something similar if my theory about the Trident is correct. I do think it is possible that Sansa wil act as a rallying point. Sansa may not ever be queen but she's learning quite a bit and will have many opportunities to show those skills.

Welcome Lux and sh_wulff!

It probably seems like I have nothing better to do than search through old SSM archives for crumbs, but I came across this: http://www.westeros..../Month/2011/07/ Relevant quote: "Moved a Sansa chapter to TWOW because it was the beginning of a plot" so it was better off in a new book.

I cannot tell you how much I am looking forward to this. I think here is going to be where the little bird starts turning into a wolf and directing her own destiny. I believe the dirt she already has on LF (that Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn on his orders and framed the Lannisters) is going to come to the surface, though whether Sansa can use it as a weapon yet remains to be seen. Sansa has also thoroughly absorbed LF's methods in AFFC and was very quick to catch on - it didn't take her long to figure out Lyn Corbray was working for LF, for instance. She's also now very good at playing her cards close to the vest (she is not trusting Randa; in fact she is not blindly trusting anyone).

I like the idea of Bran somehow using the WWWeirnet to connect with Sansa and the rest of his siblings somehow. I also wonder what role Sansa will play in Rickon's development. He's going to be in pretty bad shape (mentally at least) after all this time on Skagos; if Osha's dead then he might be literally raised by wolves (and Shaggydog is as temperamental as Stranger!). Sansa might well have TWO little boys on her hands (Sweetrobin and Rickon) who need her Mother skills badly.

Yep, I remember reading that SSM. If we look at Sansa's chapters in Feast, they were mostly about character development, setting up her storyline in the next couple of books. I'm certain that her chapters will move at a rather fast pace. I think the beginning of a plot means its more than just an initial meeting with HtH. I'm certain that we are starting to see many things move forward. She had a very lukewarm response to the marriage proposal and is now in a place where she can start to act. I wouldn't be surprised if this chapter has thoughts from her that she needs to figure out how to get away from LF, the very opposite of her thoughts in Feast.

Yep, and since my actual given name also refers to light Lux seemed like a good pseudo

And thank you for the welcome!

KittensRule.. - thank you too! (hah I dont know how many times I just stared and stared at your avatar lol). For the TWOW chapter, well it only fuels the impatience to read it!..

As a more general question, while lurking, I saw references made to a Reading Women thread: is it "over"? And, as one my favorite themes in the saga - again, especially with Dany and Sansa - is how they learn to take control of their sexuality, was it tackled comparatively with all the female characters??

The Reading Women thread isn't over at all. It comes and goes as there are different topics brought to to it. If there is something you want to talk about when it comes to the female characters in the story, its a great place to do it. I guarantee this topic would get lots of response, including from many posters in this thread.

[Ragnorak]

I posted the Sansa Snow Castle in its own thread with some additional thoughts. Didn't want to derail the conversation here.

[Lux Starkgaryen]

brashcandy: your avatar is awesome; god that icy look, and they say she's not a Stark..

Thanks everyone for the link towards the Reading Women, I think I'll have some more reading to do!! A comparative study in sexual agency between Dany and Sansa would please me so much, alas I can't see it being complete before, well, the books are all out..? Anyhoo, gonna get me some of that Reading Women thread!

Ps: Lady Lea: seriously?! what are parents thinking sometimes.. well, remember that Depp in Johnny Depp means something like "stupid" in german so.. xD

[Lyanna Stark]

I posted the Sansa Snow Castle in its own thread with some additional thoughts. Didn't want to derail the conversation here.

'

Amazing thread. :) Really liking the theories in there and the symbolism. I always felt that chapter and Sansa's coming down from the Eyrie were shock full with symbolism and it's great to see what people can dig out.

[Lux Starkgaryen]

To come back to Sansa, something I'd like to ask you (I dont remember it being properly discussed but I could be wrong and have missed it!) is an hypothetic relationship with Jaime. If we consider he'll still be alive at the end - and that's a big If! - and taking into account one of the most accepted theories (he could be the valonqar and be the one to kill Cersei), even without taking into account who would then be on the throne etc, I can see him leaving the KG. He would then be free to take a wife..

Many of us think Brienne, Jaime, Sandor and Sansa may well be all linked together for a future reunion but, as much as I love Sansan, I see it more like the development of who Sansa will be as a woman, therefore linked with the discovery of her desires, even sexually: maybe the first love, anyway the "first time" why not, the kind of relationship, passionate but not meant to function in the long term. That would fit the Beauty and the Beast theme (aside Tyrion.. but that's another story!!) So if Sansan would be "only" linked with the private life of Sansa, there still remains here life "after": after she's learn that "life is not a song", that the monsters live, etc and that the "true knight", if he exists, isnt the one you would think. And that would be interesting concerning Jaime: from the golden boy he was to the kingslayer to the LC of the KG on a redeeming arc without a swordhand and his golden hair.. What if Sandor dies (saving her for example), could she then settle for Jaime, in a quiet relationship? This is absolutly not a fanfic message, just a rant of what could happen between them. With Martin and his famous "bittersweet ending", Sansa could end up politically powerful OR not but, men-wise, having lost her Hound but still having had an end to their connection; and live with a maimed man whose last name is Lannister.. She would still remember Sandor, while Jaime would still "honor" Cersei in his way: not "knowing" another woman, but being kind to Sansa.

Of course this doesnt seem like a good end for Sansa if she doesnt love him: what about the children she wants; would she be back in WF etc; what about by the end of the big Others-Men battle, the "Game" reemerges, and the different Houses already start to plot to get the better of th post-war situation, a Stark-Lannister arrangement could be useful, while they could both like and respect the other?..

Ok I am ranting now so I'll just stop - I guess an interaction between those two just intringues me :)

[brashcandy]

Hmmm, Sansa and Jaime... from my perspective a relationship between the two wouldn't be believable given what we know of the characters and their storylines so far. Plus, he's a Lannister, and even though he and Sansa might come to develop a cordial relationship if they do meet up, I don't ever see her wanting to be tied to that family in a personal sense.

Many of us think Brienne, Jaime, Sandor and Sansa may well be all linked together for a future reunion but, as much as I love Sansan, I see it more like the development of who Sansa will be as a woman, therefore linked with the discovery of her desires, even sexually: maybe the first love, anyway the "first time" why not, the kind of relationship, passionate but not meant to function in the long term. That would fit the Beauty and the Beast theme (aside Tyrion.. but that's another story!!)

This isn't the first time I've seen this perspective on Sansan's relationship and I have to wonder why people consider it to be this "burn hot, cool fast" type of union? :) I mean I agree that it's passionate, in that you have two people who challenge one another and bring each other out of their respective comfort zones etc etc, but the passion doesn't truly spark until they're separated and we see Sansa's continuous thoughts about him and his own regrets. IMO the relationship can function in the long term precisely because it's been gradually developing over a period of time, and they managed to establish a foundation of trust and respect before anything else took place. We've also been able to "see" Sansa with other people - Joffrey/Loras/Willas/Tyrion - and experience the range of emotions each of these relationships elicited in her, from naive infatuation to embittered unhappiness. I'm saying all this to say that although she's still very young, Sansa isn't inexperienced when it comes to love and desire, and I don't think her relationship with Sandor can be characterised as the "first love" variety with all the heady, reckless abandonment that implies. And that's probably why the "Beauty and the Beast" fairytale endures isn't it? I mean, it's not love at first sight or fitting a foot in a glass slipper type relationship. It's about a real process of discovery, painful and distressing at times, but ultimately more substantive and realistic because of it.

[The Snowman]

Many of us think Brienne, Jaime, Sandor and Sansa may well be all linked together for a future reunion but, as much as I love Sansan, I see it more like the development of who Sansa will be as a woman, therefore linked with the discovery of her desires, even sexually: maybe the first love, anyway the "first time" why not, the kind of relationship, passionate but not meant to function in the long term. That would fit the Beauty and the Beast theme (aside Tyrion.. but that's another story!!) So if Sansan would be "only" linked with the private life of Sansa, there still remains here life "after": after she's learn that "life is not a song", that the monsters live, etc and that the "true knight", if he exists, isnt the one you would think. And that would be interesting concerning Jaime: from the golden boy he was to the kingslayer to the LC of the KG on a redeeming arc without a swordhand and his golden hair.. What if Sandor dies (saving her for example), could she then settle for Jaime, in a quiet relationship? This is absolutly not a fanfic message, just a rant of what could happen between them. With Martin and his famous "bittersweet ending", Sansa could end up politically powerful OR not but, men-wise, having lost her Hound but still having had an end to their connection; and live with a maimed man whose last name is Lannister.. She would still remember Sandor, while Jaime would still "honor" Cersei in his way: not "knowing" another woman, but being kind to Sansa.

Jeez having Jaime Lannister, Brienne of Tarth, Sandor of House badass and Sansa Stark as an awesome foursome (just a group of people nothing else!)

would be cool. Sadly I think Sandor is going to never marry and destroy the name of Clegane (hey that rhymed :) )

I think that if Sansa survives this series she will marry someone for love or someone for duty for her family.