From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IX

[The Mother of The Others]

It doesn't have to be a wedding that brings them together. Just dropping like flies will eventually cause them to signal retreat and gather together at the Twins for safety to ride out the storm. That's where Cat gets' em. And the Frey's knee jerk reaction to fall back to the Twins is what will leave Emmon stranded alone at Riverrun with limited support. Easy pickins.

[Kittykatknits]

Ha I had totally forgotten about that I Am No Man bit. That's great and it all does fit with the Red Wedding 2.0 theory. Is it too much to hope for though that not many children and women or those "innocent" in the first red wedding will be killed? I'd hate to think of the BWB and the Stark name being associated with something equally as horrible as the first Red Wedding. If it turns out to be like the first red wedding, then I seriously hope that we won't see Sansa or any of the Stark kids involved in any way. Though, maybe I am being as idealistic as Arya in hoping for this.

I agree it will be a bloodbath. The Freys showed no mercy to their guests so I don't think the North's revenge is going to be pretty. However, some of the women and children will probably be spared to go to the Wall or the Silent Sisters. What I don't think will happen is that any Frey is left alive and free.

The Riverlands may well be where Sansa goes next as yes, it's closer to the Vale and it also has the potential for bringing Sansa into contact with Dany (thanks for pointing that out, Gobiel!) and I so want that to happen.

Considering it was supposed to be a trilogy, I don't think the number of books will be determined until it is done.

I don't think too many non-soldiers were killed. Robb was marching to war and only brought the expected guests like his mother.

But, yeah, Lady Lea is right.

I don't think so. Simply put, I believe Cat died at the RW. And once you're dead, there is no coming back. Stoneheart is a twisted creation of magic. The BWB, while once good, are being corrupted by her.

I don't consider her coming atrocities to be representative of the North, House Stark, or even Cat. She's basically an advanced wight.

I mostly agree that the Cat we know is gone but I think some of her is still left. The Inn at the Crossroads had been turned in to an orphanage because of LS. So, there is still some compassion left in here. The question is whether that would extend to the woman and children of Freys/Lannisters. I'm not sure.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I mostly agree that the Cat we know is gone but I think some of her is still left. The Inn at the Crossroads had been turned in to an orphanage because of LS. So, there is still some compassion left in here. The question is whether that would extend to the woman and children of Freys/Lannisters. I'm not sure.

I see it as a degenerative effect that gets worse as it goes on. I think Lemoncloak taking the Hound helmet which has become representative of evil is a sign of this. Assuming Sandor is alive and with EB, he is losing a lot of hate after giving it up. Rogre and Biter were even more blatantly evil than the Sandor who was more anti-hero/doing evil things because of orders. Lemmy taking the Hound persona suggests the BWB is becoming worse and will go farther than killing a whole bunch of Freys.

Sure, Stoneheart might have started an orphanage, but that is more of a corruption of what was good with Cat and BWB. It's been a while since I read it, but I remember finding it rather unsettling. Orphanages might be helpful to children, but they can also be used to train children as the next generation without outside influences.

Honestly, I pity the BWB and Cat. Because even though I think Stonheart is something completely different, it's a shame Cat will be attached to her.

[ARYa_Nym]

Ha I had totally forgotten about that I Am No Man bit. That's great and it all does fit with the Red Wedding 2.0 theory. Is it too much to hope for though that not many children and women or those "innocent" in the first red wedding will be killed? I'd hate to think of the BWB and the Stark name being associated with something equally as horrible as the first Red Wedding. If it turns out to be like the first red wedding, then I seriously hope that we won't see Sansa or any of the Stark kids involved in any way. Though, maybe I am being as idealistic as Arya in hoping for this.

Arya wants them all dead. She didn't put them on her list because she doesn't know their names.

"Ser Gregor, it went. "Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling, Ser Illyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei." She would have whispered the names of the Freys of the Crossing too, if she had known them. One day I'll know, she told herself, and then I'll kill them all."

[The Mother of The Others]

I see it as a degenerative effect that gets worse as it goes on. I think Lemoncloak taking the Hound helmet which has become representative of evil is a sign of this.

Ah, the other option. Have a Return of the Jedi moment where Darth (BWB) changes sides during the moment of truth. Jaime's cries while being tortured (his very specific appeals to their good sides) could remind the BWB that they don't like who they've become and this is their last chance to change back and be King's Men again by listening to the preacher man Jaime who has gone through a dark patch himself but who managed to emerge into the light. He could become their sheppherd as they attempt to do the same. That, I suppose, would oust Cat. She could still star in her own spinoff sitcom, though. After we forget about her and lose track of what she's doing, whe could just emerge from the shadows in Walder's throne room and get right down to business acting on her own. Also, imagine I said something about Sansa.

[Kittykatknits]

Sure, Stoneheart might have started an orphanage, but that is more of a corruption of what was good with Cat and BWB. It's been a while since I read it, but I remember finding it rather unsettling. Orphanages might be helpful to children, but they can also be used to train children as the next generation without outside influences.

I think we may even see a split with the BWB. I think it's Feast that shows the two separate factions in the appendix. I don't have the book with me so can't easily look right now.

What left you unsettled about the orphanage? I have not heard that perspective before so you have me curious. The sheer number of orphans left me unsettled but I appreciated that something was being done.

[Brony Stark]

I think we may even see a split with the BWB. I think it's Feast that shows the two separate factions in the appendix. I don't have the book with me so can't easily look right now.

What left you unsettled about the orphanage? I have not heard that perspective before so you have me curious. The sheer number of orphans left me unsettled but I appreciated that something was being done.

IIRC One faction is led by Ned Dayne and the other by Stoneheart.

Also I believe he is getting at 'The orphanage could be used to train future brotherhood members'

[Kittykatknits]

IIRC One faction is led by Ned Dayne and the other by Stoneheart.

Is that who it is? I couldn't remember if it was him or Thoros.

Also I believe he is getting at 'The orphanage could be used to train future brotherhood members'

Yeah, I got that. I was wondering if there was something specific in the text that lead to that conclusion that I may have missed.

[HopeForSpring]

No, Thoros is still with Lady Stoneheart and demoralized by the experience :(

What would Sansa think of poor UnCat? Do people want them to meet?

ETA: Is Tom O'Seven with the Dayne faction or the Stoneheart faction or on his own?

[Kittykatknits]

No, Thoros is still with Lady Stoneheart and demoralized by the experience :(

What would Sansa think of poor UnCat? Do people want them to meet?

ETA: Is Tom O'Seven with the Dayne faction or the Stoneheart faction or on his own?

I'm guessing he is with the LS faction but that is just a guess.

In other threads about the BWB, it has been theorized that Thoros will play a role in removing LS from power and possibly saving Jaime from his fate. IIRC, it was based upon his discussions with Brienne after she had been caught.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

What left you unsettled about the orphanage? I have not heard that perspective before so you have me curious. The sheer number of orphans left me unsettled but I appreciated that something was being done.

Several things, admittedly, not all of them unbiased.

It also simply felt like a scene from a horror movie. Signs of death everywhere. Travelers stop by an inn run by unpleasant innkeepers that clearly don't want them there but influenced by money (and food in this case). On one hand, it is reasonable that traumatized children would act this way. On the other, classic horror scenerio. Plus, we know it's connected to an undead abomination.

My auto-anti-Lady Stoneheart sentiments run along this reasoning: I work on the basic assumption that undead =/= resurrection (which has not been done other than maybe Job due to the whole wargs continue on in something else thing). Thus, anything being lead by one is not good or at least will not stay that way. Beric's comments after Sandor beat/killed him suggest that he was paying a toll himself. Stoneheart didn't even show Beric's attempt to hang on to goodness.

For my more biased reasoning:

Never liked Gendry. Never like Lord of Light. Putting the two together justifies my dislike of both.

Gendry was a soldier hiding among the orphanage which supports the training thing some.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Orphanages are used as a trope of fear in Western literature so I can see where one might be suspicious of a Riverlands orphanage, founded by Lady Stoneheart yet! We already have one child soldier in the series (poor Arya) so it's possible there could be more.

I can't remember who noted it in the PtP discussions but it was noted that the Riverlands with their vast toll of death and destruction have a lot of potential wights lying around. At this point I'm more wary of an army of undead than an army of orphans. BRAAAIIINS... maybe LS is just the tip of the iceberg. I think we are getting to the point in the story where the Stark siblings (I include Jon here regardless of R + L = J because Jon was raised as Sansa's sibling) will have to contend with more supernatural nasties than Lannisters and Freys (though I still want to see them all go DOWN. Minus Jaime).

I can't begin to imagine what Sansa might think if she meets UnCat. O_o Poor girl. There is, however, a part of me who would love to see Petyr meet UnCat.

[Pod The Impaler]

I can't begin to imagine what Sansa might think if she meets UnCat. O_o Poor girl. There is, however, a part of me who would love to see Petyr meet UnCat.

YES ! :devil:

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Actually, when I think about it, there is a LOT of me who wants to see Petyr meet UnCat! :D Especially if Sansa can keep her composure enough to tell ZombieMom what Aunt Lysa said:

"Hey mom, there's someone I want you to meet. Someone who told Lysa to poison her husband and frame the Lannisters. You remember Petyr Baelish? That's the someone I'm talking about! Hey, Petyr, meet the woman you've been carrying a torch for..."

This would be EPIC.

And it works on so many levels. Sansa could keep her hands clean - all she'd have to do is hand over Petyr to LS and the BWB - and the look on Petyr's face when he sees UnCat would be deeply gratifying.

[Lady Lea]

If the White Walkers go past the Wall (like most of us seem to think they will), would UnCat become a wight? Is she a dead body reanimated by magic, or *revived* by magic and therefore technically alive? so much weirdness

[The Mother of The Others]

If it turns into a zombie movie the orphanage will be the cliche boarded up farmhouse under attack by undead hordes! Thoros Zombies are like a different brand name of zombie than the ones the Others make, so Cat shouldn't get possessed by the Walkers or anything like that. She's an independent contractor, non-union.

[brashcandy]

I've been reading some posts lately on Margaery Tyrell and it struck me just how we never really consider Margaery as a fairly tragic example of how women are used as pawns to further the interest of their families without much regard to what they might personally want. LF tells Sansa in ASOS:

The old woman understood something else as well. Her son was determined to make Margaery a queen and for that he needed a king... but he did not need Joffrey. We shall have another wedding soon wait and see. Margaery will marry Tommen. She'll keep her queenly crown and her maidenhead, neither of which she especially wants, but does that matter? The great western alliance will be preserved ... for a time, at least.

If we can take LF's assessment here as fairly factual, it highlights the dangers Sansa herself escaped from in KL, but which she's under threat of facing once again with Harry the Heir. Even when women can make adjustments to their oppressive duties, as in the case of killing Joffrey, there's still a price to be paid which requires the negation of one's true desires. We don't know if Marg has a paramour or if there might have been someone back in Highgarden she was in love with, but we do know that her personal feelings matter very little to her father's overall objective. This is why I think there's a danger in the opinion that Sansa should marry HtH and try to control him from the inside, giving herself some some small authority and agency. It seems as though Martin is giving us a comprehensive set of examples to explore when we consider what Sansa's options could be going forward, and all of them seem to be highlighting the need for a complete break from these kinds of arrangements. It's also interesting the reaction Sansa has when she learns of what will happen to Margaery:

Margaery and Tommen. Sansa did not know what to say. She had liked Margaery Tyrell, and her small grandmother as well. She thought wistfully of Highgarden with its courtyards and musicians, and the pleasure barges on the Mander; a far cry from this bleak shore. At least I am safe here, Joffrey is dead, he cannot hurt me anymore, and I am only a bastard girl now. Alayne Stone has no husband and no claim. And her aunt would soon be here as well. The long nightmare of King's Landing was behind her, and her mockery of a marriage as well. She could make herself a new home here, just as Petyr said.

She may have longed for a lively environment like Highgarden in contrast to the "bleak shore" of the Fingers, but it's notable what is really attractive to her here: freedom from a restrictive claim that requires her to be in an unfulfilling relationship. Margaery may be a queen, but Sansa realises that real power lies in having independent authority over one's life.

[Vampire Squid]

I mostly agree that the Cat we know is gone but I think some of her is still left. The Inn at the Crossroads had been turned in to an orphanage because of LS. So, there is still some compassion left in here. The question is whether that would extend to the woman and children of Freys/Lannisters. I'm not sure.

The BwB were checking with LS whether the Frey hanged in ASoS's epilogue was at the Red Wedding, so there's some evidence that she at least started out with some idea of justice (plus she's only died once, so hasn't lost as much of herself to the fire as Beric did).

[brashcandy]

I should note here as well that this is why I don't think it matters if Harry the Heir was the sweetest, most charming (and he must have considerable charms given his track record with baby making) guy in the world. The issue is no longer in the type of man Sansa desires, but the kind of life she wants to have.

***

I'd like to propose a couple questions for additional discussion:

- Harry the Heir - do you guys agree that it doesn't matter if he turns out to be pretty nice, or do you think this could have an impact on Sansa's decision?

- Littlefinger - it's been posited that she should be showing more resistance to him. Is Martin repressing Sansa's radical potential or just developing it slowly and realistically?

[Dr. Pepper]

I've been reading some posts lately on Margaery Tyrell and it struck me just how we never really consider Margaery as a fairly tragic example of how women are used as pawns to further the interest of their families without much regard to what they might personally want. LF tells Sansa in ASOS:

<snip>

I do think it's unfair with how women are used as pawns, but I think it's just as unfair how men and boys are used as pawns to further the interests of their families. We don't really know how Margaery felt about marrying Renly, Joffrey and Tommen to further her family interest. She may have wanted it, she may love it and she may have actually worked closely with Olenna or Mace to further her own desires. We don't know how Tommen feels about being married to Marg. At this point, he's 10 (?) so he probably doesn't understand what marriage means and might view it more like having a cool grown-up female to have a child-like crush on. What will he think of it when he reaches puberty or adulthood?

I think it's tragic how males and females are used as pawns by their parents or the political machine.

I'd like to propose a couple questions for additional discussion:

- Harry the Heir - do you guys agree that it doesn't matter if he turns out to be pretty nice, or do you think this could have an impact on Sansa's decision?

- Littlefinger - it's been posited that she should be showing more resistance to him. Is Martin repressing Sansa's radical potential or just developing it slowly and realistically?

I think HtH's personality could have a considerable impact on Sansa's decision. It could turn out that this is the type of partner she truly desires. I don't think she'll go into it with the child-like naivety that she once had. A winning personality and a charming smile probably won't mean much if his interests don't align with her own.

I think Martin has been developing Sansa's radical growth and potential at a very realistic pace. It would be unbelievable if she were suddenly slapping him to prevent the kisses (not to mention it would make her hopeful escape from his clutches that much more difficult). Most changes we see with Sansa has been internal, and it continues to be that way. We catch glimpses of her resistance (such as with the "lies and arbor gold" remark) and there is very much the feel that she is preparing herself to make a move now that she's down from the prison-like structure of the Eyrie.