Why did they do that? (A thread about characters mistakes)

[MarcherLord]

Theon - Staying in Winterfell and not returning to the II as a conquering hero with two noble hostages in tow

Everyone on the mainland - not desposing the Greyjoys as Highlords of the II, not crippling the II's military potential, not trying to phase out the "Old Way" and the religion that went with it

[Pod The Impaler]

This thread is about the subject of some characters mistakes. Whether it be tactical errors, political choices, getting banged, it doesn't matter.

Let me begin

Tywin Lannister: Why did he underestimate Robb?

In Game of Thrones after it's reported that Robb's host is at Moat Cailln, he dismisses the threat with

practically saying that Robb's not a threat because he's young. This from the man who wiped two houses off the map when he was sixteen. Does Tywin listen to his own song? He himself proved that even an untried general can win a campaign.

Indeed, why dismiss the young lads ? The Targaryens were deposed by Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark, not a bunch of greybeards.

Will the young leaders make mistakes, sometimes. Youthful mistakes. But are those worse than old-man mistakes ?

Why didn't Balon take Robb's offer and attack Lannisport and Casterly Rock? The alliance between the independence seeking Northmen and Ironborn would have made a lot of sense, and would have been badass as hell. But no. :crying:

Dammit Balon! You fucked it up for everyone!

Balon's folly is among the worst of the whole series - his son returns, bearing with him an offer which gives him the best chance to actually achieve the very legitimized kingdom which he once rebelled for. And he rejects it !

Dunce move.

[Pod The Impaler]

Mine is:

Why didn't Danaerys put the elite of Mereen to the sword when she conquered it? She should have done to it what she did to Astapor. The city didn't yield like Yunkai, it had to be invaded / overthrown. The former slaves can love you - the former master never will.

[StarkWhite]

No, not really. In the books I've read, Sansa's disobedience resulted in her own capture and the deaths of her father and his entourage were the result of her father's "honor" and Littlefinger's betrayal.

Oh you must have read the ACoK that didn't have a Tyrion POV expressing his disbelief at her betrayal when Cersei all but says it was due to Sansa, or any other mention of it for that matter. I'm not sure which release that was.

[The Mother of Dragons]

Daenerys staying in Meereen. Daenerys marrying Hizdahr. Daenerys not marrying Quentyn. Daenerys not doing ANYTHING.

[Nausicaä]

Oh you must have read the ACoK that didn't have a Tyrion POV expressing his disbelief at her betrayal when Cersei all but says it was due to Sansa, or any other mention of it for that matter. I'm not sure which release that was.

No, actually my ACOK had that chapter. Only in it, it was a lie and Tyrion was told by Cersei that it was due to Sansa because she couldn't tell him about her meeting with Eddard in the godswood, since at that point, her relationship with Jaime was still supposed to be a secret. Tyrion only reveals to her that he knows she and Jaime are fucking in the next chapter, but despite that, he never finds out about the godswood meeting. For that matter, Tyrion has a lot of false impressions about Sansa — he thinks she is a vapid girl, who might be stupid and open enough to tell her maids about what happened on their wedding night, while we as readers know that would never happen, or that her behavior on Joffrey/Margaery's wedding could be because she's jealous of Margaery, while we know that she's distracted because her escape plan is to be carried out that night and she worried for Margaery and was never jalous of her. A good thing we have all those context clues and other POVs to tell us that the things Tyrion hears and sees and his interpretations of them are not always accurate, huh?

[StarkWhite]

No, actually my ACOK had that chapter. Only in it, it was a lie and Tyrion was told by Cersei that it was due to Sansa because she couldn't tell him about her meeting with Eddard in the godswood, since at that point, her relationship with Jaime was still supposed to be a secret. Tyrion only reveals to her that he knows she and Jaime are fucking in the next chapter, but despite that, he never finds out about the godswood meeting. For that matter, Tyrion has a lot of false impressions about Sansa — he thinks she is a vapid girl, who might be stupid and open enough to tell her maids about what happened on their wedding night, while we as readers know that would never happen, or that her behavior on Joffrey/Margaery's wedding could be because she's jealous of Margaery, while we know that she's distracted because her escape plan is to be carried out that night and she worried for Margaery and was never jalous of her. A good thing we have all those context clues and other POVs to tell us that the things Tyrion hears and sees and his interpretations of them are not always accurate, huh?

You're absolutely incorrect; it's one page later that he refers to his knowledge of their sexual relationship. What does her meeting with Ned in the Godswood have to do with Sansa flapping her pie hole?

[Nausicaä]

You're absolutely incorrect; it's one page later that he refers to his knowledge of their sexual relationship. What does her meeting with Ned in the Godswood have to do with Sansa flapping her pie hole?

Yeah, it was the same chapter, congrats. Could you please explain to me why it matters? It's still Tyrion revealing to her that he knew about their sexual relationship for the first time.

“That fool Eddard Stark accused me of the same thing. He hinted that Lord Arryn suspected or . . . well, believed . . . ”

“That you were fucking our sweet Jaime?”

She slapped him.

“Did you think I was as blind as Father?”

Tyrion rubbed his cheek. “Who you lie with is no matter to me . . . although it doesn’t seem quite just that you should open your legs for one brother and not the other.”

The reason she lied to him about Sansa telling her her father's plans and didn't tell him about the meeting doesn't change. And the meeting has everything to do with Sansa, because Sansa "flapping her pie hole" had no consequences other than her own capture and Ned's "flapping" of his (during that meeting, which happened because he thought he had proof of the incest) resulted in his death. Sansa knew nothing of Ned's plans, except for when she was to be sent from KL. The timeline shows that her words couldn't have seriously affected Cersei's actions, which were planned according to what she found out from Ned three days before and LF the previous day/night.

I would love to see some quotes of the other mentions you were talking about here, by the way:

Oh you must have read the ACoK that didn't have a Tyrion POV expressing his disbelief at her betrayal when Cersei all but says it was due to Sansa, or any other mention of it for that matter. I'm not sure which release that was.

Were they by any chance from Cersei in AFFC/ADWD? When she honestly thinks to herself that Sansa betrayed her after they treated her so sweetly? Refresh my memory, please.

[StarkWhite]

Yeah, it was the same chapter, congrats. Could you please explain to me why it matters? It's still Tyrion revealing to her that he knew about their sexual relationship for the first time.

The reason she lied to him about Sansa telling her her father's plans and didn't tell him about the meeting doesn't change. And the meeting has everything to do with Sansa, because Sansa "flapping her pie hole" had no consequences other than her own capture and Ned's "flapping" of his (during that meeting, which happened because he thought he had proof of the incest) resulted in his death. Sansa knew nothing of Ned's plans, except for when she was to be sent from KL. The timeline shows that her words couldn't have seriously affected Cersei's actions, which were planned according to what she found out from Ned three days before and LF the previous day/night.

I would love to see some quotes of the other mentions you were talking about here, by the way:

Were they by any chance from Cersei in AFFC/ADWD? When she honestly thinks to herself that Sansa betrayed her after they treated her so sweetly? Refresh my memory, please.

Defensive much? I'm cooking bacon I'll get back to you I know, I know, oh oh oh!

[Pod The Impaler]

Here's another from the beginning of the story...

Why did King Robert being his entire family up North with him ?

This isn't like jetting off to Ibiza, or driving an RV to Banff.

Even with a small army going with you, travel in that sort of era is a hazardous thing. Well, if ever there was a chance for a decapitating strike on the crown, this would be it. If there should be harsh weather or some ill-chance sees some dread disease strike the procession. Plus, you'll be away from the capital for months - and there's no Hand there to rule it - just your cocky younger brother and a bunch of schemers.

Yet, Robert put all his royal eggs in one basket: himself, Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen (and Jaime and Tyrion).

Why not just leave your wife in the capital, or go with only Joffrey ? Or just yourself and Cersei ? Or yourself and Joffrey and the Hound, Barristan and Tyrion ?

I don't know why he would risk that much on a journey to the furthest reaches of his realm, even to offer Ned the Hand position and the marriage.

[StarkWhite]

Yeah, it was the same chapter, congrats. Could you please explain to me why it matters? It's still Tyrion revealing to her that he knew about their sexual relationship for the first time.

The first mistake you made, but not the last. Great, he mentioned it afterwards, and grats to you as well, but that has nothing to do with Sansa deliberately going to Cersei, and as luck would have it Karma intervened and she's been going through hell since.

The reason she lied to him about Sansa telling her her father's plans and didn't tell him about the meeting doesn't change. And the meeting has everything to do with Sansa, because Sansa "flapping her pie hole" had no consequences other than her own capture and Ned's "flapping" of his (during that meeting, which happened because he thought he had proof of the incest) resulted in his death. Sansa knew nothing of Ned's plans, except for when she was to be sent from KL. The timeline shows that her words couldn't have seriously affected Cersei's actions, which were planned according to what she found out from Ned three days before and LF the previous day/night.

The meeting at the Godswood never came up because it has nothing to do with Sansa going to Cersei.

"How well I know that child" Cersei said...

"Why else should you have come to me and told me of your father's plan to send you away from us" - Cersei to Sansa

I would love to see some quotes of the other mentions you were talking about here, by the way:

Were they by any chance from Cersei in AFFC/ADWD? When she honestly thinks to herself that Sansa betrayed her after they treated her so sweetly? Refresh my memory, please.

"If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans..." - Cersei

(Tyrion): "Truly, his own daughter"? Sansa had always seemed like a sweet child, tender and courteous...

[Nausicaä]

The first mistake you made, but not the last. Great, he mentioned it afterwards, and grats to you as well, but that has nothing to do with Sansa deliberately going to Cersei, and as luck would have it Karma intervened and she's been going through hell since.

"How well I know that, child,” Cersei said, her voice so kind and sweet. “Why else should you have come to me and told me of your father’s plan to send you away from us, if not for love?”

I don't see the point of this post and quote. No one disputed that she disobeyed Ned and went to Cersei to tell her she's being sent away. You said that she got Ned and his men killed by doing that, in addition to getting herself captured. Can you prove that?

Oh you must have read the ACoK that didn't have a Tyrion POV expressing his disbelief at her betrayal when Cersei all but says it was due to Sansa, or any other mention of it for that matter. I'm not sure which release that was.

I would love to see some quotes of the other mentions you were talking about here, by the way:

Were they by any chance from Cersei in AFFC/ADWD? When she honestly thinks to herself that Sansa betrayed her after they treated her so sweetly? Refresh my memory, please.

"If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans..." - Cersei

(Tyrion): "Truly, his own daughter"? Sansa had always seemed like a sweet child, tender and courteous...

That's the mention we are already discussing. I asked for some of the others that talk about her "betrayal" and Ned fate being "due to her".

[StarkWhite]

That's the mention we are already discussing. I asked for some of the others that talk about her "betrayal" and Ned fate being "due to her".

So it wasn't betrayal? How about when she lied to the king and queen about what happened with Nymeria at The Trident? Was that not betrayal either?

Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth.

Yet Sansa in what seems to have been a habit of hers early on betrayed her family to the Baratheons (Lannisters).

And yes, that is the quote we were discussing from my post. Here's some more:

(Cersei): Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans..."

There you have it. What in there is a lie? Could he have been seen having a conversation with Renly, even if they were out of earshot? Certainly. And if so would it be crazy for Cersei to think they could be plotting with one another? Absolutely not. Did Eddard write a letter to Stannis? It's all there in black and white.

Edit: Added "(Lannisters)"

[Nausicaä]

So it wasn't betrayal? How about when she lied to the king and queen about what happened with Nymeria at The Trident? Was that not betrayal either?

Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth.

Yet Sansa in what seems to have been a habit of hers early on betrayed her family to the Baratheons (Lannisters).

No, I personally don't consider that betrayal, but I don't care to argue semantics. We are still arguing whether Sansa got Ned killed by going to Cersei, I hope, so can we go back to that?

And yes, that is the quote we were discussing from my post. Here's some more:

(Cersei): Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans..."

There you have it. What in there is a lie? Could he have been seen having a conversation with Renly, even if they were out of earshot? Certainly. And if so would it be crazy for Cersei to think they could be plotting with one another? Absolutely. Did Eddard write a letter to Stannis? It's all there in black and white.

How is that more? It's still a part of the same scene.

"If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans" is a lie. What do Renly and Stannis have to do with it? Cersei says she might have failed if Sansa hadn't come to her to tell Ned's plans, but Sansa knew no plans, save for when she was to be sent away, so it's a blatant lie. Cersei would have failed if she didn't know about Ned's plans, but she didn't get them from Sansa, she got them from Ned and Littlefinger. Sansa didn't know about Renly or Stannis or that Robert was dead or that succession was in question when she went to Cersei. She didn't know anything, so she couldn't have revealed anything, so she couldn't have changed anything. Except for herself leaving.

[StarkWhite]

No, I personally don't consider that betrayal, but I don't care to argue semantics. We are still arguing whether Sansa got Ned killed by going to Cersei, I hope, so can we go back to that?

Funny thing - what you consider betrayal, that is. Semantics? I swear people don't know the meaning of the word. I've given you ample evidence of what I interpret as her betrayal. People defend her all the time using her age and naïveté as an excuse. Sorry, but my 12 year old wouldn't lie like that, or turn on her family. Perhaps many of the defenders of Sansa don't have a strong family identity. Be that as it may, there's no arguing the fact - she most definitely betrayed her family, for whatever reason. So, let's get back to the "argument" you seem to desire so badly.

How is that more? It's still a part of the same scene.

Quite the observance. Yes, it is MORE of the same scene, outlining the fact that she's telling the truth.

"If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans" is a lie. What do Renly and Stannis have to do with it? Cersei says she might have failed if Sansa hadn't come to her to tell Ned's plans, but Sansa knew no plans, save for when she was to be sent away, so it's a blatant lie. Cersei would have failed if she didn't know about Ned's plans, but she didn't get them from Sansa, she got them from Ned and Littlefinger. Sansa didn't know about Renly or Stannis or that Robert was dead or that succession was in question when she went to Cersei. She didn't know anything, so she couldn't have revealed anything, so she couldn't have changed anything. Except for herself leaving.

No, it isn't a lie. Perhaps this drove her to act more swiftly. Had she not the advanced warning from Sansa of Ned's plans to pull Winterfell out of King's Landing, it can be argued (as is my belief) that she may not have reacted the way she did which resulted in all those deaths that you wish to blame Ned for. And, that is what I garner from her statement. Undoubtedly you have undeniable proof that will show me the way and the light.

This is my opinion. Don't take it so seriously. The world would be one hell of a boring place if everyone agreed on everything. It just so happens that we don't in this case, and your insinuation that my interpretation is wrong (i.e. "No, not really. In the books I've read) is quite pretentious.

[Davos' fingertip]

well i'm surely not the only one on this - WHY THE HELL IS DANY STILL IN MEEREEN? WHY DOES IT MEAN ANYTHING TO HER? Like bitch please, we all know you want to free slaves, but you failed at that, so move on to your main goal. Her staying in Meereen was the stupidest thing ever.

Ned, why u tell Cersei that you know her secrets?

Robb Stark and Lady Catelyn, you know that your badass direwolf can sense trouble, and he CLEARLY warns you against Walder Frey, yet you still move on with the marriage without a thought of betrayal?

[Nausicaä]

No, it isn't a lie. Perhaps this drove her to act more swiftly. Had she not the advanced warning from Sansa of Ned's plans to pull Winterfell out of King's Landing, it can be argued (as is my belief) that she may not have reacted the way she did which resulted in all those deaths that you wish to blame Ned for. And, that is what I garner from her statement. Undoubtedly you have undeniable proof that will show me the way and the light.

So you're saying that if she didn't know Ned was planning to send his daughters back home she wouldn't have ordered his entourage to be killed, despite the fact that they would have tried to get the girls out of the city, even if it wasn't planned, and would fight when Ned was seized, instead of surrendering?

Let's go through the events:

1. Ned and Cersei meet in the godswood. He tells her he knows about the parentage of her children and what happened to Bran. He tells her he will reveal the truth to Robert when he comes back and he wants her and the children to be gone by then and her father and brothers should go with her, because Robert's wrath would follow them. She tells him she doesn't find the prospect of exile very appealing and tells him "you win or you die". She isn't going to leave and she isn't going to let Ned win. That's three days before the girls are supposed to leave the city.

2. One day before the girls are supposed to leave, Robert comes back, injured. He shoos everyone from his room, Ned writes down his will, doesn't tell him about Cersei, calls everyone back. Cersei is gone at that point and Ned thinks that if she has any sense, she will leave the city. He then talks to Renly, hears his plan and refuses. Renly warns him that Cersei will fight if they don't get his children and that every moment Ned spends doing nothing is an extra moment for Cersei to prepare for her strike. Ned doesn't listen. He then talks to Fat Tom, confirms that Sansa and Arya are leavingnext evening with him and twenty men in their escort. He then has Littlefinger brought to him. He tells him what he knows about the incest, Jon's murder and tells him that he plans to make Stannis king. Littlefinger tells him that it would mean Cersei will be hunted down and war for the realm. Ned still tells him that he plans to go ahead with it, tells him that he doesn't have enough men to carry out his plan and asks him for help. LF says he will go to buy the Gold Cloaks that very hour. Some time between this and the events the next morning, LF and Cersei meet and talk.

3. Next morning Ned has breakfast with the girls. He lets Arya go train with Syrio and bans Sansa from going to Joffrey, after which she decides to go first to Robert, then to Cersei. Ned tells them they should be ready to leave by midday. An hour after the breakfast, he gets the news about Robert's death from Pycelle, who tries to convince him to wait till tomorrow with the affairs of the realm. Ned refuses and Pycelle sends his servants to inform Littlefinger, Varys, Renly and Barristan. If Cersei didn't know about the death before that (that's Cersei and Pycelle we are taking about), she knows now. They come, save for Renly and almost immediately comes the royal steward, informing them that Joffrey summons them to the court. Ned says he "expected Cersei to strike quickly" and so they go. When they get there, the gold cloaks strike everyone in Ned's escort, including the men who were supposed to be escorting Arya and Sansa out of the city, and LF tells him he warned him not to trust him.

What we get from it:

1. Ned informed Cersei of his knowledge of the incest and his plans to exile her

2. Ned informed LF of his knowledge of the incest and his plans to seat Stannis on the throne

3. Ned informed LF that he has no means to protect himself, if he doesn't get the Gold Cloaks

4. LF bought the Gold Cloaks the night before the encouter

5. LF cooperated with Cersei, the day or the night before the encounter

How Cersei reacted when Ned marched in with that letter was planned in advance. It happened because she knew Ned wanted to dethrone Joffrey and seat Stannis in his place and it happened when it happened because they both had to strike right after Robert died to win and she was informed about his death right away.

Sansa went to Cersei after the breakfast the day she was supposed to be sent away, while no one who was supposed to be leaving was ready. She went there knowing only the time when she would be sent away and that her betrothal was about to be broken. She didn't even find out that Robert died and Ned didn't find out Sansa was locked up, so little time have passed.

That's what you call "advanced warning"? Why do you think that changed how Cersei acted? How exactly is that information so important? How do you think Cersei would have acted if she wasn't told by Sansa "I'm leaving in a few hours", while being informed of literally everything else that was about to happen? I'm genuinely curious.

[StarkWhite]

So you're saying that if she didn't know Ned was planning to send his daughters back home she wouldn't have ordered his entourage to be killed, despite the fact that they would have tried to get the girls out of the city, even if it wasn't planned, and would fight when Ned was seized, instead of surrendering?

That's what you call "advanced warning"? Why do you think that changed how Cersei acted? How exactly is that information so important? How do you think Cersei would have acted if she wasn't told by Sansa "I'm leaving in a few hours", while being informed of literally everything else that was about to happen? I'm genuinely curious.

Well, no one can refute your ability to post chronological events.

No, as a matter of fact I didn't say: "if she didn't know Ned was planning to send his daughters back home she wouldn’t have ordered his entourage to be killed", as you can plainly see by the absence of text which resembles this in any manner contained within any of my posts. And yes, she had some advanced warning of some of Ned's plans that she didn't prior to Sansa's visit as can be easily read in black and white. Also, had events unraveled a bit differently and Ned hadn't been captured, Cersei had Sansa as captive to use as a pawn against him. Additionally, your obvious blindness to any mistakes Sansa has made, or denial of them; whatever motivates your conscious decision to discredit the truth of them makes it plainly obvious you are unwilling to even consider alternate theories which differ from your own, even when you’re incorrect despite your assertion of being "genuinely curious".

[Nausicaä]

Well, no one can refute your ability to post chronological events.

No, as a matter of fact I didn't say: "if she didn't know Ned was planning to send his daughters back home she wouldn’t have ordered his entourage to be killed", as you can plainly see by the absence of text which resembles this in any manner contained within any of my posts.

Had she not the advanced warning from Sansa of Ned's plans to pull Winterfell out of King's Landing, it can be argued (as is my belief) that she may not have reacted the way she did which resulted in all those deaths that you wish to blame Ned for.

Come again?

And yes, she had some advanced warning of some of Ned's plans that she didn't prior to Sansa's visit as can be easily read in black and white. Also, had events unraveled a bit differently and Ned hadn't been captured, Cersei had Sansa as captive to use as a pawn against him.

That's not what you said, though. You said that if it wasn't for Sansa, those deaths may not have happened. And besides, if Ned wasn't captured (I guess you don't want to explain how that could have happened at that point), Cersei would still have Sansa, because the Gold Cloaks and Lannister men went to capture the girls when Ned went to the throne room and if Sansa wasn't already locked up by that point, the Hound would have captured her in the Tower of the Hand, like he did with Jeyne Poole. It wasn't anywhere close to the midday by which the girls were supposed to be ready leave, so while Sansa managed to get herself captured sooner and directly, it's very likely that she would have been captured anyway. Fat Tom and most of the guards and men in her escort being dead and all.

You keep telling me I'm incorrect, yet you aren't showing me this by answering any of my questions about how the events could have gone, if Sansa didn't make her mistakes. I can and do consider alternate theories, it's just that when I considered the "Cersei may not have reacted as swiftly/may have reacted differently if Sansa hadn't gone to her", I found it ridiculous, because Sansa's actions did not affect hers, at least as far as Ned and his men were concerned, which my posting of the chronological events should show.

[StarkWhite]

Well I suppose then we'll end it at a stalemate, where you choose not to explain your ridiculous denial of the fact that Sansa betrayed her blood on more than one occasion, and where I seem to insufficiently respond to you as well. Toodles my dear :)