Robb Stark's sudden change of character...

[Winter's Knight]

more like "the same reason Lord Karstark executed the Lannister squires". Its one thing to kill an enemy in battle, as Balon's older sons died. Its another to execute an enemy in cold blood the way Joffrey did. Not to mention Balon's own life was spared.

Ned confessed to treason and was executed for it-all square and above the law.

ha so marry the woman he loves to one of his bannermen and then if all turns out well all you have to see is her with her husband, youll probably end up making him a cuckold and her husband an enemy and your own marriage will never be happy because you have a constant reminder of what youv lost and cant have. Dont think that will work

Well, so much for honour, eh?

He placed his own carnal desires above an oath he made as King-n a world where marriage alliances hold whole kingdoms together,how do you think that looks?

The price paid for the Crossing was always too much. Walder should be happy to see his grandson as lord paramount of the riverlands but he has to be the vindictive killer

The price wasn't that high-the Freys as a House are on par with the Florents, who frequently marry into the Great Houses. Seeing as Robb was still unattached at fifteen, one can assume that there weren't many suitable females of his standing available.

Besides, the Westerliings are a much lower House than the Freys.

[Naathi Prince]

Ned confessed to treason and was executed for it-all square and above the law.

lol

[Frey Pie]

Ned confessed to treason and was executed for it-all square and above the law.

Well, so much for honour, eh?

He placed his own carnal desires above an oath he made as King-n a world where marriage alliances hold whole kingdoms together,how do you think that looks?

The price wasn't that high-the Freys as a House are on par with the Florents, who frequently marry into the Great Houses. Seeing as Robb was still unattached at fifteen, one can assume that there weren't many suitable females of his standing available.

Besides, the Westerliings are a much lower House than the Freys.

Above the law for anyone who isnt a bit dim. Most of Westeros knows Ned would never betray Robert. In any case id say the whole Cersei screaming at Joff to stop and the general "oh know he didnt" kinda made it seem that something fishy was going on.

Do you really think many of the lords in Westeros hold to those oaths? The Starks are some of the only ones who seem to and i actually regret saying Robb would cuckold her hypothetical husband. He probably wouldnt but it would be a temptation given that he loves her

The Freys got a bit much nearly everyone agrees. Arya and Robb to marry. Maybe just Arya. Two boys to raise like family, squires etc. Especially considering its Walders duty to follow Robb to save his liege lord so....ya id say its pretty hefty

[Jolene Brown]

It really isn't Cat's fault. Releasing known oathbreaker Jaime ON AN OATH is her fault but not Jayne.

Didn't he say himself he planned to KEEP his oath and release Sansa, and "the younger one, if she could be found", even before losing his hand? Something about how it would amuse him to keep faith where everyone expected betrayal or something like that. Whether Tywin would have allowed it is another question.

[Stag's Fury]

ha so marry the woman he loves to one of his bannermen and then if all turns out well all you have to see is her with her husband, youll probably end up making him a cuckold and her husband an enemy and your own marriage will never be happy because you have a constant reminder of what youv lost and cant have. Dont think that will work

The price paid for the Crossing was always too much. Walder should be happy to see his grandson as lord paramount of the riverlands but he has to be the vindictive killer

It doesn't matter that Walder's price was too high. Robbery agreed to it, Robbery crossed the Twins, it's his responsibility to stick with his side of the bargain no matter what. Sure Walder is despicable for violating guest rights, but if Walder declared open war on the Starks after Robb wed Jeyne I wouldn't have any problem with it at all. If you think the price is too high, walk away, you can't just enter into a "contract" and tthen says oh hey the price is too ridiculous i'm gonna ignore my part.

[Winter's Knight]

Do you really think many of the lords in Westeros hold to those oaths? The Starks are some of the only ones who seem to and i actually regret saying Robb would cuckold her hypothetical husband. He probably wouldnt but it would be a temptation given that he loves her

Oaths on marriage? Of course they do, their entire society's stability is based on it. You have the Stark/Tully alliance, the Martell/Lannister marriage, Tyrell/Baratheon etc.

Notice how angry and humiliated Tywin was when Aerys refused to wed Rhaegar to Cersei. Alliances are formed along marriage lines, these oaths are not broken lightly.

The Freys got a bit much nearly everyone agrees. Arya and Robb to marry. Maybe just Arya. Two boys to raise like family, squires etc. Especially considering its Walders duty to follow Robb to save his liege lord so....ya id say its pretty hefty

This would be a valid argument if Robb had married into a House with a higher standing or one that had more to offer-instead he marries into low level noble house loyal to the Lannisters, effectively telling Walder Frey that he'd much rather wed the enemy than take one of his daughters to bride.

[Toos]

Notice how angry and humiliated Tywin was when Aerys refused to wed Rhaegar to Cersei. Alliances are formed along marriage lines, these oaths are not broken lightly.

But Aerys and Tywin didn't have agreement. Tywin suggested but Aerys rejected.

[Ser Hippie]

But Aerys and Tywin didn't have agreement. Tywin suggested but Aerys rejected.

Yes, but Winter was referring to the importance placed on marriages and marriage alliances in Westerosi society, so the point stands. Aerys' rejection of the Cersei-Rhaegar marriage clearly weakened Tywin's attachment to him.

Whether you think Walder Frey got too much out of the deal or not, Robb's violation of the agreement is a very serious matter.

[Frey Pie]

It doesn't matter that Walder's price was too high. Robbery agreed to it, Robbery crossed the Twins, it's his responsibility to stick with his side of the bargain no matter what. Sure Walder is despicable for violating guest rights, but if Walder declared open war on the Starks after Robb wed Jeyne I wouldn't have any problem with it at all. If you think the price is too high, walk away, you can't just enter into a "contract" and tthen says oh hey the price is too ridiculous i'm gonna ignore my part.

I didnt say Robb should or could ignore it i merely said Walder price was too high

Oaths on marriage? Of course they do, their entire society's stability is based on it. You have the Stark/Tully alliance, the Martell/Lannister marriage, Tyrell/Baratheon etc.

Stark Tully fair enough. Martell agreed to the marriage while planning to rebel against the ruling King and go for Dany/Aegon. Loras was praying with Renly while Margaery was likely playing away. Of course they bring familys together but my point is that marriage in Westeros isnt concrete fullproof. Both wives and husbands play away as they do in reality. They might marry and then thats it

[Frey Pie]

In any case im not arhuing robb wasnt wrong to violate the oath, rather that its understandable. Nobody commented on the part of my post about Theons betrayal and how it wasnt a bad move really

[Lady of Long Lake]

I think Robb was put into that position with the help of Jeyne's mom, Sybil. She is the granddaughter of Maggy the witch so she may have learned how to drug people with potions and herbs. Why the heck was Jeyne allowed to care for Robb anyways when the family is sworn to the Lannisters- his enemy who he is war with? Jeyne's not a Maester. The KOTN would have guards posted near him because that's common procedure. Theon has 20 men to his name at WF and has guards posted at his bedroom door. The whole "moment of passion" story is suspect.

But once they ended up in bed, Robb acted perfectly in character- like a Stark. Honor made Ned wed Catelyn when he loved another. Honor made Ned take the Hand position when Catelyn asked him to find out who killed her brother in law.

The wedding was in character but the pre-bedding was not.

[Rheagar Prime]

hey they human we all make mistakes some just pay more than others. Rhaegar taking lyanna (or she going with him) which ever one. Brandon not listening Tully and going to KL demanding rhaegar's death. Jon Con not burning down the town to just silence the rebellion, dany trusting a chick that home was just destroyed and was raped to save the leader of those that did it. The list goes on so long it happens man. I do agree that with the starks though damn it affects a crap load of ppl and its all for honour with them, but that just their nature i guess.

[Elder Sister]

I don't see how you could possibly pin Robb's willingness to break his oath to the Freys on Cat. That is the flimsiest, biggest stretch the reader could come up with IMO.

Robb made a decision to have sex with Jeyne Westerling, felt guilty about it later, and decided to break his oath to the Freys and marry her. End of story.

[TooManyFreys]

Okay, uh he JUST figured out that both of his little brothers were killed by his best friend and his castle has been taken by him to boot. You're feverish from an arrow wound an being cared for by a totally hot girl at an age with him. His sleeping with her would've been on par with any teenager in a vulnerable position.

A newly made leader of a continent, who's father was just executed by a "king" who still holds his little sisters as hostages, without knowing whether or not they'll be killed because of an action that he were forced to make BECAUSE his father was taken prisoner.

GRRM is clearly making Robb a real person, rather than the character that he needed to be. Seems old hat for this series ;) not surprised a bit that he is human.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I don't see how you could possibly pin Robb's willingness to break his oath to the Freys on Cat. That is the flimsiest, biggest stretch the reader could come up with IMO.

Robb made a decision to have sex with Jeyne Westerling, felt guilty about it later, and decided to break his oath to the Freys and marry her. End of story.

Yes. Robb was completely at fault here. Young, dumb and horny and thinking with his dick, then too much of an honorable sap to just walk away or marry her off to a bannerman. I don't think even he knew just how bad the fallout would be.

I also blame the Westerlings. They're Lannister loyalists, and Sybelle is an awful person from what we glimpse of her. The Jeyne-comforts-Robb situation may have been a setup on the Westerlings' part.

No, Jeyne was not worth losing a kingdom over. Robb made a mistake - and a very understandable mistake at that, he's sixteen! - but what awful repercussions. :bawl:

[Florina Laufeyson]

Cat had nothing to do with Robb marrying Jeyne. That was all Robb.

(I dont like Cat at all, and oddly enough it has nothing to do with what she said to Jon. I dont like her because..she just...didnt get a grip.)

In fact, Cat was all "Y U MARRY HER!? OMG!!"

I think Robb was all "screw the Freys...im in love!" Because hes young and even the best men make mistakes.

[thetitansbastard]

The bigger mistake was putting his trust in Frey and questioning the decision to bring Grey Wind into battle. He completely adjusts his attitude in regards to his connection with the direwolf. Interestingly, it was actually Catelyn who tried to convince Robb to embrace his bond to Grey Wind. Had he done that, the RW may have been avoided. I still say Frey would have turned on him whether or not he married Jeyne.

[Kittykatknits]

But Aerys and Tywin didn't have agreement. Tywin suggested but Aerys rejected.

Yes, but Winter was referring to the importance placed on marriages and marriage alliances in Westerosi society, so the point stands. Aerys' rejection of the Cersei-Rhaegar marriage clearly weakened Tywin's attachment to him.

Yes, I agree with WK and Ser Hippie here too. Tywin didn't just get upset, he resigned his position as Hand to Aerys as well, a position he had for 15 years that made him the 2nd most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Seriously, why does everyone blame Catelyn for everything?

Because she isn't a silver prince that did it all for love.

[tyrions sliced nose]

Thing that bothers me is how rob saw how Ned raised Jon and in all accounts jon had a very good upbringing at winterfell and there was no reason he couldnt have just taken her along with them and if she got pregnant from that night of passion he couldve raised the bastard fair and good like ned did with jon. He still couldve married the stupid frey girl and had a bastard, shit his whole life he thinks his dad had a bastard dont see why he thought he couldnt have one as well.

Still, having to marry a frey would fucking suck. bugger them all.